Disappointed, Surprised and Annoyed

[TheMule93]

marvin jones is a great player on a good contract (well, this past season at least)

 

[Lil Sebastian Cossa]

Not at all equivalent situations.

The Tigers overpaid, starting with Pudge, because the team had already been lousy for a decade, and nobody was ever going to take their money without an overpayment.

The Lions haven't been a good team in a quarter century, and haven't had a pattern of even decent drafting in nearly that long, so free agency is their last option to add any talent.

The Wings simply didn't want to embrace the reality that they needed to rebuild, even after they were a token playoff team at best, and fought it tooth and nail, even to the point of significant overpayments and excessive distribution of NTCs.

The Wings had offseason after offseason (12-15) where guys did not take their money or they overpaid.

Parise
Suter
The entire defensive FA group in 14
Nielsen
Helm
Green (although 6M was actually a good deal.


The Wings were coming off a huge run where every single story was "bloom is off the rose, Hockeytown no longer a destination".

The only players they were landing were the Modanos and Alfredssons who were past their prime.

 

[Redder Winger]

People weren't mad at Holland for the Vanek trade. They were surprised, disappointed and upset that the best offer he got was a third, but accepted it for what it was. We all understood that no doubt Holland tried to get the best he could.

The same thing would have happened if greener got moved for a relatively low amount compared to what he was projected to get. At least we would have gotten something. Instead we got nothing and hurt our draft position if he returns and gets us even one more win.

People were saying months ago that Green was going to have iffy value.
And that was before the injury, and before Karlsson and McDonagh f***ed the market for Green.

 

[TheMule93]

hopefully nyquist can fetch a similar return to Tatar next deadline. Us moving on from two mediocre wingers who were supposed to be featured players is going to by symbolic of us moving away from mediocrity onto the next generation/core that will lead us to success. I hope.

 

[Pavels Dog]

I think this is a little too surface-level a reading of the article. It starts out saying that the Wings should have traded Green. But the substantive point is not that Holland should have done anything at all to shed Green's contract, it's that Holland has been careless with his contracts and his misplaced loyalty and it's coming back to bite him.

Unfortunately, Holland doesn't seem to care much about rebuilding this team, so it's not biting him. It's more like it's biting us.

Eh we’re stocking up on picks at pretty good pace. We’re definitely in that discussion now where anyone claiming Holland isn’t rebuilding is equating that word with tanking. Because there’s not much room left until we’re in a full-on tank.

 

[BinCookin]

I'm not familiar with Kevin Skiver at CBS, but he was definitely not happy with not dealing Green (and with Holland overall):

Why the Red Wings are the biggest loser at the NHL's trade deadline

When article just quote's Green's plus minus, and concludes he has played poorly for Detroit.... I hate when people frame stats to say a good player is bad.

I mean I fully agree with trading him, but you dont need to lie to me about him sucking. He is good. He just needs to go.

Found too much Bias in article the way its written.

 

[jkutswings]

The Wings had offseason after offseason (12-15) where guys did not take their money or they overpaid.

Parise
Suter
The entire defensive FA group in 14
Nielsen
Helm
Green (although 6M was actually a good deal.


The Wings were coming off a huge run where every single story was "bloom is off the rose, Hockeytown no longer a destination".

The only players they were landing were the Modanos and Alfredssons who were past their prime.

So stop using free agency as a band aid for a bullet wound, and realize you need to have a few awful seasons to reboot the process.

 

[Winger98]

Eh we’re stocking up on picks at pretty good pace. We’re definitely in that discussion now where anyone claiming Holland isn’t rebuilding is equating that word with tanking. Because there’s not much room left until we’re in a full-on tank.

The problem Holland's going to run into is that he's built too good of a team to be really bad, and it's probably not worth what we'd have to either eat salary wise or chip in asset wise to move guys to get really bad. He's going to be trying to rebuild while drafting around 9th, which won't be fun.

 

[Shaman464]

What the team SHOULD have done;

Sold Nyquist (not as good as Tatar, and is trending in the wrong direction in advanced stats), Abdelkader (I actually like him this year, but grit+some offense=TDL over payments), AA (young, but 10 games without a goal, then a burst, then 10 games without a goal and seems to have a foot out the door already. Sell him while he has value), and Green (No brainer here).

