Disappointed, Surprised and Annoyed

Redder Winger

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May 4, 2017
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Got to try and resign green now tbh, trading Tatar allows that to happen though.

I'm super confused about this tbh. But like others have said, that return for Tatar is amazing, I would've been fine with a 2nd and a 3rd.

Holland probably had a good deal in place with Tampa and was just waiting for the Mcd talks to fall through, but sadly they didn't and Holland probably ran out of teams that green was willing to move to and at the same time actually give something up for him.

Why do you have to sign Green?
What's the logic there?

The logic for trading him was, since we might lose, might as well maximize value and trade him.

But I don't you can say the opposite is true. That since we didn't trade him, we have to sign him.

Let him get his retirement contract from someone else.
Let's save room for July 19 free agent defensemen.
 

Lampedampe

Registered User
Feb 26, 2015
2,151
767
Why do you have to sign Green?
What's the logic there?

The logic for trading him was, since we might lose, might as well maximize value and trade him.

But I don't you can say the opposite is true. That since we didn't trade him, we have to sign him.

Let him get his retirement contract from someone else.
Let's save room for July 19 free agent defensemen.

Maybe i should've specified that we should try to resign him to a favourable deal before he hits UFA, why?

Well if we don't then we literary lost him for nothing but if we sign him he can be on the team and help shelter young defensemen like Hronek and then trade him whenever it's suitable.

I just hate the thought of losing him for nothing tbh.
 

mikerooooose

Registered User
Nov 7, 2009
334
215
Michigan
Green got hurt. Shit happens. I wouldn't blame Holland for it. If he traded him weeks ago people would be bitching that he could have got more at the deadline. Additionally, none of you know what the actual demand was for him. Not many teams want to unload their 1st round pick.
 

Winger98

Moderator
Feb 27, 2002
22,837
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Cleveland
Disappointed in not moving Green. Honestly, I'm fine if we just sit him in the pressbox the rest of the year. Call up Hronek, and just run with that for the rest of the season.

Like everyone, I'm happy with the Tatar trade. Looking forward to moving Nyquist, too.
 
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lilidk

Registered User
Mar 4, 2008
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no matter what some will never be happy. I just wont to remind everyone that we were looking for first from Green and second for Tatar . We got all off this and we still have elite player in the system. I just like to remind what happened with Dushane trade . If you waiting for the right time you can get right return . Vegas wanted to get erik karlsson and they couldn't , could be the reason we got grate reward for Tatar
 
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kliq

Registered User
Dec 17, 2017
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If we re-sign him, it'll be a three year deal. He's going to want stability. There's a ZERO% chance he signs for one year. on the UFA market he may sign a 5 year deal.

Agreed on the 1 year deal, but I highly doubt he gets 5 years. If he couldnt get 5 years at 29, I doubt he gets 5 years at 32.
 

Roy S

Registered User
May 16, 2009
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The Wings probably won't contend until after Tatar's contract runs out, so it made sense to deal him. They should try to trade Nyquist and Glendening before next season as well for picks and prospects. Other than them, and maybe Daley, they don't really have anyone else over the age of 27 that they could trade without retaining salary. I guess they could re-sign Green if they just wanted to try and flip him at the deadline next year. But, maybe he can come back and play well down the stretch and they can sell his rights for a pick prior to the draft.

Tanking is really the only option but there have great success in doing it (Pitt, Kings and Chicago) and also great failures (ex. Edmonton, Buffalo, Colorado, etc.). It seems the Wings want to do a hybrid model where they retain a couple vets to teach young kids the ropes rather than throw them into the fire, but they still need to lose games. Its still a team with too many decent players to get top 3 picks, although trading Tatar is a start. Nyquist has to go eventually too.
 

cjm502

Bingo Bango!
Jun 22, 2010
1,791
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Mid Michigan
If Green comes back on a decent deal then I won't be as disappointed with him not being moved. If Green has made it clear to Kenny that he has a strong desire to return then I could see that being taken in to consideration along with the injury.

The youth and Z aside, I would have probably been more happy with moving any other player we had over Tatar. His contract is actually one of the better ones on our team imo and he is still young. Nice return, but underwhelming in the sense it was Tatar.

