Crosby leapfrogs Lemieux in all-time playoff points

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Jul 30, 2010
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Congrats to Sid. Great player and a sweet treat to watch. Don’t think he’ll ever reach the tier of Sackic/Yzerman/Kurri/Howe but props to him and his unreal career. 3 peat Maybe? Pens fans are hopin’!!!
Sakic and Yzerman are not on the tier of Howe either.

Howe is on a tier with Gretzky, Lemieux and Bobby Orr and is almost universally hailed as a member of the big 4 of Hockey.

Kurri is not on the same tier as Sakic and Yzerman either. He is significantly lower.

Crosby is on the tier with the Jean Beliveau/Maurice Richard/Bobby Hull/Ray Bourque/Nick Lidstrom types.
 

authentic

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Jan 28, 2015
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50% of players in the league now are better than gretzy ever was.

This is like saying some old race car will beat a formula one car. It doesnt take away what they've done but the game has past them by.

It's not quite the same really, but Gretzky just as he was would not make an NHL team today. Not a fair way to compare players, but it is funny how some believe he would score 150 points today straight out of the 80s. OHL goalies and defense from 2005 were better than 1980s NHL.
 

Shaftception

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Apr 6, 2011
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The only time I can't take discussions comparing players in different eras seriously is when they're judged solely by stats. The only objective way to compare them is by comparing league standards of the time (quality of league talent, salary structures/free agency, goaltending styles, health regiments, etc.) as well as personal physical attributes that would translate no matter what era the player played in.

I grew up watching Lemieux as closely as one can being a Pens fan and all, and despite the tendency for favoritism can state with absolute confidence that his bread and butter forehand backhand deke that he'd routinely score with was for the most part only as effective as it was because every goalie had to play 10 feet in front of the crease just to have a shot at stopping a slapper from the blue line because the stand-up/kick save style was so inefficient and glaringly inferior to today's quality of goaltending. I could point to a number of goals from his highlight reels that would never be scored in today's game because they were simple slapshots past goalies who were barely covering 50% of the net. But one could also point to his inarguable physical advantages of his frame, reach, and perseverance through adversities that would translate to any era and try to extrapolate from there. That angle I would buy and am of the same opinion when comparing someone like Mario to this era and any future one. His stats speak for themselves even if they're artificially raised compared to now (especially considering he still produced gaudy numbers relatively close to the advent of post-lockout hockey), but his physical attributes would likely have allowed him to dominate in most any era, just not to the same degree.

The people I'll never be able to find common ground with are the people who obsess over stats alone regardless of context. Such as Gretzky's records for example because they're so impossibly gaudy that they're literally unbreakable, ignoring the facts surrounding the absolutely fortuitous circumstances his career just so happened to occur during such as the highest scoring era in league history (to be fair inflated by his own production), playing his prime on dynastic teams when it was easier to keep a team together, and perhaps most importantly of all the inarguable weaknesses of the popular goaltending styles at the time among other factors. No player ever again will have the same advantages Gretzky did that were almost completely out of his control but still benefited greatly from, thus no player will ever realistically be able to prove they're inarguably superior in a direct comparison.

Dan Marino retired the most prolific passer in NFL history, and his records are likely to be bested by numerous QB's over the next few decades almost solely due to rule changes and league trends that benefit offensive production in the modern game. Now this isn't entirely out of the ordinary, at one time the three pointer didn't exist in Basketball, but because of these inconsistencies between era's one has to take into more than just raw stats if you hope to have a worthwhile discussion. The limits to human physical capability are only so high, and each advancement in team building, coaching, training and healthcare that raises the talent floor of the league reduces the ability of any one player regardless of individual talent from being able to stand out from the pack. If the Lebron James of hockey came along, a physical freak even as a teenager, he'd still have to play within the limits of today's ever evolving efficiency of how the game is played, coached, and instructed.

Off topic perhaps from the discussion surrounding Crosby, sorry for the rant.
 

Riptide

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Even when you adjust eras Mario is at 1.36PPG and Sid is at 1.08

I don't think anyone doubts that Mario was in a different class then Crosby. You can adjust eras or whatever, but as good as Crosby is as the best player in the game today, and one of the best all time, Mario still tops him as one of the best 2-3 players to ever play the game. So falling just short of that isn't hard ship or disappointment in any way shape or form.
 

PenguinSpeed

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-Crosby and Malkin are likely going to finish 3rd and 4th in playoff points. In a much harder scoring era. If these 2 win 2 more cups the haterade will be out for the next 25+ years
 
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MadLuke

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Jan 18, 2011
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I allways laugh when someone claims players from the past are better then players from the present.

If you have a pool of 10.000 players vs 1.000.000 players, which pool would have the best players?

