Disappointed, Surprised and Annoyed

Lazlo Hollyfeld

The jersey ad still sucks
Mar 4, 2004
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If big E retires are we on the hook for any money?
The only reason to hope for E retiring is to help the tank. He's been one of our best d-men this year and his contract ends in a couple years. I'd be more worried about Dekeyser's contract and whatever offer Holland makes to Green.
 
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datsyukfan

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Jul 5, 2007
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The only reason to hope for E retiring is to help the tank. He's been one of our best d-men this year and his contract ends in a couple years. I'd be more worried about Dekeyser's contract and whatever offer Holland makes to Green.
Just thinking if he retires and Kronwall goes on ltir retired that frees up roughly 9 million dollars, maybe we get lucky and get dahlin and could have the cap space to make a play for Tavares.
 

Frk It

Mo Seider Less Problems
Jul 27, 2010
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And Green prevents that how?

Before you answer, we’re 3-2-1 since his injury.

I was just saying I care more about having a good defense 3 years from now than today. I could care less if we re-sign Mike Green or not. We have done better than I thought since he was out.

He’s 32 so he’s a non-factor in improving the quality of the defense long term.
 

ShelbyZ

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Apr 8, 2015
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With the Green thing, my gut tells me that we are likely to see only A and B out of three possible outcomes:

A. Green re-signs with the Red Wings
B. The Red Wings don't re-sign Green, but use the space to sign one (or maybe even two) UFA dmen
C. The Red Wings don't re-sign Green and leave the spot open for young players

If we're only limited to A and B, I pick A. Green is still one of the better dmen slated to hit the UFA market this summer and likely still has good value when they go to move him as a rental toward the end of whatever (hopefully short) deal they give him. It probably also helps some of their younger forwards develop having more than just Daley as a competent PMD behind them. In that sense, Green is a known option that is safer than taking a flier on someone else and having them turn out like another Ian White, Kyle Quincey or Carlo Colaiacovo...

I just can't see a scenario where this team doesn't either re-sign Green or bring in another UFA dman.

And that's not to say Russo/Hronek/Cholowski/Hicketts/Etc. won't have an opportunity to grab a spot. I'm sure Holland or whoever would rather enter next season with enough known (barely) NHL capable dmen, but would be happy to carry 8 (or 8.5 if Witkowski is still around?) and move Ouellet and Jensen to #7/8, or waive and demote one of Ouellet or Jensen and make the other a Cleary Cabana regular if one of the young guys seem good enough to occupy a regular spot coming out of camp/pre-season next fall.
 

ShelbyZ

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I doubt Ericsson would "officially" retire. If he's ready to hang them up before his deal is up, they can probably just LTIRetire him and he still gets to collect the remaining salary on his deal.

I'm speculating from an A+B = C equation here...

A. Ericsson allegedly has some un-repairable hip issue
B. Being allergic to equipment can land a player on LTIR

C. LTIRetired

I think the hope with Ericsson should be that he keeps playing well like he has been this season. Continuing that play probably only helps make him easier to move at some point during the next two seasons, and for something measureable rather than a cap dump from the other team. After 7/1/18, his full NTC opens up a bit by allowing him to choose 19 teams he won't go to.
 

Whoshattenkirkshoes

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Aug 11, 2014
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I don't get your response.

1. Who said anything about Karlsson?
2. We tried flipping Green this season, but you don't think we would next season? Uhh... hello?

Green was an upcoming UFA at this trade deadline, next year he will have term on his contract. Uhh... does this make sense??
 

Flowah

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Nov 30, 2009
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Green was an upcoming UFA at this trade deadline, next year he will have term on his contract. Uhh... does this make sense??
1. You can trade people with term on their contract. Happens all the time. We just did it with Tatar.
2. You can sign people for 1 year contracts. Again, happens all the time. I'd hope Mike Green, a 32 year old with his best years definitely behind him, won't get anything more than 2 years.
 

