Value of: Canucks Fire Sale

[Addison Rae]

Development isn't linear, just because he was a 4/5 two seasons ago doesn't mean he isn't now. Over the past 3 season his even strength minutes and results have suggested he's a 4/5. I'm not saying he doesn't have room to grow, or that he's a bad player I'm simply suggesting it's factually incorrect to anoint him a top 4 player, when he's a 4/5. When I think of a top 4 guy I think of a player that's capable of anchoring a 2nd pair and being able to move up in the lineup when needed, like I suggested Jason Garrison is the epitome of a guy I consider a "top 4 dman"

 

[Canuck Luck]

Development isn't linear, just because he was a 4/5 two seasons ago doesn't mean he isn't now. Over the past 3 season his even strength minutes and results have suggested he's a 4/5. I'm not saying he doesn't have room to grow, or that he's a bad player I'm simply suggesting it's factually incorrect to anoint him a top 4 player, when he's a 4/5. When I think of a top 4 guy I think of a player that's capable of anchoring a 2nd pair and being able to move up in the lineup when needed, like I suggested Jason Garrison is the epitome of a guy I consider a "top 4 dman"

That is not true at all. Development CAN be linear. To say it can't be as a definitive is wrong. In the case of Gudbranson it has been. He was a #4 because he was Florida's best option. They tried bringing in proven guys to push Gudbranson down the depth chart as he was young and was thrust into the role but he ended up outplaying each replacement by the end of their 1st year to have the team not re-sign them or have them play the role Gudbranson originally was pushed down to.

In the case of last season he kept progressing to the point he was considered the most reliable d-man on the team come playoffs. Why else would he receive the most ATOI and 2nd most EV ATOI over guys like Campbell and Ekblad?

Also again just because you think Garrison is the epitome of a top 4 d-man doesn't mean thats what a top 4 d-man has to be otherwise its just arbitrary and up to each individuals own personal opinion. In terms of facts, a top 4 d-man is a d-man that plays on either the 1st or 2nd pairing, playing top 4 minutes (18-20) and is seen as such by management. Gudbranson fits that to a T. He played on the 2nd pairing with Mitchell or Campbell when things were shuffled and was 4th in ATOI.

IMO Garrison is a 3. I think most would agree with me on that. There inlies why you seem to think Gudbranson isn't a 4 and is a 4/5. Also the fact you think a 4 should be able to carry a 2nd pairing. If a 4 could do that, why do good teams generally pay a lot to have a top 3 and then tend to have a below average 4 and a weak 5/6? a 4 can carry a 3rd pairing, he can't carry a 2nd pairing.

 

[Addison Rae]

I'm sorry but this is absolutely ridiculous. Suggesting that a guy that ranked 5th, 4th and 5th on his team in even strength minutes is "absolutely a top 4 player" is just plain and simply wrong. This data literally falls into place with exactly what I suggested he was a 4/5 with top 4 upside. Over the past 3 seasons Jonathan Ericsson has been 4th, 5th, 5th on the Red Wings in even strength minutes per game, do you also consider him absolutely a top 4 dman?

You're not disaproving anything I'm suggesting he's been 4th and 5th in ice time on the Panthers d-core the past 3 years, he churns out 4/5 dman results at even strength yet you're calling him clearly a top 4 guy? Can he grow into a top 4 guy, absolutely but he;s never been that over a large sample size in his career.

 

[Canuck Luck]

I'm sorry but this is absolutely ridiculous. Suggesting that a guy that ranked 5th, 4th and 5th on his team in even strength minutes is "absolutely a top 4 player" is just plain and simply wrong. This data literally falls into place with exactly what I suggested he was a 4/5 with top 4 upside. Over the past 3 seasons Jonathan Ericsson has been 4th, 5th, 5th on the Red Wings in even strength minutes per game, do you also consider him absolutely a top 4 dman?