There is some good argument to be made for the 80s to early 90s to have been the era with the most talent too. European started to come in and that when we had the most hockey aged male Canadian in history, 20 to 35 year's after the peak of the baby boom should have had a nice pool of talent:
6a00d83451688169e2017616ee71f8970c-pi


Combined with the sport being cheaper to play and soccer not being has popular.

Other than for that time I do not think it was the best, but during the best moment of the 06 an argument can be made that it was the highest average of natural ability/talent by player's, just because the talent pool was not 5 times smaller while having 5 times less team.
 

66871

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May 17, 2009
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To those that mock the 50s: you clearly lack the perspective of how hockey changes through eras. Ancient Sakic, Selanne, and Jagr were among the best players in the late 00s. We know how their primes compare to Lemieux's prime. We know how their prime compared to Gretzky's. We know how Gretzky's prime compared to Trottier's. We know how Trottier's prime compared to Esposito's. We know how Esposito's prime compared to aging Howe, who had his first 100 pt. season in 67-68 (as a 37 y.o.). We can judge their skills quite well. Get educated.

We also know that the league doubled in size in 67-68 and half the league was essentially minor leaguers. But that context never comes up or counts against the guys who feasted from 67 through the early/mid 70 when the expansion of top tier hockey (including WHA) leveled off. But today's vanilla NHL is all we need to diminish Crosby, Ovi and eventually McDavid.
 

Bingo71

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Apr 3, 2018
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3rd and 4th all time Penguins? That for sure.
*facepalm*

This thread is literally about Sid taking over the number 1 spot in Pens franchise history for playoff points from Mario.

Malkin will likely overtake him as well as he is only 11 points behind.
 

Novak Djokovic

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Dec 10, 2006
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Took him almost 50% longer than Lemieux, but ya, good for Sid I guess.
I like how that is a negative. The guy is going to end up in Top 5 all time in playoff points but so many people will have spent all of their time downplaying his accomplishments.
 
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Sentinel

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We also know that the league doubled in size in 67-68 and half the league was essentially minor leaguers. But that context never comes up or counts against the guys who feasted from 67 through the early/mid 70 when the expansion of top tier hockey (including WHA) leveled off. But today's vanilla NHL is all we need to diminish Crosby, Ovi and eventually McDavid.
I am aware of that. This is why nobody is claiming 40 y.o. Howe suddenly became a better player than the year before because he went from 82 points to 103 points. But we can judge and evaluate his accomplishments based on that. He is better than Crosby by every metric imaginable: better peak (he lead the 52-53 scoring by I believe 28%), better two-way play (without saying), better physical presence (without saying), better regular season performance (many more Harts and Art Rosses than Crosby), better playoff performance (Crosby didn't lead his team in points in ANY of three Cup runs, unthinkable for Howe), and better longevity (can you really imagine Crosby playing till 52 years old?).

So let's talk about Jagr, Hull Sr., etc. instead.
 

daver

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I am aware of that. This is why nobody is claiming 40 y.o. Howe suddenly became a better player than the year before because he went from 82 points to 103 points. But we can judge and evaluate his accomplishments based on that. He is better than Crosby by every metric imaginable: better peak (he lead the 52-53 scoring by I believe 28%), better two-way play (without saying), better physical presence (without saying), better regular season performance (many more Harts and Art Rosses than Crosby), better playoff performance (Crosby didn't lead his team in points in ANY of three Cup runs, unthinkable for Howe), and better longevity (can you really imagine Crosby playing till 52 years old?).

So let's talk about Jagr, Hull Sr., etc. instead.

Based on what?
 

Riptide

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Dec 29, 2011
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I am aware of that. This is why nobody is claiming 40 y.o. Howe suddenly became a better player than the year before because he went from 82 points to 103 points. But we can judge and evaluate his accomplishments based on that. He is better than Crosby by every metric imaginable: better peak (he lead the 52-53 scoring by I believe 28%), better two-way play (without saying), better physical presence (without saying), better regular season performance (many more Harts and Art Rosses than Crosby), better playoff performance (Crosby didn't lead his team in points in ANY of three Cup runs, unthinkable for Howe), and better longevity (can you really imagine Crosby playing till 52 years old?).

So let's talk about Jagr, Hull Sr., etc. instead.

Yeah... not even close. :shakehead
 

Sentinel

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Based on what?
You don't know who Gordie Howe really is, do you? You can start by reading Wikipedia. The first (or second, I forgot) line says "widely considered to be the most complete player to ever play NHL." That includes two-way play, which in the 06 era was THE way to play hockey. And Howe was the best.

It's like arguing with children. Have you all began watching hockey when Crosby entered the league?
 

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