Player Discussion Carey Price - Why Always Me? Edition

[NotProkofievian]

13-14 was the year 'da system' was implemented. Yes Subban put up points (he always does) but it was his worst year. And he's playing less than half the game. We were consistently outplayed that year and were bottom third across the board.

We sucked defensively and offensively. Without stellar goaltending we'd have been a lottery team that year.

No, you'll have to re-read what I actually wrote.

1.) Subban had never put up points like he did that year. It was his best year offensively to date. So yes, we did have a very good top pairing, and they contributed mightily to our making the playoffs

2.) We probably would have made the playoffs with an average goaltender given our division that year.

It's getting a bit boring: you make these extreme claims with absolutely nothing to support them.

 

[Lafleurs Guy]

1.) Subban had never put up points like he did that year. It was his best year offensively to date. So yes, we did have a very good top pairing, and they contributed mightily to our making the playoffs

2.) We probably would have made the playoffs with an average goaltender given our division that year.

It's getting a bit boring: you make these extreme claims with absolutely nothing to support them.

1. No it wasn't. 2013 he was better and played in fewer games. He'd broken out the year before.

2. Zero chance of making the playoffs with average goaltending in the 2014 season. As I showed you the last time we talked about this, even in 2015 we probably wouldn't have made the playoffs without Price standing on his head and we played much better that year.

 

[NotProkofievian]

1. No it wasn't. 2013 he was better and played in fewer games. He'd broken out the year before.

Wtf are you talking about? P.K. broke out in 2010-11. He had an off year in 2011-12. 2013 was his Norris year, sure, but 2013-14 was largely a continuation of that effort. He increased his best full season offensive output by 15 points.

2. Zero chance of making the playoffs with average goaltending.

Prove it.

 

[Lafleurs Guy]

Wtf are you talking about? P.K. broke out in 2010-11. He had an off year in 2011-12. 2013 was his Norris year, sure, but 2013-14 was largely a continuation of that effort. He increased his best full season offensive output by 15 points.



Prove it.

I already did. You didn't reply.

I'll pull it up again. Forget about 2014, we would've been a lottery team that year. I'll pull up what I showed you for 2015 when we actually played better. Even there we'd be a bubble team and probably would've missed the playoffs entirely.

And btw, that's exactly what happened the following season when Price went down.

As for Subban, you're incorrect. Subban was much better in 2013 and 15 (Hence the Norris votes.) In 2016 he was a Norris shoe in until Price went down and the team tanked but even there he was still really good. In 2014 however MT managed to make him a below 50 CF% player. That's how bad our systems were.

 

[Lafleurs Guy]

Here's an abbreviation of what I wrote:

It's simple mathematics. Substitute an average goalie's numbers for those seasons vs Price on save percentage. Now factor in the number of shots faced. We'd have been a lottery team in 2014 and would've missed in 2015.

The Canadiens can't win a Stanley Cup relying only on Carey Price

In 14/15 The Canadiens finished 20th in the league in goals scored, 25th in shots on goal, and 22nd on the power play. They also allowed the 10th most shots (more than 30 per game) in the league.

FORTY games with Montreal scoring two goals or less that year. 10th worst in the league and our winning percentage in those games was .425. The league average was .271. In games where Price started btw he was an incredible .467. (12-14-5) Our backup in those games averaged .277 right in line with the rest of the league. Close to a .500 record while your team scores two goals or less is insane.

Also notice in that article they say the Habs offense SHOULD be better than it was. That's entirely due to coaching. And we're seeing the opposite now. The reason I haven't blasted Julien is because he's actually got a horrible team playing with decent numbers. Our problem is that we don't have the talent to execute. We don't have guys who can finish and we've got guys on the backend who simply don't have the talent to defend properly.

It was the opposite with Therrien. We had lots of talent under him and it was badly misused, including PK Subban (who was much better in 2015 than 2014.)

 

[NotProkofievian]

I already did. You didn't reply.

Where?

