Value of: Canucks Fire Sale

[quat]

No. Just typically overreaction because he's likely a late bloomer. The kid really shouldn't be playing at the NHL but at the same time, he's above the AHL level. Either way, it's utterly nonsense to value him at that price.



While I do not necessarily disagree. This same argument didn't stop people from decrying the trade for Gudbranson as among the worst ever, all because McCann was a surefire second liner. Even now, people would rather blame Willie or Benning then admit, just maybe, McCann isn't anything special.

I guess hearing what an outstanding drafting guru Benning was and pointing to McCann as evidence of that may have swayed people's opinions a bit.

Who knows what McCann will turn out to be, but he was clearly pushed into a roll on a Canucks squad due to a radical lack of depth, and that's proven at least twice (McCanna and Virtanen) to have been detrimental to player development.

As a Canuck fan, I'm just grateful Boeser had the sense to stay away from this team for another year.

 

[THall4]

So the Canucks got lucky and somehow came away with 4 wins to start the season. But now reality is taking over FAST. Time to trade some assets before theres nothing left to gain from a rebuild or a retool on the fly. IMO its time to blow this thing out of the sky and start over

Hansen to Washington for a 1st/Vrana and 5th round pick

Virtanen to Florida for a 3rd round pick and 4th round pick

Edler to Ottawa for a 1st (2017) and a 2nd in 2018

Miller to LA for a 2nd round pick

Would hate to see Hansen traded but i think it would be best for the team moving fwd. Benning is a bad GM at doing any task of a GM except drafting esp outside of top ten picks so I would LOVE to see him loaded up with picks to find guys like Lockwood Gaudette and Tater Olsen

Other suggestions would be appreciated as well as CONSTRUCUTIVE criticism with the above suggestions

Mr Benning? Is that you?

 

[go comets]

Exactly , the canucks are doing the absolute worst thing they can with these young prospects. Virtanen is a mess, who knows what they will do with Stecher. Trymakin??? Play him or send him home. Utica is a complete mess also, defense is a undersized joke. No scoring. And your prized draft pick Demko gets to try and develop behind all this.

 

[Maurice of Orange]

If Virtanen and Tryamkin were available I'd make an offer to them if I were the GM of the Flyers.
So far this season the Flyers have been getting pushed around on the boards, also not winning a lot of puck battles, and there is little to no physicality coming from the Flyers. Not sure what problems may be ailing the Canucks, and by looking at their roster they look pretty set as far as young defensemen go, so in a trade Vancouver would probably want either young forwards or draft picks, and the Flyers could use a little size up front and on the back end.
So I propose..

To Philadelphia: RW Jake Virtanen, LD Nikita Tryamkin and a 6th round pick in 2018

To Vancouver : C/LW Scott Laughton, LW Taylor Leier and a 2nd round pick in 2017

Virtanen and Laughton could both use a change of scenery, Laughton may very well do better with a western conference team, and Leier could develop into a 3rd or 4th line role player for the Canucks.
The main reason why I even made this proposal was for Tryamkin, The Flyers defense has been pushed around and they desperately need another big man besides Gudas.

If this trade were made, Virtanen would be send to Lehigh Valley AHL along with Flyers defensemen Andrew MacDonald, and Tryamkin would be the 6th or 7th defensemen on the Flyers.
This trade isn't so much of a trade for today, but is a trade for the future, which is why I included draft picks.

 

[biturbo19]

Say the Canucks did do a fire sale who exactly is getting traded? Sedins no, Lou E just got signed bad precedent to trade recently signed UFA. Realistically only guys getting possibly moved are Burrows, Dorsett, Hansen, Sbisa and Miller really other then Miller and Hansen maybe Burrows I don't see anyone else getting traded sadly. Yes we could move younger players but whats point? Let's hope we can get a late 1st for Hansen and a 2nd for Miller at deadline and hopefully Jackets give us the 2nd they owe us probably not though until 2018. Fire sale is just not happening here.

This is what i don't understand at all about this idea that the Canucks should be doing a firesale and "blowing it up".

What does that even mean?


The Sedins? Good luck moving them.

Edler? Doesn't want to leave.

