Rumor: Zetterberg’s contract to Tampa

[kliq]

Its the offseason so I am not discouraging any topics, but Stamkos? Really? And for Raymond? This is the type of move I would anticipate from Holland's perpetual mediocrity regime.

Dude is over 30 and eats 8.5 cap, and if healthy will win us just enough games to screw our draft position but not be a competitor, and walks as UFA in 2023-24. There is absolutely zero chance I would trade Raymond for that. Not giving up Raymond's potential over a likely 10-20 year career and ELC and RFA protection.

Really? I think even the loudest of the anti Holland crowd would balk at this one. I can't ever remember Holland trading a blue chip prospect in all the years he was here. Young middle tier talent? Sure. Never guys at Raymond's level.

 

[newfy]

You're going to get soooooo blasted for trading for a guy that's over 30 and likely going to die of old age in the next couple years.

The key to acceptable team building is only adding impact players all at once when all your prospects perfectly peak at the same time.

Trading a top 3 pick for Stamkos abboslutely deserves to get blasted given where this team is right now. Why would anyone consider making that move?

 

[MBH]

Really? I think even the loudest of the anti Holland crowd would balk at this one. I can't ever remember Holland trading a blue chip prospect in all the years he was here. Young middle tier talent? Sure. Never guys at Raymond's level.

Maybe not.

Jarnkrok wasn't at Raymond's level (at least in terms of prestige - though production might be another story)

Draft season
Jarnkrok 33 games 4-6-10
Raymond 33 games 4-6-10
D+ 1 Season
Jarnkrok 49 games 11-16-27
Raymond 22 games 5-7-12​

But we traded away Raymond, Eaves and a 2nd for David f***ing Legwand.
A UFA 34-year-old playing for a contract who could muster up 10-30-40 through 60 games...
Not quite Stamkos (30 years old signed for 4 Years: 57 games 29-37-66)

There's a narrative out there that Legwand, who scored 11 points in 21 games in Detroit, singlehandedly made sure Detroit made the playoffs (Before he went 0-0-0 in a five game playoff loss).

Would Holland, if he were in Detroit, make the Stamkos for a first deal?
Let's assume Stamkos would even accept it.
Would Holland do it, given the shape of the Red Wings?
He just might.

And truth be told, I think the Stamkos deal makes more sense than the Legwand deal.
And I'm against the Stamkos proposal.

 

[Bench]

Why would anyone consider making that move?

 

[kliq]

Maybe not.

Jarnkrok wasn't at Raymond's level (at least in terms of prestige - though production might be another story)

Draft season
Jarnkrok 33 games 4-6-10
Raymond 33 games 4-6-10
D+ 1 Season
Jarnkrok 49 games 11-16-27
Raymond 22 games 5-7-12​

But we traded away Raymond, Eaves and a 2nd for David f***ing Legwand.
A UFA 34-year-old playing for a contract who could muster up 10-30-40 through 60 games...
Not quite Stamkos (30 years old signed for 4 Years: 57 games 29-37-66)

There's a narrative out there that Legwand, who scored 11 points in 21 games in Detroit, singlehandedly made sure Detroit made the playoffs (Before he went 0-0-0 in a five game playoff loss).

Would Holland, if he were in Detroit, make the Stamkos for a first deal?
Let's assume Stamkos would even accept it.
Would Holland do it, given the shape of the Red Wings?
He just might.

And truth be told, I think the Stamkos deal makes more sense than the Legwand deal.
And I'm against the Stamkos proposal.

I'm not going to touch the Jarnkrok deal, I am crystal clear what your thoughts on that topic are. No need to rehash something that has been debated and discussed to death.

Regardless of what anyone thinks of the Jarnkrok trade (and I'm not defending it), he was not thought of in the same light as Raymond. We're talking a top 10 pick JUST drafted this year vs a top 60 pick traded 4 years later. We're also talking Holland with the directive of keeping the streak alive/contending vs a clear rebuild that has been publicly given the green light my ownership. Once the streak ended and Mr. I passed away, none of Hollands move hinted towards giving up young potentially elite level talentS for vets.

 

[MBH]

I'm not going to touch the Jarnkrok deal, I am crystal clear what your thoughts on that are on that topic. No need to rehash something that has been debated and discussed to death.

Regardless of what anyone thinks of the Jarnkrok trade (and I'm not defending it), he was not thought of in the same light as Raymond. We're talking a top 10 pick JUST drafted this year vs a top 60 pick traded 4 years later. We're also talking Holland with the directive of keeping the streak alive/contending vs a clear rebuild. Once the streak ended none of Hollands move hinted towards giving up young talent for vets.

Myth that keeps gathering steam. And truly, it's not even a believable myth,

I listened to Holland speak openly and candidly about the playoffs and rebuild.
Clearly, he thought a hard rebuild was a bad move.
And if it was Holland just acting on the Ilitches wishes... man, they kicked him upstairs and hired a guy who immediately pledged to rebuild and asked for patience.