I'll pull it up again. Forget about 2014, we would've been a lottery team that year. I'll pull up what I showed you for 2015 when we actually played better. Even there we'd be a bubble team and probably would've missed the playoffs entirely.

And btw, that's exactly what happened the following season when Price went down.

Lol, forget about the year we're debating, let's talk about the year where Price really was Jesus price.

What happened the following year is we tried to replace Carey Price with ''2017-18 Carey Price'' level goaltending (read: complete KHL level garbage). Not league average.

Prove that in 2014 we would not only perhaps have missed the playoffs in 2014 without ''extremely strong goaltending,'' but that without "extremely strong goaltending" we would have had ''0 chance.''

...or retract the statement.

 

[NotProkofievian]

Here's an abbreviation of what I wrote:

It's simple mathematics. Substitute an average goalie's numbers for those seasons vs Price on save percentage. Now factor in the number of shots faced. We'd have been a lottery team in 2014 and would've missed in 2015.

The Canadiens can't win a Stanley Cup relying only on Carey Price

In 14/15 The Canadiens finished 20th in the league in goals scored, 25th in shots on goal, and 22nd on the power play. They also allowed the 10th most shots (more than 30 per game) in the league.

FORTY games with Montreal scoring two goals or less that year. 10th worst in the league and our winning percentage in those games was .425. The league average was .271. In games where Price started btw he was an incredible .467. (12-14-5) Our backup in those games averaged .277 right in line with the rest of the league. Close to a .500 record while your team scores two goals or less is insane.

Also notice in that article they say the Habs offense SHOULD be better than it was. That's entirely due to coaching. And we're seeing the opposite now. The reason I haven't blasted Julien is because he's actually got a horrible team playing with decent numbers. Our problem is that we don't have the talent to execute. We don't have guys who can finish and we've got guys on the backend who simply don't have the talent to defend properly.

It was the opposite with Therrien. We had lots of talent under him and it was badly misused, including PK Subban (who was much better in 2015 than 2014.)

Lol, that's about 2014-15.

 

[Lafleurs Guy]

Where?



Lol, forget about the year we're debating, let's talk about the year where Price really was Jesus price.

What happened the following year is we tried to replace Carey Price with ''2017-18 Carey Price'' level goaltending (read: complete KHL level garbage). Not league average.

Prove that in 2014 we would not only perhaps have missed the playoffs in 2014 without ''extremely strong goaltending,'' but that without "extremely strong goaltending" we would have had ''0 chance.''

...or retract the statement.

This will be a lot easier to prove.

Lol, that's about 2014-15.

Correct. And we were a 110 point team that year, the previous season we were a 100 point team.

 

[Lafleurs Guy]

Canadiens 2013/14 season
100 points
25th in scoring
25th in CF% at an awful 46%
SA 2542
Team save percentage: .921
Carey Price save percentage: .927
Carey Price Saves/Shots 1694/1828

Average team save percentage in 2013/14: .913 (Edit: actually .910)
Team Save Percentage: 2013-14 NHL Season

1669/1828 = .913
This equals 25 more goals in 59 games. (Edit 31 more goals in 59 games)

Montreal Canadiens
GF 215
GA 204

With adjustment:
Montreal Canadiens
GF 215
GA 229 (Edit: 335)

How the hell is that team supposed to make the playoffs?

Consider this as well, our backup had great numbers because we sheltered him. Price got hurt that year for a couple of weeks and we weren't able to do that anymore. Budaj's numbers suddenly tanked when he had to play real teams. Our numbers would probably have been much worse than just the 25 goals.

You can do this exercise for the 2011 year as well and you'll get similar results. That's why he was 7th in Hart voting that season. And again, look at what happens in 2016 when we actually played well. When Price got hurt we fall to dead last in a lot of categories and bottom third across the board. There's a good reason why people have said that Price is the Montreal Canadiens over the years... he's earned it.

Stop coming in here and saying we'd be a playoff team anyway, there's no way we would've been. Bash him for this season all you want but give credit where it's due.