Tanev? Why for even? He's still young and not the type who will fetch a core piece in return.

Eriksson? Just signed, and realistically his contract makes him unmoveable now, like every other top UFA.

Sutter? Okay, maybe you could move him...but with his contract, not for much of anything that'll kickstart a rebuild.

Hansen? Probably net a quality prospect or pick, but hardly a franchise changing return. At best, you're talking about a roulette wheel on whether you ever even get a Hansen calibre player out of the swap.

Miller? Even with retained salary, how many teams are seriously looking to acquire an aged starting goaltender at the deadline? Miller already showed last time around that it works extremely poorly. Nobody is giving up anything important.


The rest is just aged vets with little or even negative value...irrelevant fringe players...or young players who make no sense to move in a "rebuild".


Of course, there's the Sedins...but good ****ing luck trading them. $14M of salary with NTCs. What contender has not only the room to add that, but the will to add them...at the cost of quality future assets which would actually significantly help the Canucks "rebuild"?

 

[Randy Randerson]

This is what i don't understand at all about this idea that the Canucks should be doing a firesale and "blowing it up".

What does that even mean?


The Sedins? Good luck moving them.

Edler? Doesn't want to leave.

Tanev? Why for even? He's still young and not the type who will fetch a core piece in return.

Eriksson? Just signed, and realistically his contract makes him unmoveable now, like every other top UFA.

Sutter? Okay, maybe you could move him...but with his contract, not for much of anything that'll kickstart a rebuild.

Hansen? Probably net a quality prospect or pick, but hardly a franchise changing return. At best, you're talking about a roulette wheel on whether you ever even get a Hansen calibre player out of the swap.

Miller? Even with retained salary, how many teams are seriously looking to acquire an aged starting goaltender at the deadline? Miller already showed last time around that it works extremely poorly. Nobody is giving up anything important.


The rest is just aged vets with little or even negative value...irrelevant fringe players...or young players who make no sense to move in a "rebuild".


Of course, there's the Sedins...but good ****ing luck trading them. $14M of salary with NTCs. What contender has not only the room to add that, but the will to add them...at the cost of quality future assets which would actually significantly help the Canucks "rebuild"?

I think Tanev is the piece that could bring back a really decent return, maybe not a top 20 prospect but a package of things that could help

I'm a leaf fan, if the leafs were starting to compete near the trade deadline (otherwise we continue to wait) I would offer JVR+Kapanen+our 1st rounder (at that point probably a mid round pick). JVR could be flipped for another 1st rounder from a contender and likely a B+ prospect

With the Sedins, if they were playing well next year I think you could get a decent return from a contender. Has Vancouver retained on any trades yet? If not, retaining on dealing them could make them valuable now

Edler I'm sure you would get a 1st rounder for from a contender

Then if the team is bad, your own 1st round pick gets to be the in the range that it could land an impact prospect

I don't think a rebuild would happen overnight, with the contracts you guys have it would take a little while to undo that situation, but it can be done and I think you have some pieces that would net decent enough returns that they could help a lot if you got lucky in the draft or with the prospects that were returned

I know this draft isn't considered to be very deep, but if you look at the second half of the 2013-2015 first rounds you'll find some players who are going to be very good and I think you guys have the pieces to get 2-3 picks in that range

 

[nuckfan insk]

Without reading the whole thread ... Ottawa says no to this for this season, but probably considers Edler at the 2017 draft. ...

- it is possible (likely) that Ottawa has to expose and lose Methot in the expansion draft
- Ottawa doesn't have $6m to spend right now
- Edler's contract expires June 2018, which means that they can possibly negotiate an extension before acquiring him.

If a deal were done at the draft what would you offer ? (Post Las Vegas expansion draft)

 

[gianni]

To Philadelphia: RW Jake Virtanen, LD Nikita Tryamkin and a 6th round pick in 2018

To Vancouver : C/LW Scott Laughton, LW Taylor Leier and a 2nd round pick in 2017

Not close at all.
Jake Virtanen & Nikita Tryamkin have a higher ceiling than the players offered; they're also younger, and in the early stages of their development.

If the Canucks were looking to trade people, it'd likely be Luca Sbisa, Derek Dorsett, and Sven Baertschi. If Philly needs toughness, they can trade for Sbisa & Dorsett.

