Proposal: Zibanejad to the Avs

[CobraAcesS]

How can you definitively say that we won't fill it internally in the next two years? That's where I run into issues. I can't definitively say that Compher won't become a ROR type guy. Or that Kerfoot isn't capable of more than what he's shown so far. I also don't think we've seen the best of Jost, or Kamanev, so it's hard to figure out where they'll fit long term. And that's even before the Sens 1st comes into play. If we get lucky and draft Cozens or Hughes, do we still need to trade for a 2C?

And, those truly contending teams built their team first, then started trading off spare parts for the pieces that would help them. Nashville could trade Seth Jones because they already had a great D. They could trade Girard and Kamanev because they already had those roles filled. We're still working on filling in the team, and aren't quite to the point where we know which parts are the spares.

I don't see anyone with the tool set to be a #2C on a contender outside of Kam and Bowers. Both of them have probably two to three years of experience needed to be able to produce at the level we need as well. Bowers is obvious, and we don't know how his offense will translate. Kam's offensive upside is also in question.

I like to use PLD as an example from the time he was drafted to the time he really was able to play a top six center role with consistency. He was drafted 3rd O/A. D + 2 is the best case IMO. Even with Hughes it's probably a year or two of experience that is needed. How long did it take MacK? Barkov and Monahan were able to do it sooner, but were still very inconsistent.

The thing is all of our internal options are a roll the dice scenario, and more so than even someone like Makar since that high end guy of the same caliber isn't already in the system like he is.

I would rather not waste two more years (after this one), and have it be a dice roll.

 

[FoxysExpensiveNYDigs]

They 6-0-1 over their last 7 games. 13/14 points.

But their "inconsistent" because it fits his agenda.

 

[Patagonia]

I lost some brain calls reading these pages...

I probably couldn't name 30 players I would trade the sens #1 pick for if I were them, and Zibby isn't in any top 30 NHL players list. (I didn't actually start naming players, so I have no idea how many actual players I wouldn't trade it for....)

The Avs first isn't enough unless the prospect coming back is a top prospect. The problem here is without Zibby, and the risk of losing UFA Hayes, we're going to be forced to either sign a vet through free agency, taking a big step in the wrong direction, or toss in Chytil who shouldn't be pushed in a #1C role right now. We have centers who are better as wingers and can't really fill the center position after losing Zibby, and possibly Hayes through trade of free agency. So the value of Zibanejad to us is pretty high.

I agrees with your assessment, but the AVs have no reason either in moving their picks especially the Sens selection.

AVs already have a strong nucleus of young talent and prospects. The draft will only add to the depth of their Farm system. Weakness continue to be 2C and RW. Zibby would be a great addition, but the 2019 Draft with 2 - 1sts could land a comparable or even better player to fill the areas of need. I can't see the NYR moving a player that is part of their rebuild, or the AVs making a big move when they're still a few years away from challenging for the Cup.

 

[Meeqs]

Zibby is a great player and he would be a good fit on the Avs, but you'll need to become realistic on what he is worth. NYR doesn't have anything on their roster that is worth the Ott 1st round pick. While there is still variance on where it will end up, until the position is final the team has to treat it as a top 5 pick.

It will likely be hard to find a trade that makes sense for both teams, as each team is looking for roughly the same things. It is possible that something arises where the Avs feel they have too many picks and prospects a deal could be had but I don't think they're really there yet.

Maybe something like a 1st rounder in the 20s + a prospect like Bowers + a roster player like Sven for Zibby and a mid tier asset could work out. Honestly though if the Ott pick ends up being a top 5 pick the Avs likely don't have a need for Zibby anymore even if he is good friends with Gabe. Other teams would be a better fit and NYR has others players they should be moving 1st and then reevaluating their needs

 

[Goulet17]

Zibby is a great player and he would be a good fit on the Avs, but you'll need to become realistic on what he is worth. NYR doesn't have anything on their roster that is worth the Ott 1st round pick. While there is still variance on where it will end up, until the position is final the team has to treat it as a top 5 pick.