 

[kliq]

Myth that keeps gathering steam. And truly, it's not even a believable myth,

I listened to Holland speak openly and candidly about the playoffs and rebuild.
Clearly, he thought a hard rebuild was a bad move.
And if it was Holland just acting on the Ilitches wishes... man, they kicked him upstairs and hired a guy who immediately pledged to rebuild and asked for patience.

Show me one single quote or indication that Mike Illitch wanted to rebuild. Call it a myth all you want, but GM's do not have say on direction of a team over ownership, the idea that they do is laughable. Ask Dave Dombrowski how Illitch reacted to the proposed Tigers re-build. Look, if you want to blame Holland for everything, go ahead, I honestly dont care.

 

[The Zetterberg Era]

Myth that keeps gathering steam. And truly, it's not even a believable myth,

I listened to Holland speak openly and candidly about the playoffs and rebuild.
Clearly, he thought a hard rebuild was a bad move.
And if it was Holland just acting on the Ilitches wishes... man, they kicked him upstairs and hired a guy who immediately pledged to rebuild and asked for patience.

Jimmy Devellano has said on record he and Holland told the Ilitch's to rebuild after the first round loss to Boston. But you keep talking about myths...

He said they were brutally tough and you have to ideally figure out ways to shorten them as the can be a decade long. He did indeed act very differently as soon as they missed the playoffs and Chris Ilitch began pushing for rebuilds of both franchises.

 

[kliq]

Jimmy Devellano has said on record he and Holland told the Ilitch's to rebuild after the first round loss to Boston.

You could present an audio recording of Mike Illitch flat out saying he said no to a re-build and it wouldnt change a thing in the minds of some.

 

[Gniwder]

I was thinking Johnson may end up in Seattle, whether or not he makes a stop in Detroit. He's from Washington State and could be the (marketable) leader of the team. It would be an interesting opportunity for him, and a reason to waive if Yzerman will facilitate the "gap year" neccessary by taking futures. Inaugural Captain of a franchise, that's a pretty rare opportunity.

Most people here are hoping for the other TJ, Oshie from Everett, which is heck of a lot closer Seattle. If the Caps make him available, he'll be captain for sure.

Season tickets are already sold out, so marketing isn't really an issue, but I agree TJ will somehow wind up in Seattle.

 

[Henkka]

Jimmy Devellano has said on record he and Holland told the Ilitch's to rebuild after the first round loss to Boston. But you keep talking about myths...

He said they were brutally tough and you have to ideally figure out ways to shorten them as the can be a decade long. He did indeed act very differently as soon as they missed the playoffs and Chris Ilitch began pushing for rebuilds of both franchises.

Mike Ilitch died at February 10th 2017.

Holland acts starting 2 weeks after that:
- Jurco for 3rd (from CHI)
- Smith for 2nd+3rd (from NYR)
- Vanek for 3rd + McIlrath (from FLO)
- Ott for 6th (from MTL)
- Sheahan + 5th for 3rd + Wilson (later Wilson for 5th from BUF)
- Mrazek for 3rd+4th (from PHI)
- Tatar for 1st+2nd+3rd (from VGK)
- Russo for 7th
- Jensen + 5th for 2nd + Bowey
- Nyquist for 2nd+3rd (from SJS)

These were Ken Holland trades from February 24th 2017 to February 25th 2019. Players out and +10 picks in.

His acts as a GM were turned from a switch after the chairman was changed.

 

[Ghost of Ethan Hunt]

Mike Ilitch died at February 10th 2017.

Holland acts starting 2 weeks after that:
- Jurco for 3rd (from CHI)
- Smith for 2nd+3rd (from NYR)
- Vanek for 3rd + McIlrath (from FLO)
- Ott for 6th (from MTL)
- Sheahan + 5th for 3rd + Wilson (later Wilson for 5th from BUF)
- Mrazek for 3rd+4th (from CAR)
- Tatar for 1st+2nd+3rd (from VGK)
- Russo for 7th
- Jensen + 5th for 2nd + Bowey
- Nyquist for 2nd+3rd (from SJS)

These were Ken Holland trades from February 24th 2017 to February 25th 2019. Players out and +10 picks in.

His acts as a GM were turned from a switch after the chairman was changed.

...and their respective Returns:

Petruzzelli
Gallant + Berggren
Kasper Kotkansalo
Ott --> 6th->5th->Buf
Jesper Eliasson
Seth Barton
Joe Veleno + **? (2nd in '19 draft) + 3rd '21 draft (Tatar trade)
Russo cond. not met=zilch return
Cross Hanas
Albert Johansson + Eemil Viro + Alex Cotton. (Nyquist trade was a beauty)

**Tatar trade, per HockeyDB doesn't list our return for the 2nd, only "round 2 pick in the 2019 draft (Samuel Fagemo)", but doesn't say how VGK reacquired the 2nd (from DRW) & moved it to LA so they could draft Sam.