Whoshattenkirkshoes

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As of today, Detroit has 8 more wins than Arizona. EIGHT. And for comparison, the Wings have 17 fewer wins than Tampa Bay. So for call their obsession with avoiding the bottom of the barrel, they're still pretty low in the barrel.

If this "winning culture" is supposed to actually help them win games, instead of blowing it up to reboot the whole thing, it's not exactly doing a great job.
How? The Wings are doing a perfect job. Everything you said is exactly what we want. Stay competitive in games and finish "near the bottom of the barrel"

Edit-
The Redwings have stayed competitive in the playoff race all year long and have stayed competitive in games. Arizona has not. What are you talking about?
 
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Whoshattenkirkshoes

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1. You can trade people with term on their contract. Happens all the time. We just did it with Tatar.
2. You can sign people for 1 year contracts. Again, happens all the time. I'd hope Mike Green, a 32 year old with his best years definitely behind him, won't get anything more than 2 years.
Ya you can trade people with term, but the wings generally don't and you know that. We traded Tatar to open up a spot for Ras and Svech.
Daley, Jensen will be the 1st to go on the right side when we open up a spot for Hronek.
We are not signing Green and trading him.
 
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jkutswings

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Jul 10, 2014
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How? The Wings are doing a perfect job. Everything you said is exactly what we want. Stay competitive in games and finish "near the bottom of the barrel"

Edit-
The Redwings have stayed competitive in the playoff race all year long and have stayed competitive in games. Arizona has not. What are you talking about?
I'm saying that Detroit, barring a freak lottery win, will continue to stay in the 15-25 range year after year, and never get any elite players to build a real contender.

I don't think this staff has the ability to find the next cornerstone (or two) outside of at least a top 5, if not a top 3 pick.

And it's not like Arizona is losing 10-0 while Detroit is always in 1-goal games, either. "Competitive" is a lousy term, and a horrendously low bar to set.

EDIT: Ultimately, I don't view Detroit as a significantly more appealing on-ice product to watch, while Arizona (statistically) should have a measurably better chance at landing an impact player with their first pick.
 
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Winger98

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Ideally I would like to re-sign him on a short term contract without a NTC... or a flexible NTC where KH get's more control. Like can't trade him to a bottom 5 team in the NHL prior to deadline or something.

If we re-sign him, that's what I'd want, too. I know Holland said the NTC wasn't an issue this year, but I'm just not buying it.

I hope we at least look at Carlson and De Haan first, though. I know they probably won't come here, for obvious reasons, but if we're looking at spending $5m+ on Green, how much more would it really take to go after Carlson? After that, if Green won't meet our demands, go fishing for a vet who will. I joked about us chasing guys like Hamhuis and Bieksa before, but if we're definitely signing someone, I'd rather sign them if they sign on our terms than someone like Jack Johnson or Green on less friendly terms.
 
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Lil Sebastian Cossa

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Jul 6, 2012
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I doubt Ericsson would "officially" retire. If he's ready to hang them up before his deal is up, they can probably just LTIRetire him and he still gets to collect the remaining salary on his deal.

I'm speculating from an A+B = C equation here...

A. Ericsson allegedly has some un-repairable hip issue
B. Being allergic to equipment can land a player on LTIR

C. LTIRetired

I think the hope with Ericsson should be that he keeps playing well like he has been this season. Continuing that play probably only helps make him easier to move at some point during the next two seasons, and for something measureable rather than a cap dump from the other team. After 7/1/18, his full NTC opens up a bit by allowing him to choose 19 teams he won't go to.

That's not at all necessary. Ericsson doesn't have a backdiving contract. The Wings face no (or immaterial, if any) recapture risk if he hangs them up. He retires and the salary is gone. The Wings won't, nor should they, pay him 4-8M for not playing hockey. Teams are using LTIR to keep a player on the roster and therefore avoid the cap hit recapture. If Ericsson got hit by a bus tomorrow or took up basket weaving and left, the Wings would be off the hook for 100% of his contract. They'd probably have to pay the insurance premiums if he got hit by the bus, but in terms of salaried cap hit? It disappears as soon as he decides to no longer play hockey.