If the market was really that awful I hope we see another substantial trade or two this summer. I myself think it is more likely that Kenny overvalues the majority of our players and expects much more then he will be offered.
 

Lil Sebastian Cossa

Opinions are share are my own personal opinions.
Jul 6, 2012
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That data you just showed is why I'm not big on the Tatar trade.
I mean, it sounds good. I sounds great compared to the Kane return.
But I figure he's got another 5-6-7 years left as a 20 goal guy.
Good luck getting that late in round 1.

You're fairly fortunate if you get a Riley Sheahan at 25 overall.

But I thought Tatar and Nyquist and guys of that ilk were completely irrelevant and we need to just get rid of them for whatever, because they’re not going to be part of the team when we are any good.
 

Lil Sebastian Cossa

Opinions are share are my own personal opinions.
Jul 6, 2012
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Hopefully Holland retires and never signs another guy to a DRW contact. And his "capologist" should be sent on his way.

Why?

The Wings have had to make ONE trade to accommodate a player’s salary. One. And for what he signed for? They didn’t actually even need to make that trade. I’d say their capologist is doing a ****ing fantastic job. The league straight up dicked the Wings in back to back lockouts... and yet they’ve never had to jettison an actually useful player for cap reasons.

Their biggest cap casualty was Ville Leino. Hell, they got super ****ed by Pavel Datsyuk who decided on a whim he wanted to stick them with 7.5M hit. The team would have sucked... but if they had needed to, they could have even eaten Datsyuks 7.5M cap hit without knowing for sure they’d have to do so until March.

Ryan Martin should get a ****ing award. He’s not the one offering the contracts. He’s making the contracts that Ken Holland signs fit under the cap.
 

TheMule93

On a mule rides the swindler
May 26, 2015
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man, even after thinking about it for the past few hours, i just know that green not being traded is doing to frustrate me for a looong time. Opinion still hasn't changed, especially in light of Hollands press conference.
 
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Claypool

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Jan 12, 2009
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man, even after thinking about it for the past few hours, i just know that green not being traded is doing to frustrate me for a looong time. Opinion still hasn't changed, especially in light of Hollands press conference.
Why? Detroit got him for free and may end up losing him for nothing. You really going to lose sleep over a (likely) conditional 3rd or 4th round pick? Better to bring him back on a shorter deal and hope he stays healthy.
 

Lil Sebastian Cossa

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Jul 6, 2012
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It just makes 0 sense

1) Green is hurt. He has been hurt for the last five games. Hell, who is to say he even passes the physical if he’s not healthy enough to have played yesterday? And even assuming all was fine, he’s coming back from a day to day injury that lasted a week. I’m sure teams are lining up to pay for a rental who is basically damaged goods.

2). As soon as whispers of Karlsson and McDonagh hit the market, any chance of Green tanked. At his best now, he’s half the player either of those two are. He’s a PP specialist. Those two are #1D.

It makes a lot of sense, you just don’t like it.
 

datsyukfan

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Jul 5, 2007
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1) Green is hurt. He has been hurt for the last five games. Hell, who is to say he even passes the physical if he’s not healthy enough to have played yesterday? And even assuming all was fine, he’s coming back from a day to day injury that lasted a week. I’m sure teams are lining up to pay for a rental who is basically damaged goods.

2). As soon as whispers of Karlsson and McDonagh hit the market, any chance of Green tanked. At his best now, he’s half the player either of those two are. He’s a PP specialist. Those two are #1D.

It makes a lot of sense, you just don’t like it.

I bet you any playoff team would have gave a 3rd round pick for mike green. He’s worth a late 1st imo. Yes I guess the injury hurt but like someone said you could have made it conditional in order to ensure that a team would only pay if he was healthy. I think Kenny wanted either a late 1st or a 2nd and a good prospect and the teams that he wanted to go to didn’t wanna pay that price. I also think if the leafs got McDonough we’d have Tampa’s first right now
 
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Redder Winger

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May 4, 2017
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Maybe i should've specified that we should try to resign him to a favourable deal before he hits UFA, why?

Well if we don't then we literary lost him for nothing but if we sign him he can be on the team and help shelter young defensemen like Hronek and then trade him whenever it's suitable.