 

[DirtyMitts]

If the Habs are in for a cup run, is something along the lines of :

Daniel Sedin + Henrik Sedin (1.5mil retained each) + Markus Granlund
vs
Plekanec + Desharnais + Scherbak + Hudon + 1st pick 2017

possible ?

Desharnais is clearly cap dump but his contract ends at the end of the year. Plekanec can "replace" Henrik on your first line and you get good prospects in Scherbak, Hudon, plus a first pick. As for us, we get a good two-way player to center our third line and replace Desharnais in Markus Granlund plus two premier offensive weapons for the cup run.

 

[JonnyCanuck604]

As an outsider, is Virtanen really only worth a 3rd and 4th round pick? What has he done (or not done)!to decrease his value so much, so quickly?

Typical Canuck fan who believes that a top 6 guy can produce those numbers playing 7 mins a night.

Once you upset twitch your forced to go public pissing off certain fans who ironically say he is immature since he is a kid and only vets have the right to say something. When those same people call him immature for speaking out loud Yet it isn't immature ,when grown men who should no better do the same.

fwiw He went about it in an honest way. Some believe he talked to WD first got nowhere and aired some laundry, all which was true imho.

I won't go into too much of the specifics, Basically he doesn;t know what role to play. He has been told they see him as top 6, yet how can he do that playing the sporadic mins he plays.

Last pre-season and this one, the line of Bo Bar and Virt looked realy good. I think Bo and Virt had 2 goals in 2 games, and Bar had 1 abd one. Yet hr has Jack skille instaed of Jake.

I know the Anti Jake people will say WD is right he has to earn them. He was one of our best players after Jan, and has earned at least 10 games on a top 9 roll or 2a and 2b. If he shows no promise than send him down. At least he will only have himself to blame and can work on whatever held him back.

Unfortunately, unless you play MJ in medicine hat, or named Vey- Dorsett, good luck

Jakes only hope is that JB nudges a proper stint to assess where Jake is And he takes the shot and runs with it.

then the only problem were gonna have is when WD sticks Rodin on the 4th

 

[Skirbs1011]

If the Habs are in for a cup run, is something along the lines of :

Daniel Sedin + Henrik Sedin (1.5mil retained each) + Markus Granlund
vs
Plekanec + Desharnais + Scherbak + Hudon + 1st pick 2017

possible ?

Desharnais is clearly cap dump but his contract ends at the end of the year. Plekanec can "replace" Henrik on your first line and you get good prospects in Scherbak, Hudon, plus a first pick. As for us, we get a good two-way player to center our third line and replace Desharnais in Markus Granlund plus two premier offensive weapons for the cup run.

Not a deal I would do, Personally Sergachev is the only thing Montreal has that I would target in a deal.

 

[yvrtojfk]

What's the value of Alex Edler? I was going to start a thread but figured I'd just add this question here.

Canucks would like to stockpile picks and prospects preferably. Would also entertain cap dumps to maximize Canucks' return.

 

[JonnyCanuck604]

I guess hearing what an outstanding drafting guru Benning was and pointing to McCann as evidence of that may have swayed people's opinions a bit.

Who knows what McCann will turn out to be, but he was clearly pushed into a roll on a Canucks squad due to a radical lack of depth, and that's proven at least twice (McCanna and Virtanen) to have been detrimental to player development.

As a Canuck fan, I'm just grateful Boeser had the sense to stay away from this team for another year.

If anything if we struggle this year Brock knows he will have a chance right off the hop to turn this team around along with Olli and Demko (who needs out of that trainwreck asap. Jacob is ready as a #1 Make a deal with LA or Arizona unload miller retain half his salary take on a small dump if going to the Kings. take back Kempe and a 3rd . Or a 1st fom the yotes top 3 protected Though with Miller it would be more of a middling pick. Pieces can be added by the nucks maybe CLB 2nd

I would have been the first person 2 weeks ago that Miller will never return more than a second. With LA-Arizona losing there #1s for the majority of the season Millers value has gone up substantially Plus you can expose him in the draft if you want

I am not saying a deal will happen., but LA makes so much sense. With us retaining plus taking back a dump not named Brown Is well worth Kempe and a1st for Miller and a 3rd. I doubt GMDL wants to roll the dice on Budaj till March Playoff revenue is huge to those Cali teams. plus LA is all about what's hot atm. If the kings start sucking so will their attendance

 

[JonnyCanuck604]

No strategy? Is building from the goaltender out not a strategy?