You're not disaproving anything I'm suggesting he's been 4th and 5th in ice time on the Panthers d-core the past 3 years, he churns out 4/5 dman results at even strength yet you're calling him clearly a top 4 guy? Can he grow into a top 4 guy, absolutely but he;s never been that over a large sample size in his career.

LOL make up your mind is it 4 5 4 or 5 5 4? you keep going back between the 2 whenever it supports your argument that you're trying to make. Whether it is to discredit 4 4 5 or if it's to make it look worse with 5 5 4.

You say you said 4 5 when you never did and then agree to go with that and now again you switch back. I used NHL.com's official ice time on their stats website and Gudbranson's EV ATOI is 1 second less than Mitchell in 2015/2016. Gudbranson averaged more ATOI overall over the course of a game. So Gudbranson was 4th in ice time for all purposes

Also why is EV ATOI the be all end all? Ghost was 6th in ATOI EV for the Flyers but was 2 seconds off being tied for 3rd in ATOI total. Maybe just maybe it goes to show ATOI overall matters just as much if not more? Ghost definitely is not a #6 d-man but by your logic in regards to ice time he is

 

[Rebuilt]

What do the Nucks want for Horvat?

 

[Canuck Luck]

What do the Nucks want for Horvat?

Nothing the Oilers would give up. Him, Hutton, Boeser, Demko, Juleovi and Stecher are the untouchables for us fans. Tanev is someone that would require an overpayment.

 

[Addison Rae]

LOL make up your mind is it 4 5 4 or 5 5 4? you keep going back between the 2 whenever it supports your argument that you're trying to make. Whether it is to discredit 4 4 5 or if it's to make it look worse with 5 5 4.

You say you said 4 5 when you never did and then agree to go with that and now again you switch back. I used NHL.com's official ice time on their stats website and Gudbranson's EV ATOI is 1 second less than Mitchell in 2015/2016. Gudbranson averaged more ATOI overall over the course of a game. So Gudbranson was 4th in ice time for all purposes

Also why is EV ATOI the be all end all? Ghost was 6th in ATOI EV for the Flyers but was 2 seconds off being tied for 3rd in ATOI total. Maybe just maybe it goes to show ATOI overall matters just as much if not more? Ghost definitely is not a #6 d-man but by your logic in regards to ice time he is

Huh? I seriously don't think you read my posts. This entire time I've suggested that per behindthenet.ca his even strength ice time has been 5,4,5 among Panthers dman. I'm not changing my stance, I never have one. Y

What do you mean I never said he was a 4/5? I literally have at least 4 times, I've said it since we acquired him what the **** are you talking about man?

 

[Canuck Luck]

Huh? I seriously don't think you read my posts. This entire time I've suggested that per behindthenet.ca his even strength ice time has been 5,4,5 among Panthers dman. I'm not changing my stance, I never have one. Y

What do you mean I never said he was a 4/5? I literally have at least 4 times, I've said it since we acquired him what the **** are you talking about man?

you originally said in the last 3 years he was 5th in toi 2/3 years and 4th 1/3. When I brought up he was 4th 2/3 and 5th 1/3 you went on to dispute why being #4 in TOI 2/3 past years doesnt mean he was a #4. Now you are back to saying he was 5th in toi 2/3 years and 4th once even though I've proven that to be false.

I'm not going to keep going in circles with you. I've already disproven it with 2 other sites proving that the stats you have are wrong and he was at worst 1 second off from EV TOI PG but had more TOI PG.

I did make an error in thinking whilst you were disputing why being 4th 2/3 years and 1/3 years still doesn't mean he was a top 4 dman that you were saying that was the original stat you had said. But in fairness you also have made reading errors too. Like the whole Sbisa thing. Once I called you out on ignoring it because you were caught making up facts you changed your words to claiming to have said that Sbisa played similar minutes. In reality you said this "18 minutes a game is absolutely not top 4 minutes, this argument suggests that Luca Sbisa is a top 4 guy. " That does not say or insinuate that Sbisa plays similar minutes as to 18 min per game. That insinuates he plays 18+ a game.