So I am disappointed, especially because Tatar was probably my favorite player. Objectively it was a good haul, but not like an amazing one. The first is best used as part of a package to move up, if used to draft with, unless Detroit gets a top 2 pick, will be a mistake. The 2nd is in a weaker draft, so not very impressed by it. And the 3rd is a million years from now so who cares? But if Holland can package the first and other assets get a top 3 pick, this will be a huge win.

 

[NickH8]

That may be what you think. Not what I think.

With luck, Detroit could be turned around in 3-4 years.
Sheahan - 29
Mrazek - 30
Tatar - 31
Nyquist -32

Young enough to be here and contributing.
IMO, there was no need to move these guys until a) UFA was staring you in the face and they weren't coming back or b) you get to 29-30-31 and you're still miles from turning it around.

Instead, we've kept the 31-37 year olds who will be:
Zetterberg - 40-41 and gone
Kronwall - 40-41 and gone.
Howard - 37-38 and gone
Nielsen - 37-38
Ericsson 37-38
Daley - 37-38
Abdelkader - 34-35
Helm - 34-35

A generation in hockey is what? 9-12 years? That's how long a long NHL career lasts.

For some reason, this organization gave up on the 08-11 years. The kids who won the cup for the Griffs.

Instead of trading the old guys, we've traded their next half of their generation. Guy who could still be at a contributing age.


I'd rather have kept the young half of that generation.
At least until the next wave (12 and beyond) sink or swim. (Athanasiou, Mantha, Larkin, Svech, Cholo, Rasmussen, etc)

We can't just magically get rid of those old guys. Nobody will take those contracts. That is Hollands fault though.

 

[Redder Winger]

We can't just magically get rid of those old guys. Nobody will take those contracts. That is Hollands fault though.

Nobody is talking about magic.

But if it's your priority, it's your priority.
If on Nov. 19 you're sitting there with a goalie with a 931 sv percentage and 1 3/4 seasons left on his contract, and it's your priority to sell him, you'll be way more likely to sell him.

If you wait for him to slide back to mediocrity... and it's your preference to trade Mrazek, then you'll probably end up moving the other guy.

Same thing with Nielsen or Helm or Ericsson.
You have to make it your priority.

But it's not Holland's priority. We heard Holland's priority over and over these last two weeks.
He doesn't want to lose his "winning culture" and wants to keep the veterans around to teach the kids.

 

[Red Stanley]

What the team SHOULD have done;

Sold Nyquist (not as good as Tatar, and is trending in the wrong direction in advanced stats), Abdelkader (I actually like him this year, but grit+some offense=TDL over payments), AA (young, but 10 games without a goal, then a burst, then 10 games without a goal and seems to have a foot out the door already. Sell him while he has value), and Green (No brainer here).

So I am disappointed, especially because Tatar was probably my favorite player. Objectively it was a good haul, but not like an amazing one. The first is best used as part of a package to move up, if used to draft with, unless Detroit gets a top 2 pick, will be a mistake. The 2nd is in a weaker draft, so not very impressed by it. And the 3rd is a million years from now so who cares? But if Holland can package the first and other assets get a top 3 pick, this will be a huge win.

You think someone offered a Tatar deal for Nyquist and Holland refused? You think anyone came calling for Abby? What value does AA currently have? Probably not as much as having him on the roster for at least a bit longer. The Green situation is unfortunate. However, any of these players can still be traded at any point before the next tdl. I'll add Howard and LGD to that list.

 

[Bailey18]

The lesson learned here is when you offer clauses like that, there are hidden future costs. If you need to offer an NTC for a guy who isn't a star, you're probably paying too much. And if you feel you need to acquire a guy because he's your only option, you should think about where your team is in the hockey lifecycle first. If you're on the upswing, it's not a great idea, but okay. If you're falling apart and trying to delay that with UFAs, you're out of your mind.