Edit: Actually it looks like the average save percentage that year was .910. So it would be even more than a 25 goal difference, it would be 31. Either way, we'd have been so f***ed.

 

[swimmer77]

Anze Kopitar scored 12 goals last year...give us your thoughts on the Kings 10.5M dollar man...gotta feeling his 12 goals ranked him lower than 19th lol

See how it works...........

I don't think comparing Price to Kopitar serves much of a purpose but if we do compare..............

1. Kopitar Stanley Cups (2) vs Carey Price (0)

2. Kopitar has been a pretty durable player throughout his career. And that is what scares me more about Carey Price than anything.

Kopitar is a top six center, Now we all know how hard they are to acquire.

Price has had some very good regular seasons but he has nothing worth noting in the post season. If he can return to some of his former play I maybe would be okay with his contract. IDK. But now it even seems like a moot point given the Cap Space that the Habs right now. If I had to pick between Weber and Price, I'd take Price. I see Weber going downhill quicker.

 

[BLONG7]

I don't think comparing Price to Kopitar serves much of a purpose but if we do compare..............

1. Kopitar Stanley Cups (2) vs Carey Price (0)

2. Kopitar has been a pretty durable player throughout his career. And that is what scares me more about Carey Price than anything.

Kopitar is a top six center, Now we all know how hard they are to acquire.

Price has had some very good regular seasons but he has nothing worth noting in the post season. If he can return to some of his former play I maybe would be okay with his contract. IDK. But now it even seems like a moot point given the Cap Space that the Habs right now. If I had to pick between Weber and Price, I'd take Price. I see Weber going downhill quicker.

My point was, Kopitar also had a down year, and can return to form, which he has...and while making 10.5M and no one seems to be calling him out over his contract...

 

[swimmer77]

My point was, Kopitar also had a down year, and can return to form, which he has...and while making 10.5M and no one seems to be calling him out over his contract...

I understood your point. I just counterpointed with the fact that Kopitar has a little bit more to show in two Stanley Cup rings plus some other accomplishments to "earn" that contract. Maybe that is why he has been cut some slack. He also won a Selke which tells me maybe he has added to his defensive game.

We all want Price to "earn" his contract. He just hasn't been the best Carey Price can be and I can't help to think about his physical well being. Can he last?

 

[PaulD]

13-14 was the year 'da system' was implemented. Yes Subban put up points (he always does) but it's his worst year since 2013. Not his fault either, he got Therriened just like the rest of the team did. And he's playing less than half the game. We were consistently outplayed that year and were bottom third across the board.

We sucked defensively and offensively. Without stellar goaltending we'd have been a lottery team that year.

No, you'll have to re-read what I actually wrote.

LG makes great points on this one. With clarity.

 

[Beer and Chips]

The only way this franchise can fix It self with this terrible regime is by fluking at the draft and winning lotteries to pickup can't miss prospects. But even the oilers and sabres have showed that this doesn't work. But Hey, at least guys like mcdavid and eichel are a treat.

Well I would certainly prefer picking a can't miss prospect like McDavid and giving it a go then picking in the 20 to 30 spots for five years.

 

[PaulD]

Well I would certainly prefer picking a can't miss prospect like McDavid and giving it a go then picking in the 20 to 30 spots for five years.

Bruins built a team that contended for several years, then won a cup, contended for several more coming within 2 wins of another cup. Went down for 2-3 seasons and are now a contender again.

Even having nothing really in return for Thorton, Kessel, Seguin........they are a contender as we speak.

Oil, Sabres, Canes, Coyotes, basically tanked for a decade and cant get a sniff on contention.

Tanking is a waste of time if not coupled with smart management.

The process of tanking
-realize you have an incompetent in charge
-admit you have an incompetent in charge
- let the incompetent remain in charge while tanking
- replace the incompetent when rebuild is about to start (this is key)

Only rule of tanking process :

Do not....repeat DO NOT leave the incompetent in charge of the rebuild after tanking.