All of these teams traded multiple 1st rounders, in many cases before the pick was even drafted for older vets to try and win now, Benning has traded two former 1st rounders for players we need now and in the future, that are below the age of 25, not the same at all, he has also built from the goal out, our blue line is in far better shape then when he took over. We have one of the best goalie prospects in the world to go along with a guy in Markstrom who looks better every year. He has traded multiple 2nd rounders which I am not a fan of, I'll give you that, he has bled away too many assets, most of which have been picks that are at best 3rd liners or bottom pairing dmen. Not exactly detrimental. Also, Benning said months ago that he would not be trading away picks so generously any more.

You clearly hate everything that Benning is doing, other than the obvious (not giving up 2nd and 3rd round picks so easily) what would you do differently? Really curious?

Great points. As for getting any facts to back up all these horrible trades, and how MCann is a stud in the making. Zero points playing top 6 minutes not quite trending the way the haters gushed that he would. The bottom line is all your gonna get is all these terrible trades and signings, yet nobody actually backs them up.

And are the same ankle breakers who will Call JB a genius and thought so from the start when Brocks notching 40 Virts poppin 30 and Olli is putting up 4o from the back end and is a top 1 in 3 years.

Sure that could all blow up in NUcks fans faces and they all bust, and JB makes some terrible trades. Based on how much better this team is from the net out with a d that's night and day. All the JB haters would gladly love to have Tro-Olli and Brock in there system Subann as well. The first 3 all look like they have the IQ to hit their ceilings Olli a point a game on a much depleted London squad and he's putting up better numbers. Brok is averaging 2.50 pts a game in the best conference in the NCAA and having lost 2 well above average linemates from last year.

And Troy well he has Tyson Berrie written all over him, kid is frigging amazing.

Throw in Granlund-Sutter-Ber and guddy. And I think his whole body of work has been pretty damn good considering what he inherited.

 

[HasbeenHallzy]

We're a disaster, but its not all Bennings fault like people are quick to suggest.

 

[PetterssonSimp]

We're a disaster, but its not all Bennings fault like people are quick to suggest.

I'd be more quick to look at a head coach to seems to get out coached more often than not and can't seem to adjust a PP that isn't working mid game.
Sure you can scream about the lowest shot generating PP and all, but doesn't that play into who he is choosing as personnel as much as the guys not shooting? Putting 4 passers and one shooting defender together on one PP that's expected to generate the majority of the offence just doesn't seem smart.

 

[Nucklehead Supreme]

I'd be more quick to look at a head coach to seems to get out coached more often than not and can't seem to adjust a PP that isn't working mid game.
Sure you can scream about the lowest shot generating PP and all, but doesn't that play into who he is choosing as personnel as much as the guys not shooting? Putting 4 passers and one shooting defender together on one PP that's expected to generate the majority of the offence just doesn't seem smart.

I can see where your coming from, and this is something that has really annoyed me about WD, his inability to adjust. I wonder whether it's the players he has to work with though, and I firmly believe that is Gillis's fault.

 

[gianni]

I'd be more quick to look at a head coach to seems to get out coached more often than not and can't seem to adjust a PP that isn't working mid game.
Sure you can scream about the lowest shot generating PP and all, but doesn't that play into who he is choosing as personnel as much as the guys not shooting? Putting 4 passers and one shooting defender together on one PP that's expected to generate the majority of the offence just doesn't seem smart.

I agree. WD has to be better, or the Canucks should bring in Travis Green.

All the frequent line juggling is getting to be annoying; some players need time to develop chemistry w/ others. We heard it last year from Radim Vrbata, (who happens to have 6pts in 8 games under a new coach), and this year from Jake Virtanen -- STOP W/ THE LINE JUGGLING ALL 82 GAMES + PRESEASON. And the Bo Horvat on the 4th Line experiment? How f-n stupid was that? You could maybe try that in practice, or even preseason, but in a regular season game? Come on.