I think you need to put some context to the situation Holland was in. Dying desperate owner and new arena on the horizon. Holland was not in a position to go full rebuild he had to do whatever he could to keep them competitive. The rebuild is in full swing now and I trust he will successful. Doesn't the smith trade last year and the tatar trade this year give you confidence that he knows asset value?

 

[jkutswings]

Doesn't the Smith trade last year and the Tatar trade this year give you confidence that he knows asset value?

It tells me he can deal a player away and get a good return, which is one of multiple facets of asset management.

But there are still a lot of contracts on the books that tell me he has weaknesses in other facets.

 

[Bailey18]

It tells me he can deal a player away and get a good return, which is one of multiple facets of asset management.

But there are still a lot of contracts on the books that tell me he has weaknesses in other facets.

Understand. However, those contracts were essentially given out under different ownership with understandably short term priorities in mind. This offseason (specifically how he handles resigning Green) will paint a true picture of what Holland is as a GM in the current environment. Getting good value for assets during tear down is step one (so far so good), drafting well is step two (tbd).

 

[14ari13]

He was here four years and he wasn't improving.. He was making the same mistake over and over and over. If he had improved year over year, I'd buy what you're selling.

Petr Mrazek was in year 4 the exact same risk-taking, reactionary goalie who was incredibly hot and cold.

His rebound control wasn't improving and it did not sound like he was gung-ho about fixing it.
His propensity to lock in on the shooter and get eaten alive by back door chances waas not changing.

It is hard to judge goalies because the difference between success and failure is about half an inch. I can tell you by watching Mrazek play that he was not getting better without drastically changing what he was doing. His entire game was predicated on using his athleticism to make stops. Highlight reel stuff like when he robbed Brian Boyle blind in the playoffs. On a game-in, game-out basis, that's an awful way to play the position. He truly is very talented, so he can for spurts make it work... but it's just not a sustainable way to play.

The arguments for/against Mrazek are identical to the ones for/against AA. They are both really talented players. They both have times were they make you say "WOW". But they both really really lack the game-in, game-out consistency that you need to be a truly elite player in the league.

And also... Mrazek is successful at all because he's just a physical freak. Let's see what happens when he ages to 30 and he's a little bit slower and can't just react to shots. His game has all the trademarks of falling apart VERY QUICKLY if you choose to ride with him.

The defence in front of him was declining real quick, the whole team too.
Our players in their prime are complimentary ones, while the core players far from their prime.

I did not like when Holland handed the big deal to Mrazek. At that point Mrazek proved nothing.

There is no way around. Holland had 2 goalies, both overpaid and no GM wanted any of them. Suddenly the flyers lose their goalies and Holland trades Mrazek.

This is not the first time Holland makes this mistake.

He did it back when he had Hasek, Joseph and Legace.

Then again when he lost Osgood.

Holland has a terrible track record when it comes to goalies. Nobody can deny this. This is the fact we all know very well.

 

[Whoshattenkirkshoes]

You always seem to have false facts, when you try to bash something good.

Daley is LhD. Guy can play the right side, but every lefty play better on the left side.

But keep bashing with your false facts.

Sorry you are wrong. Daley is more comfortable on the right side.

 

[Frk It]

Sorry you are wrong. Daley is more comfortable on the right side.

Stuart was another one. It’s rare, but some guys are better on their off side.

 

[Shaman464]

You think someone offered a Tatar deal for Nyquist and Holland refused? You think anyone came calling for Abby? What value does AA currently have? Probably not as much as having him on the roster for at least a bit longer. The Green situation is unfortunate. However, any of these players can still be traded at any point before the next tdl. I'll add Howard and LGD to that list.

I have no idea who was called about. The only person who does is KH. And its clear he has a history of turning down trades because a winger in the hand is better than 2 dmen in the bush.

 

[Unfriendly Ghost]

Eh we’re stocking up on picks at pretty good pace. We’re definitely in that discussion now where anyone claiming Holland isn’t rebuilding is equating that word with tanking. Because there’s not much room left until we’re in a full-on tank.