Ericsson would officially retire. If he's put on LTIR, then I believe the Swedish Mafia stories quite a bit more. No tangible benefit from him LTIRetiring.
 

SirloinUB

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How? The Wings are doing a perfect job. Everything you said is exactly what we want. Stay competitive in games and finish "near the bottom of the barrel"

Edit-
The Redwings have stayed competitive in the playoff race all year long and have stayed competitive in games. Arizona has not. What are you talking about?

It is painfully evident that many people don’t understand a god damn thing about “culture” within the context of hockey and this team. I’ll explain it one more time for those in the back who can’t seem to grasp it.

When Holland talks about “winning culture” it’s not about the results of the season. It’s not about results of an individual game.

"Winning culture” is about approach. A team full of kids aren’t going to have the right approach. We saw this in Edmonton. Guys were partying ALL of the time, Hall is on record saying he didn’t want to talk to the coaches, the team was very clique, guys weren’t putting in extra time after practice, etc. Long story short, a team full of kids, doesn’t know how to put the work in. They don’t realize how to approach the game on a daily basis.

Say what you will about the overall talent of Helm, Abby, LGD and Kronwall but these guys know what it takes to play in the NHL for a decade. They know the kind of work that needs to be put in on a daily basis. They know the daily intensity required. They have gone on deep playoff runs. They can lead by example.

Culture is about approach and process, not wins or stats. I do believe that Holland can go too far with the vet presence and culture thing, but, it is without doubt, a valid concept.
 

ShelbyZ

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Apr 8, 2015
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Ericsson would officially retire. If he's put on LTIR, then I believe the Swedish Mafia stories quite a bit more. No tangible benefit from him LTIRetiring.

I mean... Swedish Mafia or not, we are talking about a front office that "took care" of Dan Cleary when he supposedly left a 3 year deal from Philly on the table..... To the tune of giving him over $4.25M to spend most nights in the press box, which included a $1M performance bonus that spilled into the next years cap if he played 5 games or something like that. Then he got a nice free from Escrow $950k to dress for a few games here and there for the Griffins and mostly just be a cool guy in the locker room there. And finally he somehow got a contract from the Griffins to just exist on the roster and practice... They bent over backwards to make sure Cleary got most of the $6M he supposedly left on the table in Philly, so I doubt they sneeze at "taking care" of another longtime Wing. I doubt if Jonathan Ericsson went to Ken Holland or whoever in this front office, and said "you know guys my hip's really bugging me, I don't know if I can keep going..." I doubt they just print up the official retirement papers and tell him to not let the door hit him on the way out. I'm sure after the whole Krupp debacle, Holland makes sure to insure contracts that extend into career twilights...

I should have elaborated that in my scenario if Ericsson does decide to retire, it likely has to do with his apparent nagging unrepairable injury, which gives him a leg to stand on in securing the rest of his guaranteed contract.

Otherwise, I can't see him just up and giving up and leaving $4-8M on the table, especially when he's on a team that still sees him as a top 4 dman.
 
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14ari13

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Oct 19, 2006
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The defense being awful has nothing to do with Mrazek not learning to control a rebound. Hell, the defense being pretty clearly awful should make you more conservative in net than aggressive.

Aggressiveness in net is something you do when you know your teammates have your back and they're good enough to respond if you miss. If you know they can't cut off a cross ice pass to save themselves... you don't 100% lock in on the shooter and leave shutting the passing lane down to them.

I mean, if you have Hasek and he wants to play... you let him play. He should have stuck by Joseph, but it's probably a good thing it fell apart beacuse you would have had 38 year old Joseph on an 8M (6M after the rollback) in a cap world where the cap was 39 million.