I just hate the thought of losing him for nothing tbh.

But all he is now is cap space. You can switch him out for any other UFA.
The opportunity to turn him into anything else is gone.
 
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Redder Winger

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May 4, 2017
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1) Green is hurt. He has been hurt for the last five games. Hell, who is to say he even passes the physical if he’s not healthy enough to have played yesterday? And even assuming all was fine, he’s coming back from a day to day injury that lasted a week. I’m sure teams are lining up to pay for a rental who is basically damaged goods.

2). As soon as whispers of Karlsson and McDonagh hit the market, any chance of Green tanked. At his best now, he’s half the player either of those two are. He’s a PP specialist. Those two are #1D.

It makes a lot of sense, you just don’t like it.

That's why you don't wait until deadline day of the last year of his contract to trade him.
1) You could have moved him last year.
People argued that no, he'll be worth more next year. But guess what. Green's goal scoring disappeared, even if his point production stayed OK.
2) You could have moved him at the draft or at any point during the season.
Before, for example, the wheels fell off and things went sour in Ottawa. Before, for example, the New York Rangers decided they're selling everything.

All those people who were so certain of themselves in saying "you get best value at the deadline for because of cap space" ignored two salient facts.
1) People can get hurt (which is exactly what happened.
2) Who gives a f*** about salary cap when you can retain so much on a UFA?

That's also why people shouldn't make excuses for Holland when he gives NTCs and NMCs.
Whenever he does this, people say, "Oh well, it hardly matters anyway."

Well, it does matter. We saw why today.

Who ever the GM is next year, I hope they've learned a lesson. I hope they start moving Daley at the deadline and not waiting until the final year of his deal.
Same shit with Helm, Ericsson and whatever old guy might have 1/2 an ounce of value.

But if said GM is Holland, I don't expect him to hear it. He's a yes man in a town where the media are a bunch of lemmings.
 

Lil Sebastian Cossa

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Jul 6, 2012
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That's why you don't wait until deadline day of the last year of his contract to trade him.
1) You could have moved him last year.
People argued that no, he'll be worth more next year. But guess what. Green's goal scoring disappeared, even if his point production stayed OK.
2) You could have moved him at the draft or at any point during the season.
Before, for example, the wheels fell off and things went sour in Ottawa. Before, for example, the New York Rangers decided they're selling everything.

All those people who were so certain of themselves in saying "you get best value at the deadline for because of cap space" ignored two salient facts.
1) People can get hurt (which is exactly what happened.
2) Who gives a **** about salary cap when you can retain so much on a UFA?

That's also why people shouldn't make excuses for Holland when he gives NTCs and NMCs.
Whenever he does this, people say, "Oh well, it hardly matters anyway."

Well, it does matter. We saw why today.

Who ever the GM is next year, I hope they've learned a lesson. I hope they start moving Daley at the deadline and not waiting until the final year of his deal.
Same **** with Helm, Ericsson and whatever old guy might have 1/2 an ounce of value.

But if said GM is Holland, I don't expect him to hear it. He's a yes man in a town where the media are a bunch of lemmings.

Green wasn’t dealt for anything because Ryan McDonagh became available and Erik Karlsson’s name was bandied about.

If you dealt a rental in January (which, by the way, you can’t just unilaterally decide to do.) because you were scared that two #1D would enter the market and tank the value of a guy who is optimally a PP specialist, you’re playing a suckers game.

You are going to get bent over a barrel far more than you win if you are so damn scared of your shadow and deal a guy for whatever you can get to avoid the risk that somehow he gets hurt or another unexpected asset hit the market.

And dude, get it through your head. A team has to want to trade for your player for you to move him. You can’t just unilaterally decide to move a player and have him gone unless you take a heavily discounted return. Like buy it now on EBay. You’ll make a hell of a lot less money but you’ll get a guaranteed sale. You put it up for bid, you can get a huge return.

More people were going to be interested in two months of Mike Green for a first than some kind of return for Mike Green with two years left at 6M.
 
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Pavels Dog

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Feb 18, 2013
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If you told me heading into this year’s TDL we’d pick up 4-5 picks in the first 3 rounds I’d be ecstatic.