It will likely be hard to find a trade that makes sense for both teams, as each team is looking for roughly the same things. It is possible that something arises where the Avs feel they have too many picks and prospects a deal could be had but I don't think they're really there yet.

Maybe something like a 1st rounder in the 20s + a prospect like Bowers + a roster player like Sven for Zibby and a mid tier asset could work out. Honestly though if the Ott pick ends up being a top 5 pick the Avs likely don't have a need for Zibby anymore even if he is good friends with Gabe. Other teams would be a better fit and NYR has others players they should be moving 1st and then reevaluating their needs

Why do the Rangers need to be realistic about Zibby's worth? They are not under any pressure to trade him at the moment that I can see, so Gorton could ask for the moon. It doesn't mean that the Avs would pay the high asking price either. It just points to the teams being unlikely trading partners if Zibby is the target IMO.

 

[Meeqs]

Why do the Rangers need to be realistic about Zibby's worth? They are not under any pressure to trade him at the moment that I can see, so Gorton could ask for the moon. It doesn't mean that the Avs would pay the high asking price either. It just points to the teams being unlikely trading partners if Zibby is the target IMO.

If you aren't being realistic about his worth than you aren't REALLY moving him. On these boards, proposals only work if we go under the assumption it is a serious offer, as other wise its just (the T word that we cant say) and the thread would be closed.

I could say I'd trade Nieto for Chytil but I'm not being very honest or serious about it.

I totally get a GM starting off at a high price or asking for a little bit more than they should probably get, but you still have to be somewhat reasonable. Asking for a top 5 pick isn't reasonable.

 

[IWantSakicAsMyGM]

I don't see anyone with the tool set to be a #2C on a contender outside of Kam and Bowers. Both of them have probably two to three years of experience needed to be able to produce at the level we need as well. Bowers is obvious, and we don't know how his offense will translate. Kam's offensive upside is also in question.

I like to use PLD as an example from the time he was drafted to the time he really was able to play a top six center role with consistency. He was drafted 3rd O/A. D + 2 is the best case IMO. Even with Hughes it's probably a year or two of experience that is needed. How long did it take MacK? Barkov and Monahan were able to do it sooner, but were still very inconsistent.

The thing is all of our internal options are a roll the dice scenario, and more so than even someone like Makar since that high end guy of the same caliber isn't already in the system like he is.

I would rather not waste two more years (after this one), and have it be a dice roll.

I disagree. I think JT Compher has the skills to be a ROR type 2C, if he could just stay healthy. He was 2nd in the NCAA in scoring as a junior, he's got some skills. I've also seen some flashes from Jost this year that make me wary of writing him off just yet. And, Kerfoot is currently on pace for 64 points this season, which would tie the career highs of 2Cs on contenders like Turris and Little, despite Kerfoot only playing 14 minutes per game. Maybe he doesn't have as complete a game yet, but he's still only a second year player. And that's even before you include Kamanev or Bowers in the conversation, or look at the 2019 draft.

I also disagree that 2 years where we probably make the playoffs and continue to improve as a team is a "waste".

 

[cgf]

Big free agent splash. Mark Stone or Artemi Panarin. One of those guys will make one of our 2c candidates look way better. Then next year we also have Cale Makar for the whole season and that year or next we have Ottawa's pick playing.

Stone or Panarin would be great...but neither of them would speed Jost up or make Kerf grow another 3 inches & 20 pounds. So unless Kamenev makes massive strides or the Ottawa pick is ready to fill that role with a year of seasoning at most, who’s filling the 2C spot?

That’s my issue. If we add a scoring line FA winger, that’s great, but that doesn’t transform Kerf into the 2C we need...even if his production is satisfactory. I’m willing to wait til the end of this season, but we should enter next season with all of the pieces we’ll need to really contend, in place.

Thus why I’m open to moving the Ottawa pick if it ends up on the back half of the top 10, our own pick, Timmins, Bowers, Kaut, or Kerfoot himself. If we can upgrade Kerf to a C with similar production & a strong two way game, then we’ll be golden even if we strike out in FA and end up having to wait for Podkolzin to come over or Kaut to breakthrough to knock Jimmothy off of that line.