Manny Legace was trash. He was a headcase and was garbage. The Wings did not lose anything by not going to him.

Ozzie was an okay goalie. But he caught a ton of flak. Late 90s Ozzie in the late 90s was current Jimmy Hoawrd. Good goalie but when the Wings won it was in spite of him, not because of him.
IT is still Holland making this goalie chaos.

Osgood. He won us the cup in 08. In 98 it was despite of him. In 08 he was very solid even great. He was one win away from winning back to back. Who is the goalie who has done this?
 

Pavels Dog

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Feb 18, 2013
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I'm saying that Detroit, barring a freak lottery win, will continue to stay in the 15-25 range year after year, and never get any elite players to build a real contender.

I don't think this staff has the ability to find the next cornerstone (or two) outside of at least a top 5, if not a top 3 pick.

And it's not like Arizona is losing 10-0 while Detroit is always in 1-goal games, either. "Competitive" is a lousy term, and a horrendously low bar to set.

EDIT: Ultimately, I don't view Detroit as a significantly more appealing on-ice product to watch, while Arizona (statistically) should have a measurably better chance at landing an impact player with their first pick.
And it won’t matter for them. One impact player in a sea of trash on a dysfunctional organization is meaningless. There’s a reason they are where they are and it’s not deliberate nor can we become worse without going nuclear on the team.

Look at AZs draft history. It’s absolutely nothing outside the 1st round, and a very questionable 1st round history on top. They are dead last despite actually making some ”win now” moves the last 2 years. NHL success is not determined by the skill rating of the player you draft in the 1st round of a single draft year. It’s determined by being able to consistently find talent and NHLers from the 1st round to the 7th. Who do you bet on, AZ or Detroit?
 

Claypool

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Jan 12, 2009
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I'm saying that Detroit, barring a freak lottery win, will continue to stay in the 15-25 range year after year, and never get any elite players to build a real contender.

Well they drafted 9th last year and will likely draft around the same spot or lower this year So, as usual, you're wrong.
 
Jul 30, 2005
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I mean, what is location, really
And it won’t matter for them. One impact player in a sea of trash on a dysfunctional organization is meaningless. There’s a reason they are where they are and it’s not deliberate nor can we become worse without going nuclear on the team.

Look at AZs draft history. It’s absolutely nothing outside the 1st round, and a very questionable 1st round history on top. They are dead last despite actually making some ”win now” moves the last 2 years. NHL success is not determined by the skill rating of the player you draft in the 1st round of a single draft year. It’s determined by being able to consistently find talent and NHLers from the 1st round to the 7th. Who do you bet on, AZ or Detroit?
But this doesn't show that Detroit is going to do well. It only shows that Arizona is going to have a hard time. It may well be that Detroit has a hard time, too. After all, the Wings are not exactly a marquee team at the draft podium these days.
 

Pavels Dog

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Feb 18, 2013
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But this doesn't show that Detroit is going to do well. It only shows that Arizona is going to have a hard time. It may well be that Detroit has a hard time, too. After all, the Wings are not exactly a marquee team at the draft podium these days.
Sure, that’s fair. But even if we’re not finding superstars like in the 90s, you can still look through our last 10 years and find many good or decent NHLers drafted beyond the top 10 or even outside the 1st.
If we find our OEL, it’s reasonable to assume it would make an impact for our club because he’d have depth to play with. If we draft a Keller to join Larkin maybe success can be built around them because, again, we find depth consistently.

There are never guarantees but keep betting on that NEXT top pick to be the difference for AZ/Buffalo/Edmonton and you might wait a long time.
 

jkutswings

hot piss hockey
Jul 10, 2014
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Well they drafted 9th last year and will likely draft around the same spot or lower this year So, as usual, you're wrong.
I meant in the standings, not the lottery. Last year they finished 25th in the standings.
 

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