Can’t force teams to buy. I don’t believe posters who say they would be happier if Holland got a 3rd or something for Green just to move him. We have plenty of picks in the top 60-90, the ONLY thing that would have been interesting for Green is a 1st or great 1st-round caliber prospect.
 

Cyborg Yzerberg

Registered User
Nov 8, 2007
11,152
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Philadelphia
Seriously, it's a shame we didn't move Green and Glendening and all, but that Tatar return? God damn, I'm still impressed by that. That was the literal best thing Ken Holland's done as a GM on the pro side of things outside of re-signing hall of famers in probably like, 8 years.

When you set the bar low, he can still surprise you. That Tatar deal was a real slam dunk.
 

Redder Winger

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May 4, 2017
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But I thought Tatar and Nyquist and guys of that ilk were completely irrelevant and we need to just get rid of them for whatever, because they’re not going to be part of the team when we are any good.

That may be what you think. Not what I think.

With luck, Detroit could be turned around in 3-4 years.
Sheahan - 29
Mrazek - 30
Tatar - 31
Nyquist -32

Young enough to be here and contributing.
IMO, there was no need to move these guys until a) UFA was staring you in the face and they weren't coming back or b) you get to 29-30-31 and you're still miles from turning it around.

Instead, we've kept the 31-37 year olds who will be:
Zetterberg - 40-41 and gone
Kronwall - 40-41 and gone.
Howard - 37-38 and gone
Nielsen - 37-38
Ericsson 37-38
Daley - 37-38
Abdelkader - 34-35
Helm - 34-35

A generation in hockey is what? 9-12 years? That's how long a long NHL career lasts.

For some reason, this organization gave up on the 08-11 years. The kids who won the cup for the Griffs.

Instead of trading the old guys, we've traded their next half of their generation. Guy who could still be at a contributing age.


I'd rather have kept the young half of that generation.
At least until the next wave (12 and beyond) sink or swim. (Athanasiou, Mantha, Larkin, Svech, Cholo, Rasmussen, etc)
 

HIFE

Registered User
May 10, 2011
3,220
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Detroit, MI
I agree our expectations should be low but in the end only a single meaningful trade (I will not count Mrazek) is disappointing. In my mind it's not the proper response being this far removed from actually contending. With the amount of rumors involving Glendening, Nyquist, etc., hell even supposedly a call about Ericsson... more could have been done as an investment in the future.

Mike Green re-signing is irrelevant to the deadline. He might have been annoyed to pack his gear and move for 2-3 months but that's the business. A 3rd rounder to Washington would be understandable and better than nothing. Again it's partly about (not)making a statement.

Holland's philosophy will never change. In his view a token trade like Tatar or Smith is a big deal and enough to delude himself he's rebuilding on the fly. It's all about winning now and his tactics are comical. He believes we need a dozen vets to remain competitive, and that young players should only be granted ice-time when they've stolen a job. Everything about the Wings' strategy is shortsighted. Someone said it best this week: we will never rebuild under Ken Holland.
 
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Pavels Dog

Registered User
Feb 18, 2013
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For some reason, this organization gave up on the 08-11 years. The kids who won the cup for the Griffs.

Instead of trading the old guys, we've traded their next half of their generation. Guy who could still be at a contributing age.


I'd rather have kept the young half of that generation.
At least until the next wave (12 and beyond) sink or swim. (Athanasiou, Mantha, Larkin, Svech, Cholo, Rasmussen, etc)
They gave up on them because it’s the smart thing to do. They are players that are still young enough to be interesting and valuable to contenders, enabling us to acquire picks in the top 3-4 rounds, but they’re also players that it has become obvious we can’t build around.

Moving some veterans wouldn’t be bad, and I think we will eventually. But what do we get for Kronwall? A 6th? For Helm a late round pick if we don’t retain?

Gotta play the value/worth game and Holland is doing alright at it so far. The veterans still have value to us as mentors and ensuring the legacy of the winning years sticks around as long as possible. Their worth on the market is low.
The value of Tatar to us is low. He’ll score goals but he won’t be the difference between a playoff team or a bottom 10 team and wing is our strongest position. His worth on the market was apparently great. See what I’m getting at?
 

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