Player Discussion Carey Price - Why Always Me? Edition

[Lafleurs Guy]

This is so childish.

You read what you want to read man.

Childish is being upset about us dealing away a journeyman goalie seven years ago and not being able to let it go. Childish is coming in here chirping about how Lindgren is a better goalie than Carey Price.

You have proven my point repeatedly throughout the years and are doing it again in this thread.

 

[Chili]

You can't even differentiate between dislike of Price and dislike of the contract. Some Price supporters here are doing him no favours.

Got into this debate before and that`s exactly what I found, any criticism of the contract equates to a criticism of the player for some. They are different.

Top forwards and dman can adjust their role and icetime as they age (as even Gretzky and Lemieux did).

Goaltenders have one basic job, to stop the puck, so once they start trending down what will be the result?

And it`s rare that careers turn around once the slide begins.

I would consider that contract silly for any 30ish year old goaltender in the league, even one with no injury history.

Will be interesting over the next few years to watch this debate unfold.

 

[bsl]

What exactly needs to be argued here? He's been a top five Vezina finalist in four of the last six seasons he's been healthy and was over .930 in the season where he was knocked out. He's done this consistently on bottom third teams and consistently gotten them to 100 point seasons. He's ranked in the top five players in the league on the latest TSN player list and he's considered the best goalie in the game.

"Emo" crap is unsubstantiated nonsense about him not training hard or having a bad attitude.

There that's arguing the case. As expected from you LG. I'm not as impressed by Price as you are, but you make a case.

And yes unlike your post, there a lot of Emo crap posts here supporting Price. Far more than the other way around actually, by my observation.

 

[Lafleurs Guy]

Got into this debate before and that`s exactly what I found, any criticism of the contract equates to a criticism of the player for some. They are different.

Top forwards and dman can adjust their role and icetime as they age (as even Gretzky and Lemieux did).

Goaltenders have one basic job, to stop the puck, so once they start trending down what will be the result?

And it`s rare that careers turn around once the slide begins.

I would consider that contract silly for any 30ish year old goaltender in the league, even one with no injury history.

8 more years to watch this debate unfold.

There have been tons of great debates on this contract with good points being raised on both sides. There's no doubt it's a risk but that's true of any big contract.

The whole "but he's a goalie" thing isn't going to work in contract negotiations. The player will just leave and go somewhere else. Teams are going to pay for that kind of talent. That's just the reality of the situation.

So the question is whether or not you should trade the player rather than pay him. I'd say pay him just like I'd say it for any star player. But that position is conditional upon building an actual team to go along with that player. It makes no sense to sign him and then let key players walk. On that point I think everyone can agree.

 

[Price is Wright]

Reasonable: Carey Price, despite having zero defence, is not having a great season.

Unreasonable: Carey Price is an average goalie.

Reasonable: While Price deserved his contract, his best seasons were wasted and now he has a contract paying him for carrying the team for years instead of for what he can likely accomplish in his 30s.

Unreasonable: Consistent goalies are a waste of money because there's been a few examples of inconsistent goalies going all the way.

Just dumb: People who say Price is making $10.5 million this year.

Reasonable: It will be hard to rebuild with Price on a large contract in which he dictates his own fate.

Unreasonable: Nobody would ever want Price in a world where the Los Angeles Kings traded for Dion Phaneuf, and David Clarkson has been traded twice.

Hilarious: Imagine Carey Price getting angry in the locker room at his terrible defencemen. Does he call Holtby and tell him he wants to give him his Hart trophy for dealing with the suck that is Karl Alzner for several years? Does he tell Jordie Benn he isn't as good as Pateryn? Does he even know Morrow's name?

 

[bsl]

Got into this debate before and that`s exactly what I found, any criticism of the contract equates to a criticism of the player for some. They are different.

Top forwards and dman can adjust their role and icetime as they age (as even Gretzky and Lemieux did).

Goaltenders have one basic job, to stop the puck, so once they start trending down what will be the result?

And it`s rare that careers turn around once the slide begins.

I would consider that contract silly for any 30ish year old goaltender in the league, even one with no injury history.

Will be interesting over the next few years to watch this debate unfold.

Exactly. I am not impressed with Price this year, but I do not think he is shit. But man is that contract ever shit. Some supporters are just being so f***ing thick here.

 

[Lafleurs Guy]

Reasonable: Carey Price, despite having zero defence, is not having a great season.

Unreasonable: Carey Price is an average goalie.

Reasonable: While Price deserved his contract, his best seasons were wasted and now he has a contract paying him for carrying the team for years instead of for what he can likely accomplish in his 30s.

Unreasonable: Consistent goalies are a waste of money because there's been a few examples of inconsistent goalies going all the way.