 

[Catanddogguitarrr]

My point was, Kopitar also had a down year, and can return to form, which he has...and while making 10.5M and no one seems to be calling him out over his contract...

You don't call out a top 6 center just because one bad season. He earned fully his contract and still prove today that LAK did the right choice. Do we know how hard it is to get a top center or I would be redondant?

 

[Catanddogguitarrr]

I understood your point. I just counterpointed with the fact that Kopitar has a little bit more to show in two Stanley Cup rings plus some other accomplishments to "earn" that contract. Maybe that is why he has been cut some slack. He also won a Selke which tells me maybe he has added to his defensive game.

We all want Price to "earn" his contract. He just hasn't been the best Carey Price can be and I can't help to think about his physical well being. Can he last?

The point about Kopitar is clear and I agree with his contract.
But Price's contact, maybe a bit too high. I would be agree with 8,5 M.
And now entering his early 30's, will he last? Can we say he's injury prone?

 

[PaulD]

The point about Kopitar is clear and I agree with his contract.
But Price's contact, maybe a bit too high. I would be agree with 8,5 M.
And now entering his early 30's, will he last? Can we say he's injury prone?

Hard to say. Careys best season was 015. My guess is that wont change.

 

[Shawnathon]

I don’t comment often but this is by far the most cancerous thread I’ve read on HFboards.

 

[bsl]

I don’t comment often but this is by far the most cancerous thread I’ve read on HFboards.

Why? I think it’s been great fun and a good debate.

 

[Shawnathon]

Why? I think it’s been great fun and a good debate.

It kinda seems like a pack of wild dogs attacking raw meat. It’s a little bit sad.

 

[nhlfan9191]

It kinda seems like a pack of wild dogs attacking raw meat. It’s a little bit sad.

We have a reputation as a fanbase for this for a reason. It is what it is. When you cheer for the Habs, it’s pretty much expected.

 

[WickedPegJets]

I wish for both Weber and Price requesting a trade within the next 2 years for full and total rebuild.

Unlike Grneral Manager Stevie Y of the Lightning who allowed superstar Steven Stamkos to reach free agency to resign him (and there were several suitors interested in the 26 year old Stamkos, but he wanted to remain in Tampa Bay and he gave the team a home discount), the idiot Marc Bergevin with dumb owner Geoff Molson’s blessing, resigned Carey Price with more than a year remaining in his contract for an insane eight years, $10.5M per season contract starting at age 30!

Had Price reached free agency in July 1, 2018 and with his lousy play so far this season, what crazy general manager would sign him to a seven year maximum contract duration and at $10.5M annually?

 

[WickedPegJets]

Price is having a really bad season. There's no way around it.

He also had a horrible start. If he had had a better season, we'd still be in the playoff race. If he had had a better start, maybe we don't start the season in a hole and momentum carries us to a better record overall.

Do we lean too much on him? Sure, maybe. But still doesn't change that he's good enough on his own to give us a few more wins, enough to still be in the race.

I just hope he's back to his Vezina/Hart form next year. I still think he has it in him to play at such a level.

 

[Lafleurs Guy]

It kinda seems like a pack of wild dogs attacking raw meat. It’s a little bit sad.

Always the same guys attacking the same players. Same thing with PK Subban.

Unlike Grneral Manager Stevie Y of the Lightning who allowed superstar Steven Stamkos to reach free agency to resign him (and there were several suitors interested in the 26 year old Stamkos, but he wanted to remain in Tampa Bay and he gave the team a home discount), the idiot Marc Bergevin with dumb owner Geoff Molson’s blessing, resigned Carey Price with more than a year remaining in his contract for an insane eight years, $10.5M per season contract starting at age 30!

Had Price reached free agency in July 1, 2018 and with his lousy play so far this season, what crazy general manager would sign him to a seven year maximum contract duration and at $10.5M annually?

He'd still have gotten paid. GMs aren't stupid, they can see the gongshow in front of him. Anytime you can add a star player without giving up any assets you do it.