 

[cgf]

I agrees with your assessment, but the AVs have no reason either in moving their picks especially the Sens selection.

AVs already have a strong nucleus of young talent and prospects. The draft will only add to the depth of their Farm system. Weakness continue to be 2C and RW. Zibby would be a great addition, but the 2019 Draft with 2 - 1sts could land a comparable or even better player to fill the areas of need. I can't see the NYR moving a player that is part of their rebuild, or the AVs making a big move when they're still a few years away from challenging for the Cup.

The avs will only be a few years away from challenging for the cup if they decide to sit on their hands and waste MacK’s prime

 

[cgf]

I think the difference here is that I don't know that I really believe that a 1b Center makes us a genuine contender this year. Nor do I think that Mack being 23 or Landy being 25 is a good reason to panic and try to go all in right now, because I think we're only probably a year or two away from contending without making any moves. That doesn't mean I think we won't be in the playoffs for the next couple years, just that I think we should actually win a playoff series before we start behaving like we're really Cup contenders. Baby steps.

I think it puts all the pieces in place for us to win a series or two & to go through the experiences needed to be genuine contenders next year.

And nowhere have I suggested to panic or give up the farm. Just that we be proactive about finding a solution by the end of the summer so that we don't enter next season shorthanded as well. MacK's contract creates some rush, but that isn't yet urgent...and unless we're getting Drae from him, the rush to take advantage of Chia before he's fired, isn't a major factor atm either.

 

[Kupo]

Zibby is a great player and he would be a good fit on the Avs, but you'll need to become realistic on what he is worth.

The Rangers, realistically, don’t want to trade Zibanajad.

Maybe something like a 1st rounder in the 20s + a prospect like Bowers + a roster player like Sven for Zibby and a mid tier asset could work out.

Maybe Not.

That offer is straight up ****ing trash. Embarrassingly bad proposal.

I don’t think you realistically understand the value of a 25 year old RH 1C signed @ 5.3m for the next 4 seasons.

Rangers have no desire to move him. Gorton has picked 5 times in the 1st round over the last two seasons. Zuccarello and Hayes can be traded for additional 1sts if/when Gorton shops them.

If you want a player a team doesn’t want to trade, then you’re not paying fair market value. You’re paying beyond that.

The Avs shouldn’t move the Sens pick. And without it they’re not going to sway Gorton into trading him. And as a Rangers fan I’m copacetic with that.

 

[cgf]

The Rangers, realistically, don’t want to trade Zibanajad.




Maybe Not.

That offer is straight up ****ing trash. Embarrassingly bad proposal.

I don’t think you realistically understand the value of a 25 year old RH 1C signed @ 5.3m for the next 4 seasons.

Rangers have no desire to move him. Gorton has picked 5 times in the 1st round over the last two seasons. Zuccarello and Hayes can be traded for additional 1sts if/when Gorton shops them.

If you want a player a team doesn’t want to trade, then you’re not paying fair market value. You’re paying beyond that.

The Avs shouldn’t move the Sens pick. And without it they’re not going to sway Gorton into trading him. And as a Rangers fan I’m copacetic with that.

Doesn't that 4 seasons include this one? Meaning that he's only signed to that great deal for 3 seasons after the current one...which begs the question of when you expect to start coming out of the first phase of your rebuild? If you're going to spend another 2 seasons after this one blooding in the youth & tanking before you seriously expect to start seeing that youth leading the team to success; then how much of that contract will actually be left by the time you're really trying to win and that cap-value actually matters for you?* And will Zibby still be young enough then? Is paying a 28- or 29-year-old Zibby as your kids start breaking through something you're looking forward to?

If Zibby is going to get moved before your youth leads you to make noise again, then the question turns to how his value changes between draft night 2019 and the summer of 2021, when he'd be extension-eligible with the team that trades for him then. In that question, some big factors would be the impact he can have on the development of your youth over those 2 extra seasons, how much he'll impact your draft picks in those 2 extra seasons, what his value will be with 1 year left vs after this season, whether you want to add those extra kids into the system this coming summer so that they line up more with your current kids or 2 years later so that they start to form the 2nd wave of your rebuild that bolsters the team around that Chytil / Buchnevich / Skjei / Andersson / Howden / etc. core.