Just dumb: People who say Price is making $10.5 million this year.

Reasonable: It will be hard to rebuild with Price on a large contract in which he dictates his own fate.

Unreasonable: Nobody would ever want Price in a world where the Los Angeles Kings traded for Dion Phaneuf, and David Clarkson has been traded twice.

Hilarious: Imagine Carey Price getting angry in the locker room at his terrible defencemen. Does he call Holtby and tell him he wants to give him his Hart trophy for dealing with the suck that is Karl Alzner for several years? Does he tell Jordie Benn he isn't as good as Pateryn? Does he even know Morrow's name?

You've summed it up perfectly. Maybe this thread can get back to some level of intelligent debate. There have been some really good ones this year already.

 

[Chili]

There have been tons of great debates on this contract with good points being raised on both sides. There's no doubt it's a risk but that's true of any big contract.

The whole "but he's a goalie" thing isn't going to work in contract negotiations. The player will just leave and go somewhere else. Teams are going to pay for that kind of talent. That's just the reality of the situation.

So the question is whether or not you should trade the player rather than pay him. I'd say pay him just like I'd say it for any star player. But that position is conditional upon building an actual team to go along with that player. It makes no sense to sign him and then let key players walk. On that point I think everyone can agree.

Why do we need to agree on anything?

I just like to express my opinion, not to argue with anyone.

People are entitled to their opinion, whatever it is, in my opinion.

 

[Beige Van]

This year is a write off, but he needs to pick up his game in a big way next season. 4th last in sv% is simply unacceptable. Factor in the massive contract kicking in....woof!

It would be like if Patrick Kane had a 15 point season. Doubt Hawks fans would be ok with that.

 

[bsl]

There have been tons of great debates on this contract with good points being raised on both sides. There's no doubt it's a risk but that's true of any big contract.

The whole "but he's a goalie" thing isn't going to work in contract negotiations. The player will just leave and go somewhere else. Teams are going to pay for that kind of talent. That's just the reality of the situation.

So the question is whether or not you should trade the player rather than pay him. I'd say pay him just like I'd say it for any star player. But that position is conditional upon building an actual team to go along with that player. It makes no sense to sign him and then let key players walk. On that point I think everyone can agree.

Yes I agree with that, but I do not agree that a very good goalie has the same impact as a very good center or D man. This is the thing I disagree with you the most about.

The differences between top goalies in the NHL are just not that significant, and often change every year. For that reason there should not be huge differences in cap hit among top goalies. And I don't think other top goalies will catch up, not the way Price is proving the risk this year.

And the risks with Price were huge: Injury history, average to good in PO, age. The contract flat out sucks and may become a horrible outlier.

And there are larger trends at play. I think that NHL GMs are going to become more and more mercenary. Rewarding players with long and rich contracts near 30 for past performance is not a good strategy, even if said players have won cups, and have no injury history.

Chicago is showing that right now. After 3 cups, they could have traded one or both of T and K for a fortune and rebuilt on the fly.

Good drafting, high picks, and great ELC and first contract players are where it is going.

The Price contract is hugely contrary to this trend.

 

[Lafleurs Guy]

Why do we need to agree on anything?

I just like to express my opinion, not to argue with anyone.

People are entitled to their opinion, whatever it is, in my opinion.

Of course.

I'm simply making the point that I think almost every would agree that it makes no sense to sign a 30 year old player to a big contract when you have no chance of a cup anytime soon.

 

[nhlfan9191]

More useless emo. I could not care less that you are mad at nasty people. Argue the case for Price and his contract. Again, you are not helping Price with posts like these.

Carried the team 13-17. You want an argument for why he cleaned us out, that’s why. Scared GM’s who thought he could save their jobs. That’s why. I’ve argued all points so you can read or do research before making a post like this. The handful, which is what it is talking trash, have no effect. BSL, Genesis, Philippe, are all posters with agenda’s. There’s a less then a handful or slightly more, at most.

 

[Andrei79]

Yes so now because im comparing Price’s under 900 sv% to Lingren’s sv% in the NHL i am using double standarts?

So in order for me to fall in line with your logic the right thing to do is to compare 2 goalies in 2 different leagues with 2 different systems, different players, different coachs and pretend their stats mean the same?

Help me some one.

And here we go again with the dodging.

Lindgrens not even putting up .900% in the AHL.

He's 47th in sv%, actually. Brutal, brutal numbers.

You used those same numbers against Price when posters argued he wasn't the only one at fault.

Yet now, you're playing innoncent. That's a double standard.

 

[Bilgerat10]

I do not agree that a very good goalie has the same impact as a very good center or D man.

Said every Philadelphia GM going back to Bob Clark.

 

[Genesis76]

Why do we need to agree on anything?