 

[BurgoShark]

Edler to Ottawa for a 1st (2017) and a 2nd in 2018

Without reading the whole thread ... Ottawa says no to this for this season, but probably considers Edler at the 2017 draft. ...

- it is possible (likely) that Ottawa has to expose and lose Methot in the expansion draft
- Ottawa doesn't have $6m to spend right now
- Edler's contract expires June 2018, which means that they can possibly negotiate an extension before acquiring him.

 

[TT1]

Has Tanev ever played on the left side?

 

[Bourne Endeavor]

As an outsider, is Virtanen really only worth a 3rd and 4th round pick? What has he done (or not done)!to decrease his value so much, so quickly?

No. Just typically overreaction because he's likely a late bloomer. The kid really shouldn't be playing at the NHL but at the same time, he's above the AHL level. Either way, it's utterly nonsense to value him at that price.

6 game sample size, dear god. I clearly said objectively show how he's a top 4 dman over a large sample size. If you can't do that you're not objecting to what I'm saying.

While I do not necessarily disagree. This same argument didn't stop people from decrying the trade for Gudbranson as among the worst ever, all because McCann was a surefire second liner. Even now, people would rather blame Willie or Benning then admit, just maybe, McCann isn't anything special.

 

[clunk]

What do the Nucks want for Horvat?

So you can just make him a 3rd or 4th liner?

Ryan Nugent Hopkins would need to be coming back for me.

I'd add a bit to make it happen.

 

[clunk]

Has Tanev ever played on the left side?

Last time I remember him playing the left side was in the stanley cup final vs Boston with Bieksa. He was calm and steady in that like always but that was 5 years ago, so I'm not sure that he'd be suited to it. Who knows. Plus he has a wet noodle for a shot so one time ability wouldn't be something that you put Tanev on that left side for.

 

[M2Beezy]

LOL so you're saying 33rd overall pick and a 4th > Gudbranson and a 5th?

That's basically 33rd for Gudbranson. I hate Benning too but this is just being blinded by that hate. Just because all he got for Garrison (who had a NTC and picked where he got to go which lowers his value) was a 2nd, does not mean 2nd pairing d-men are only worth 2nd round picks max.


Adam Larsson who is 11 months younger, 1 less season of experience, is a comparable player to Guds. Of course Larsson is better, but not by a huge amount. He cost Taylor Hall. Yet a 2nd and swapping a 4th for 5th is overpayment for Gudbranson LOL

Larsson is a #2 or 3 dman. Gubranson is a #5 or 6. Big diffy there

And to make the Garrison thing even worse that 2nd we got for him turned into Linden friggin Vey

FIRE LINDEN
FIRE BENNING
FIRE WD

 

[TT1]

Last time I remember him playing the left side was in the stanley cup final vs Boston with Bieksa. He was calm and steady in that like always but that was 5 years ago, so I'm not sure that he'd be suited to it. Who knows. Plus he has a wet noodle for a shot so one time ability wouldn't be something that you put Tanev on that left side for.

Assuming he can play on the left side i'd do something around Sergachev for Tanev. Sergachev is a LD who likes playing on the right side so Vancouver can build their d-core around a Juolevi - Sergachev pairing.

 

[Nucklehead Supreme]

Larsson is a #2 or 3 dman. Gubranson is a #5 or 6. Big diffy there

And to make the Garrison thing even worse that 2nd we got for him turned into Linden friggin Vey

FIRE LINDEN
FIRE BENNING
FIRE WD

Welll he wasn't on Florida and he isn't for us, so no he is not a 5 or 6. He is at the very least a #4 which is why we acquired him.

 

[Nucklehead Supreme]

Huh? I seriously don't think you read my posts. This entire time I've suggested that per behindthenet.ca his even strength ice time has been 5,4,5 among Panthers dman. I'm not changing my stance, I never have one. Y

What do you mean I never said he was a 4/5? I literally have at least 4 times, I've said it since we acquired him what the **** are you talking about man?