And from the outside looking in, moving Zibby at the draft makes an awful lot of sense if you can get a strong return with pieces your FO particularly likes. And a #6-10 overall pick + an A (but not bluechip) RHD prospect, or an A (but not bluechip) RHD prospect + an A (but not bluechip) 2way-C prospect + a #16-20 overall pick; would seem like good returns whether at this year's draft or the 2021 edition.


*like MacK is signed to a steal, but if the avs just re-sign the guys we want to keep and sit on the remaining ~10M in cap space that would be left over after re-signing Rantanan, Zadorov, Kerfoot, Compher, Kamenev & Francouz; then we're not actually getting any benefit from that season of MacK's sweetheart deal and it doesn't matter that he's signed for half his value, ya know? I feel like most of Zibby's value-adding contract could be squandered in a similar fashion on these finally-rebuilding-rangers; where you'd only really get 1 (maybe 2) years out of that deal where it being under-priced actually added value to your team.

 

[IWantSakicAsMyGM]

I think it puts all the pieces in place for us to win a series or two & to go through the experiences needed to be genuine contenders next year.

And nowhere have I suggested to panic or give up the farm. Just that we be proactive about finding a solution by the end of the summer so that we don't enter next season shorthanded as well. MacK's contract creates some rush, but that isn't yet urgent...and unless we're getting Drae from him, the rush to take advantage of Chia before he's fired, isn't a major factor atm either.

And I think that almost any player that is definitely going to be an upgrade over what we currently have is either not going to be available, or will cost more than we should be spending at this point in the build. Therefore, making that kind of move would signal to me that Sakic is panicking and no longer believes in his own plan to build the team with youth and let them grow up together. Maybe we'll add a UFA like Panarin or Stone, but I'd be surprised if Sakic trades away a bunch of our youngsters any time soon.

 

[cgf]

And I think that almost any player that is definitely going to be an upgrade over what we currently have is either not going to be available, or will cost more than we should be spending at this point in the build. Therefore, making that kind of move would signal to me that Sakic is panicking and no longer believes in his own plan to build the team with youth and let them grow up together. Maybe we'll add a UFA like Panarin or Stone, but I'd be surprised if Sakic trades away a bunch of our youngsters any time soon.

I’ve said before if the move isn’t there right now then you do my make it right now...but that doesn’t mean Joe shouldn’t be talking to other GMs about potential moves for the future right now. A Zibby or ROR caliber guy should move over the summer and we’re in prime position to win that sweepstakes; so let Joe start laying the groundwork for that trade.


And you’re hyperbolizing massively. Moving two prospects and a pick, at most one of the young NHLers (Kerf) in place of one of the prospect; is in no way giving up on the youth. I think my craziest Drae proposal only ever moved 2 NHLers (Kerf & Barrie). I’m not saying trade every assets for win now pieces. I’m saying trade 2 or 3 premium futures for that 1 missing piece that fits our young core age- & timeline wise.

Last year, we were competitive against Nashville with EJ and Varly both out for the entire series and Hammond starting the final two games. We added Cole and Grubauer (plus Francouz) to try to address the things that held us back last year, and our youngsters got an off-season to continue prepare for the season. This year, we're still 5+ months away from finding out if this seemingly improved team is good enough to win a playoff series. And, until we find out, it's kind of hard to determine what changes will still need to be made to the roster. A lot can change in 5+ months, especially when it comes to young players who are still growing into their roles, there's no reason to get ahead of ourselves.

And, it's not that I don't want to spend anything, I just want to be a little more certain that we're spending on something we actually need, and not just what we appear to need right now. If we stay patient, and let the process of building through the draft actually work, I think we're going to be better served in the long run. Upgrading a position where we already have something that seems to be working doesn't really make sense to me.