I also dislike how Nikita Tryamkin is being handled: apparently he came into camp in better shape than when he was at the end of last season (when he was getting playing time); Tryamkin should've been played in some of those 6 games in 9 days at the start of the season to give other players a rest.

 

[PetterssonSimp]

I can see where your coming from, and this is something that has really annoyed me about WD, his inability to adjust. I wonder whether it's the players he has to work with though, and I firmly believe that is Gillis's fault.

Idk about that last part, most of the Gillis regime is gone. This is especially true in the depth positions where probably the last holdover of that regime is Burrows and that could have been resolved back during the Buyout's that didn't cost against the cap. Instead of buying Ballard and Booth out when Booth had 1 season remaining and Burrows like 4 it could have made sense to buy Burrows out and used the 13.5 million the following offseason on something that wouldn't have been Miller and Vrbata.
But hindsight right.

I agree. WD has to be better, or the Canucks should bring in Travis Green.

All the frequent line juggling is getting to be annoying; some players need time to develop chemistry w/ others. We heard it last year from Radim Vrbata, (who happens to have 6pts in 8 games under a new coach), and this year from Jake Virtanen -- STOP W/ THE LINE JUGGLING ALL 82 GAMES + PRESEASON. And the Bo Horvat on the 4th Line experiment? How f-n stupid was that? You could maybe try that in practice, or even preseason, but in a regular season game? Come on.

I also dislike how Nikita Tryamkin is being handled: apparently he came into camp in better shape than when he was at the end of last season (when he was getting playing time); Tryamkin should've been played in some of those 6 games in 9 days at the start of the season to give other players a rest.

IMHO throwing Travis Green to the fire would be a mistake. We need an experienced guy to come in and insolate Green as an NHL coach even if it's for one season. I'd like Crow in that spot for myself, but that might just be my bias.
With the PP I see a few problems in personnel, Larsen and Sutter with the Sedins. Loading up our only right hand shots able of any PP time puts too much pressure on the top unit to produce when they haven't been. Move Hutton to #1PP as the D with Sutter still at the offwing shot or Sutter to #2PP at centre to create a faceoff matchup for other teams to worry about with Bo and Sutter on the same PP.
Possibly move to a Sedin Sedin Sutter Hutton Eriksson #1PP with more movement option between each Sedin and Eriksson in the umbrella setup or Sedin Sedin Eriksson Larsen Edler more traditional PP. (I say Larsen as I have zero faith in the team keeping Stecher up when Tanev is healthy) This also allows a Bae Sutter Bo with Edler and a forward you can rotate in between Hansen, Burrows and Granlund depending on who is scoring and what you need. Net front presence in Hansen Burrows or playmaking in Granlund. Otherwise you swap Hutton and Edler if you go traditional #1PP.
If you go with the healthy players we have,
Sedin Sedin Hansen
Eriksson Horvat Virtanen
Granlund Sutter Bae
4th line fodder Gaunce 4th line fodder

Edler Stecher
Hutton Gudbranson
Tryamkin Sbisa
Larsen Biega

Marky
Miller

(Reading Botch'a article last night claiming Miller has been better than Marky has not passed the eye test for me. I'll also still admit I don't feel Stecher isn't physically strong enough for the 82 game grind, clearly smart enough and skilled enough. But defenders need strength to hang in there as well)

 

[Billy Kvcmu]

You are GOLD MTB

 

[Nucklehead Supreme]

Idk about that last part, most of the Gillis regime is gone. This is especially true in the depth positions where probably the last holdover of that regime is Burrows and that could have been resolved back during the Buyout's that didn't cost against the cap. Instead of buying Ballard and Booth out when Booth had 1 season remaining and Burrows like 4 it could have made sense to buy Burrows out and used the 13.5 million the following offseason on something that wouldn't have been Miller and Vrbata.
But hindsight right.