I love this argument that he isn't a #4 because of even strength ice time over Mitchell yet he played 4 more minutes overall a game. Overall is less important than ES? The fact that his coach trusts him in special teams roles, means he isn't a #4? WOW

 

[PetterssonSimp]

I love this argument that he isn't a #4 because of even strength ice time over Mitchell yet he played 4 more minutes overall a game. Overall is less important than ES? The fact that his coach trusts him in special teams roles, means he isn't a #4? WOW

We haven't seen eye to eye on much. But this is bang on. I'd equate overall time on ice is as important if not more so than just even strength.
Willie Mitchell has never been a PP defender and Guddy has been on the 2PP unit for having a pretty big shot.
Which is quite funny as a name I've seen more thrown around in here lately is Larsson who has played a similar role as Guddy.

 

[M2Beezy]

Welll he wasn't on Florida and he isn't for us, so no he is not a 5 or 6. He is at the very least a #4 which is why we acquired him.

He WAS there WORST dman last year and the Canucks are a 28th place team. The #4 for Vancouver would be the 5 or 6 or 7 on a REAL team

 

[clunk]

Assuming he can play on the left side i'd do something around Sergachev for Tanev. Sergachev is a LD who likes playing on the right side so Vancouver can build their d-core around a Juolevi - Sergachev pairing.

I'm not too sure. I'm sure he'd prefer to play the right side but it's Chris Tanev. He'd be fine imo. And I would take that deal. Maybe a tiny bit of an add on from your side since Tanev is so established. Like a 3rd or 4th. I think Juolevi and Sergachev would actually be a really good pairing because of their differing playstyles.

 

[Killer Orcas]

Say the Canucks did do a fire sale who exactly is getting traded? Sedins no, Lou E just got signed bad precedent to trade recently signed UFA. Realistically only guys getting possibly moved are Burrows, Dorsett, Hansen, Sbisa and Miller really other then Miller and Hansen maybe Burrows I don't see anyone else getting traded sadly. Yes we could move younger players but whats point? Let's hope we can get a late 1st for Hansen and a 2nd for Miller at deadline and hopefully Jackets give us the 2nd they owe us probably not though until 2018. Fire sale is just not happening here.

 

[Bourne Endeavor]

He WAS there WORST dman last year and the Canucks are a 28th place team. The #4 for Vancouver would be the 5 or 6 or 7 on a REAL team

And being paired with the corpse of Willie Mitchell or utilized above his skill set being partnered with Ekblad had nothing whatsoever to do with him having a rough year. If that's the case, I guess Edler isn't that good after all. I mean, he had an abysmal season with Torts and since one bad season defines a career. Edler now sucks.

 

[Canuck Luck]

He WAS there WORST dman last year and the Canucks are a 28th place team. The #4 for Vancouver would be the 5 or 6 or 7 on a REAL team

Logic lol. I guess Ekblad is a #3/4/5 on a real team since he was a #2 for Florida last year? That Morgan Reilly guy must be a 4/5 max since he was a top pairing guy on the last place team.

How do you quantify him as being their worst d-man exactly? I can name 5 d-men the Panthers had last season worse than Gudbranson, Panthers fans themselves have loved Gudbranson and said he is a shutdown 2nd pairing guy but don't expect anything else from him. The coaches in Florida saw him as their best d-man in the playoffs as evident by his ice time but with no proof provided you say he was the worst.

 

[Nucklehead Supreme]

He WAS there WORST dman last year and the Canucks are a 28th place team. The #4 for Vancouver would be the 5 or 6 or 7 on a REAL team

Just because you don't like the player does not make him their worst Dman, you know that right?

 

[DeltaSwede]

He WAS there WORST dman last year and the Canucks are a 28th place team. The #4 for Vancouver would be the 5 or 6 or 7 on a REAL team

You are so clueless on such a consistent basis, it's quite impressive actually.