I think that's fair, which is why I think this summer is "the most reasonable" timeline. I just think we could rip that window open this year if the right aggressive trade materializes. If it doesn't then we shouldn't force anything and whittle away our arsenal on rentals that don't solve anything. But I'd hope Joe is testing the waters, even if just to lay the groundwork for a summertime trade when we will have that information that is currently still up in the air. So that if something that makes sense in the summer, could be done now, we don't squander our chance to open that window early.

Young teams often actually arrive 1 year before they are "supposed to arrive". So when a team is as asset-/future-rich as ours & has the elite talent to contend, I think it's wiser to be aggressive in filling its final hole, rather than to wait around for the hole to solve itself. I'm just terrified of ending up having wasted our current strong future outlook like St. Louis did after they ascended post-EJ-trade. If a day comes where our top line is consuming almost 30M of the cap...and that day could very well be coming...I sure hope we've got at least 1 new banner in the rafters before then.

 

[Patagonia]

I’ve said before if the move isn’t there right now then you do my make it right now...but that doesn’t mean Joe shouldn’t be talking to other GMs about potential moves for the future right now. A Zibby or ROR caliber guy should move over the summer and we’re in prime position to win that sweepstakes; so let Joe start laying the groundwork for that trade.


And you’re hyperbolizing massively. Moving two prospects and a pick, or at most one of the young NHLers (Kerf); is in no way giving up the youth. I think my craziest Drae proposal only ever moved 2 NHLers (Kerf & Barrie). I’m not saying trade every assets for win now pieces. I’m saying trade 2 or 3 premium assets for that 1 missing piece that fits our young core age- & timeline wise.

Sending a possibly franchise high pick for Zibby to shorten the the competitiveness of the team by 1-2 years? I rather they move Barrie which is highly likely to be gone.

Keep the picks and continue with the rebuild.

 

[cgf]

Sending a possibly franchise high pick for Zibby to shorten the the competitiveness of the team by 1-2 years? I rather they move Barrie which is highly likely to be gone.

Keep the picks and continue with the rebuild.

Please stop putting words in my mouth.

If you'd read this thread, I've repeatedly stated that the Ottawa pick should only be put on the table for Zibby if after the lottery it's not top 4 or 5...meaning the likelihood of whoever is picked with it becoming an NHL difference maker before their draft+3 season will be very low.

I'm suggesting we make sure that we actually have a window. So if anything we'd be lengthening it by opening our window earlier, if we were to assume that the window will open on its own eventually if we just wait until MacK is out of his scoring prime...


...and I'm not even gunna touch that Barrie comment. I am the last person on HF to shit on anyone else's unrealistic trade dreams *waives at Oilers fans with a cheeky grin*

 

[flyfysher]

Why do the Rangers need to be realistic about Zibby's worth? They are not under any pressure to trade him at the moment that I can see, so Gorton could ask for the moon. It doesn't mean that the Avs would pay the high asking price either. It just points to the teams being unlikely trading partners if Zibby is the target IMO.

The Rangers don't need to be realistic about Zibby's worth. The Avs do and he's not worth OTT 1OA draft pick at this point.

 

[Nopuckluck]

Dis

The Rangers don't need to be realistic about Zibby's worth. The Avs do and he's not worth OTT 1OA draft pick at this point.

Disagree. McKinnon needs another center. Don’t waste his window

 

[flyfysher]

Dis

Disagree. McKinnon needs another center. Don’t waste his window

The Avs aren't wasting MacKinnon's window. I'm fine with rolling along with Kerfoot or Jost or Kamenev and go with the draft. But the OTT 1OA? No way. You'd be lucky to pry the Avs 1OA and a prospect. Not every Avs fan is as desperate for Zibanejad as a 2nd line center as you might think. But given the Rags' situation, I totally get why you're desperate for OTT 1OA pick. Jump start the Rags' rebuild. I'm doing you a favor and telling you to keep Zibanejad.

 

[Nopuckluck]

The Avs aren't wasting MacKinnon's window. I'm fine with rolling along with Kerfoot or Jost or Kamenev and go with the draft. But the OTT 1OA? No way. You'd be lucky to pry the Avs 1OA and a prospect. Not every Avs fan is as desperate for Zibanejad as a 2nd line center as you might think. But given the Rags' situation, I totally get why you're desperate for OTT 1OA pick. Jump start the Rags' rebuild. I'm doing you a favor and telling you to keep Zibanejad.