IMHO throwing Travis Green to the fire would be a mistake. We need an experienced guy to come in and insolate Green as an NHL coach even if it's for one season. I'd like Crow in that spot for myself, but that might just be my bias.
With the PP I see a few problems in personnel, Larsen and Sutter with the Sedins. Loading up our only right hand shots able of any PP time puts too much pressure on the top unit to produce when they haven't been. Move Hutton to #1PP as the D with Sutter still at the offwing shot or Sutter to #2PP at centre to create a faceoff matchup for other teams to worry about with Bo and Sutter on the same PP.
Possibly move to a Sedin Sedin Sutter Hutton Eriksson #1PP with more movement option between each Sedin and Eriksson in the umbrella setup or Sedin Sedin Eriksson Larsen Edler more traditional PP. (I say Larsen as I have zero faith in the team keeping Stecher up when Tanev is healthy) This also allows a Bae Sutter Bo with Edler and a forward you can rotate in between Hansen, Burrows and Granlund depending on who is scoring and what you need. Net front presence in Hansen Burrows or playmaking in Granlund. Otherwise you swap Hutton and Edler if you go traditional #1PP.
If you go with the healthy players we have,
Sedin Sedin Hansen
Eriksson Horvat Virtanen
Granlund Sutter Bae
4th line fodder Gaunce 4th line fodder

Edler Stecher
Hutton Gudbranson
Tryamkin Sbisa
Larsen Biega

Marky
Miller

(Reading Botch'a article last night claiming Miller has been better than Marky has not passed the eye test for me. I'll also still admit I don't feel Stecher isn't physically strong enough for the 82 game grind, clearly smart enough and skilled enough. But defenders need strength to hang in there as well)

I've been thinking this too actually.

My point on Gillis is the fact that he drafted so terribly, he did not leave this team with any young players to work with really, Horvat and Hutton aside.

 

[Cquant]

What's the value of Alex Edler? I was going to start a thread but figured I'd just add this question here.

Canucks would like to stockpile picks and prospects preferably. Would also entertain cap dumps to maximize Canucks' return.

A first would almost definitely need to be coming back unless someone is willing to offer a good prospect.
Preferably forward prospects. But I feel like any trade for Edler would need to return a LHD.

 

[Nucklehead Supreme]

A first would almost definitely need to be coming back unless someone is willing to offer a good prospect.
Preferably forward prospects. But I feel like any trade for Edler would need to return a LHD.

I disagree a 1st for sure, but our blue line is pretty set, we need top six F more than anything else.

 

[ginner classic]

Over the next 12 months we ahould be targeting cap dumps that come with a prospect or pick.

Filppula - off season. He's been effective for Tampa so far. Not an issue until the expansion draft.
Stoner - anytime would need to get Theodore in the deal
Emelin - anytime could be part of an Edler trade
Niemi - between now and the deadline. Could pair with a Ryan Miller trade

 

[KingCanadain1976]

If anything if we struggle this year Brock knows he will have a chance right off the hop to turn this team around along with Olli and Demko (who needs out of that trainwreck asap. Jacob is ready as a #1 Make a deal with LA or Arizona unload miller retain half his salary take on a small dump if going to the Kings. take back Kempe and a 3rd . Or a 1st fom the yotes top 3 protected Though with Miller it would be more of a middling pick. Pieces can be added by the nucks maybe CLB 2nd

I would have been the first person 2 weeks ago that Miller will never return more than a second. With LA-Arizona losing there #1s for the majority of the season Millers value has gone up substantially Plus you can expose him in the draft if you want

I am not saying a deal will happen., but LA makes so much sense. With us retaining plus taking back a dump not named Brown Is well worth Kempe and a1st for Miller and a 3rd. I doubt GMDL wants to roll the dice on Budaj till March Playoff revenue is huge to those Cali teams. plus LA is all about what's hot atm. If the kings start sucking so will their attendance

Miller is not worth a 1st let alone adding our top prospect to in kempe to it. A 36 year old goalie coming off a 17 win 24 loss season with a 2.70gga Again its only a 2 month 2 week bandaid. No way in hell is that worth a 1st and kempe. As stated in other threads 3rd round pick for miller at 50% take it or we will stay with what we have no with no problems Also Check ur facts on attendance figures The kings have been top 10 for the last 20 years in attendance Most of them in our suck years.