I'll definitely admit that Holland is doing a better job that he was. In particular, he's made a couple of shrewd moves that have led to picks for this year and the next. Full marks there. The criticism that remains is that Holland is avoiding the aspect of rebuilding that helps the most: drafting in the top 10. It's nice to have a bunch of late 1st and early 2nds, and you can get some players there. But if you don't draft in the top 10, you're praying your scouts hit a home run, because there's no other way you're getting that level of a player otherwise.

Now, maybe you don't think the Wings need elite talent. But many of us think that's a big part of what's missing—and what will be missing shortly, as Zetterberg retires.

 

[StargateSG1]

Sorry to be the bearer of more bad news but HSJ and Khan have already confirmed today that Holland is actively working to resign Green.

Woohoo!
Cup Caliber defense back again next season!
Wow, what a dope this GM is.

 

[StargateSG1]

 

[Lil Sebastian Cossa]

The defence in front of him was declining real quick, the whole team too.
Our players in their prime are complimentary ones, while the core players far from their prime.

I did not like when Holland handed the big deal to Mrazek. At that point Mrazek proved nothing.

There is no way around. Holland had 2 goalies, both overpaid and no GM wanted any of them. Suddenly the flyers lose their goalies and Holland trades Mrazek.

This is not the first time Holland makes this mistake.

He did it back when he had Hasek, Joseph and Legace.

Then again when he lost Osgood.

Holland has a terrible track record when it comes to goalies. Nobody can deny this. This is the fact we all know very well.

The defense being awful has nothing to do with Mrazek not learning to control a rebound. Hell, the defense being pretty clearly awful should make you more conservative in net than aggressive.

Aggressiveness in net is something you do when you know your teammates have your back and they're good enough to respond if you miss. If you know they can't cut off a cross ice pass to save themselves... you don't 100% lock in on the shooter and leave shutting the passing lane down to them.

I mean, if you have Hasek and he wants to play... you let him play. He should have stuck by Joseph, but it's probably a good thing it fell apart beacuse you would have had 38 year old Joseph on an 8M (6M after the rollback) in a cap world where the cap was 39 million.

Manny Legace was trash. He was a headcase and was garbage. The Wings did not lose anything by not going to him.

Ozzie was an okay goalie. But he caught a ton of flak. Late 90s Ozzie in the late 90s was current Jimmy Hoawrd. Good goalie but when the Wings won it was in spite of him, not because of him.

 

[14ari13]

He was here four years and he wasn't improving.. He was making the same mistake over and over and over. If he had improved year over year, I'd buy what you're selling.

Petr Mrazek was in year 4 the exact same risk-taking, reactionary goalie who was incredibly hot and cold.

His rebound control wasn't improving and it did not sound like he was gung-ho about fixing it.
His propensity to lock in on the shooter and get eaten alive by back door chances waas not changing.

It is hard to judge goalies because the difference between success and failure is about half an inch. I can tell you by watching Mrazek play that he was not getting better without drastically changing what he was doing. His entire game was predicated on using his athleticism to make stops. Highlight reel stuff like when he robbed Brian Boyle blind in the playoffs. On a game-in, game-out basis, that's an awful way to play the position. He truly is very talented, so he can for spurts make it work... but it's just not a sustainable way to play.

The arguments for/against Mrazek are identical to the ones for/against AA. They are both really talented players. They both have times were they make you say "WOW". But they both really really lack the game-in, game-out consistency that you need to be a truly elite player in the league.

And also... Mrazek is successful at all because he's just a physical freak. Let's see what happens when he ages to 30 and he's a little bit slower and can't just react to shots. His game has all the trademarks of falling apart VERY QUICKLY if you choose to ride with him.

No problem. I will be here in a month or 3. Then we will see how Mrazek has gone.

The Caps GM stated on the radio (and I paraphrase) that they weren't going to trade their 1st like they did last year. He said you can't go all-in every year without hurting your prospect farm. I too thought that the Caps (& Maybe TML) had made offers that included big contracts coming back or low ball deals.

They have no choice. They have to go for it, Ovechkin is not getting younger.

 

[waltdetroit]

They have no choice. They have to go for it, Ovechkin is not getting younger.

That is what the majority of sportscasters said, but the Caps only picked up some depth D