As a fellow trout fly fisherman Your comment is fair.

 

[Patagonia]

Dis

Disagree. McKinnon needs another center. Don’t waste his window

AVs wasting Macks window? The team is currently 7th overall and tied for second in the toughest division in the league. Not only are they among the youngest team in the league, but own a few high end prospects expecting to join the team in the next few years.

So not only are the AVs a better NHL team than the NYR, but their Farm system is superior as well. They're likely to keep both their 1st round picks to deepen their depth at Forward and move Barrie to usher in their high end DMen prospects.

Zibby would be a nice add, but unlikely the AVs are willing to offer anything close to a 1st or their top prospects.

 

[Hasbro]

Dis

Disagree. McKinnon needs another center. Don’t waste his window

They'll do that in June.

 

[flyfysher]

As a fellow trout fly fisherman Your comment is fair.

I'm lucky to live 1/2 hour from Rocky Mountain National Park and fly fish there a lot.

 

[flyfysher]

AVs wasting Macks window? The team is currently 7th overall and tied for second in the toughest division in the league. Not only are they among the youngest team in the league, but own a few high end prospects expecting to join the team in the next few years.

So not only are the AVs a better NHL team than the NYR, but their Farm system is superior as well. They're likely to keep both their 1st round picks to deepen their depth at Forward and move Barrie to usher in their high end DMen prospects.

Zibby would be a nice add, but unlikely the AVs are willing to offer anything close to a 1st or their top prospects.

x2. I wrote the other day on the Avs forum that I see the Avs seriously contending for SC starting within 2-3 years. Some other Avs fans want to contend tomorrow. It could happen with luck (as always). But I think that impatience has spurred some Avs posters to call for rearranging the 2nd line by acquiring other players and pointing out issues with Zadorov. I think it's premature on both counts (Kerfoot and Jost's ability to anchor the second line) and Zadorov's effectiveness and ability to be a top 4 Dman. The team is only a couple of years removed from a historic tire fire. It's impressive that they have a serviceable D and one of top first lines in the NHL. And they have some very nice prospects. Still, it's a little early in the season to hit the panic button. Zibs is a very good player but the Avs are already nicely set up. Besides, the player that much of the Avs base has coveted is actually Stone from the Sens.

If this discussion has done anything, it's that I'm more likely to join Sea Eagles (Avs poster) in his assessment that someone like Kerfoot is part of the "core." Value wise, it'd be a huge waste to give up the OTT 1OA at this point. I want to try out Compher, Kerfoot and Jost before even considering trading away assets. Rangers fans may or may not have seen the one time that line played together against the Stars last night but they were absolutely dominant.

 

[cgf]

x2. I wrote the other day on the Avs forum that I see the Avs seriously contending for SC starting within 2-3 years. Some other Avs fans want to contend tomorrow. It could happen with luck (as always). But I think that impatience has spurred some Avs posters to call for rearranging the 2nd line by acquiring other players and pointing out issues with Zadorov. I think it's premature on both counts (Kerfoot and Jost's ability to anchor the second line) and Zadorov's effectiveness and ability to be a top 4 Dman. The team is only a couple of years removed from a historic tire fire. It's impressive that they have a serviceable D and one of top first lines in the NHL. And they have some very nice prospects. Still, it's a little early in the season to hit the panic button. Zibs is a very good player but the Avs are already nicely set up. Besides, the player that much of the Avs base has coveted is actually Stone from the Sens.

If this discussion has done anything, it's that I'm more likely to join Sea Eagles (Avs poster) in his assessment that someone like Kerfoot is part of the "core." Value wise, it'd be a huge waste to give up the OTT 1OA at this point. I want to try out Compher, Kerfoot and Jost before even considering trading away assets. Rangers fans may or may not have seen the one time that line played together against the Stars last night but they were absolutely dominant.

"Patience" is a great thing until you end up the Blues.