I just like to express my opinion, not to argue with anyone.

People are entitled to their opinion, whatever it is, in my opinion.

Exactly.

My opinion: Halak is one of the greatest goalies in the game and he has proven it many many times in the world tournements as well as in the olympics.

My opinion.

Mine.

My opinion: Price can become a legend if hes well supported and guided outside the rink.
However to me hes not a fit in MTL.

Reasonable: Price needs to take some kind of energy pill. Hes been on the chill pill for far too long.

 

[Lafleurs Guy]

Yes I agree with that, but I do not agree that a very good goalie has the same impact as a very good center or D man. This is the thing I disagree with you the most about.

16 goalies have won the Conn Smythe and 16 centers have done it. Your goalie is on the ice for the entire 60 minutes and is the only guy tasked with stopping the puck. If your star center has an off night there are 20 other guys who can put the puck in the net for you. If your goalie has an off night you lose the game.

I'd say goaltending is damn important. Great teams with mediocre goalies have won the cup - that's true. But many, many, many more great teams have lost in the playoffs because they had a mediocre goalie despite being the better team.

How many times in the playoffs have you heard that a team ran into a hot goalie and couldn't win? It happens all the time.

The differences between top goalies in the NHL are just not that significant, and often change every year. For that reason there should not be huge differences in cap hit among top goalies. And I don't think other top goalies will catch up, not the way Price is proving the risk this year.

You're right, it changes every year... with the exception of a few guys who are there every year. Carey Price has been incredibly consistent over the years. Those guys are hard to find and worth their weight in gold. It's why top goalies rarely get traded in their prime. Teams don't want to let them go.

And the risks with Price were huge: Injury history, average to good in PO, age. The contract flat out sucks and may become a horrible outlier.

The risks with any player are huge when you get into a contract like that. But it's not like Price is a walking injury. He missed a year but he came back and had another Vezina finish... Tons of star players have had concussions. Tavares for example has been laid out a few times and probably has a similar injury history to Price. Would that stop you from signing him?

 

[Genesis76]

And here we go again with the dodging.

Lindgrens not even putting up .900% in the AHL.

He's 47th in sv%, actually. Brutal, brutal numbers.

You used those same numbers against Price when posters argued he wasn't the only one at fault.

Yet now, you're playing innoncent. That's a double standard.

It doesnt matter.

Some people play better in the NHL than AHL.

 

[Chili]

Of course.

I'm simply making the point that I think almost every would agree that it makes no sense to sign a 30 year old player to a big contract when you have no chance of a cup anytime soon.

That`s your opinion which you`re entitled to.

I speak for no one but myself here, so I don`t know.

Vegas had zero chance of winning the Cup at the start of the season and now who knows? Overall team fortunes can change in a couple of years or so it seems without doing an analysis.

 

[Lafleurs Guy]

That`s your opinion which you`re entitled to.

It's an opinion I think most would share.

 

[Andrei79]

It doesnt matter.

Some people play better in the NHL than AHL.

That's an unfounded statement.

Name those good NHL goaltenders who, at 24, were in the bottom of every AHL stats.

 

[Lafleurs Guy]

Exactly.

My opinion: Halak is one of the greatest goalies in the game and he has proven it many many times in the world tournements as well as in the olympics.

My opinion.

Mine.

I can say Jordie Benn's a better player than Jamie all I want but there's not much data to support it.

It doesnt matter.

Some people play better in the NHL than AHL.

Esp when they've only had a handful of NHL games.

 

[Chili]

It's an opinion I think most would share.

Maybe, maybe not, I don`t know.

Is it important to post the popular opinion on these forums?

My answer would be no.

 

[Lafleurs Guy]

Maybe, maybe not, I don`t know.

Is it important to post the popular opinion on these forums?

My answer would be no.

I think you missed my point. I'm simply trying to point to common ground between two sides of a debate.

 

[bsl]

Carried the team 13-17. You want an argument for why he cleaned us out, that’s why. Scared GM’s who thought he could save their jobs. That’s why. I’ve argued all points so you can read or do research before making a post like this. The handful, which is what it is talking trash, have no effect. BSL, Genesis, Philippe, are all posters with agenda’s. There’s a less then a handful or slightly more, at most.

- Rewarding past performance is not a good strategy , especially with an injury prone 30 year old who has never won anything. It is idiotic.

-Scared GMs. So? Does that make the contract justifiable? In fact it makes your case worse.

In fact I cannot tell if your are disagreeing or agreeing with me here.

-I don't have an agenda, I am debating on a hockey board.

 

[bsl]

Said every Philadelphia GM going back to Bob Clark.

I was comparing the group of good goalies every year, not the shit ones, or lucky one run guys. Thanks.