 

[jaster]

...and their respective Returns:

Petruzzelli
Gallant + Berggren
Kasper Kotkansalo
Ott --> 6th->5th->Buf
Jesper Eliasson
Seth Barton
Joe Veleno + **? (2nd in '19 draft) + 3rd '21 draft (Tatar trade)
Russo cond. not met=zilch return
Cross Hanas
Albert Johansson + Eemil Viro + Alex Cotton. (Nyquist trade was a beauty)

**Tatar trade, per HockeyDB doesn't list our return for the 2nd, only "round 2 pick in the 2019 draft (Samuel Fagemo)", but doesn't say how VGK reacquired the 2nd (from DRW) & moved it to LA so they could draft Sam.

I believe that is an error on the part of HockeyDB. I think they mixed up LV's 2nd rounders that year. According to CapFriendly, which is usually more accurate, that 2nd round pick was Robert Mastrosimone.

 

[Ghost of Ethan Hunt]

I believe that is an error on the part of HockeyDB. I think they mixed up LV's 2nd rounders that year. According to CapFriendly, which is usually more accurate, that 2nd round pick was Robert Mastrosimone.

thanks, I couldn't remember who it was. I've noticed Hockeydb does that quite a bit actually, but I praise them for doing it, good site overall, usually my 1st Go To.

 

[Retire91]

Mike Ilitch died at February 10th 2017.

Holland acts starting 2 weeks after that:
- Jurco for 3rd (from CHI)
- Smith for 2nd+3rd (from NYR)
- Vanek for 3rd + McIlrath (from FLO)
- Ott for 6th (from MTL)
- Sheahan + 5th for 3rd + Wilson (later Wilson for 5th from BUF)
- Mrazek for 3rd+4th (from PHI)
- Tatar for 1st+2nd+3rd (from VGK)
- Russo for 7th
- Jensen + 5th for 2nd + Bowey
- Nyquist for 2nd+3rd (from SJS)

These were Ken Holland trades from February 24th 2017 to February 25th 2019. Players out and +10 picks in.

His acts as a GM were turned from a switch after the chairman was changed.

Even in that context his trades and signings were still terrible, how many times did he re-sign Cleary. a 19OA pick for Quincey, 16 games of Legwand, Weiss, Abdelkater's contract, Neilsen. A track record of epic fail. 'Build me a team that will get destroyed in the first round' is a pretty low bar to hit for an NHL GM and he could have done so without making the team one of the worst the NHL has ever seen.

 

[DInTheB]

 

[jkutswings]

Or this is just smoke to get teams like Detroit to lower their asking price. We'll see.

 

[DInTheB]

 

[Gniwder]

LOL, LTIR solves the issues as predicted. Maybe they put both Stamkos and Kuch on LTIR to start the season, that would solve all of their cap issues, and they can both come back as soon as they are eligible (24 days/10 games).

 

[kliq]

Even in that context his trades and signings were still terrible, how many times did he re-sign Cleary. a 19OA pick for Quincey, 16 games of Legwand, Weiss, Abdelkater's contract, Neilsen. A track record of epic fail. 'Build me a team that will get destroyed in the first round' is a pretty low bar to hit for an NHL GM and he could have done so without making the team one of the worst the NHL has ever seen.

There is no need to criticize those moves in this thread because nobody is defending those particular moves.

It’s crystal clear that Holland was given a certain direction, this is why I can’t blame Holland for going in the direction he was told to go in. Now, when it comes to the individual moves while going in that direction, that’s a different story. Blame away.

The entire context here however is based on your post suggesting Holland would trade Raymond for Stamkos, which based on on the moves @Henkka laid out never would have happened after the death of Mike Illitch/the streak ending. Every move he made from that point on did not go against the re-build.

Trading a core piece for a bandaid to make them mediocre again is not something he ever came close to doing.

 

[The Zetterberg Era]

Even in that context his trades and signings were still terrible, how many times did he re-sign Cleary. a 19OA pick for Quincey, 16 games of Legwand, Weiss, Abdelkater's contract, Neilsen. A track record of epic fail. 'Build me a team that will get destroyed in the first round' is a pretty low bar to hit for an NHL GM and he could have done so without making the team one of the worst the NHL has ever seen.

You're quoting a post that says since February 10th, 2017 with moves that all proceeded that date... Which is just completely ignoring the entire point of the post, epic fail indeed.

Really? I think even the loudest of the anti Holland crowd would balk at this one. I can't ever remember Holland trading a blue chip prospect in all the years he was here. Young middle tier talent? Sure. Never guys at Raymond's level.

He never did, I think that is a part of why teams started being harder on us for picks. He traded several guys in the late 90s and early 2000s in terms of prospects but the Wings seemed to understand their prospect pool pretty well.

It is also a rather odd criticism considering most of his detractors and really one of their best points was that Holland slow played everyone to the point where they didn't have the value if we had taken that chance. He didn't have the Raymond level prospect often because we were simply too good to be near there for a long time. But I disagree with a lot of the takeaways from his regime while he was here.

Yzerman is more prone to trade a blue-chipper than Holland. Which could be good, but he turned the page on his first round selections in Tampa a lot faster if that is what we are actually worried about. I think we can benefit from that, but we will have to see how it plays out in the future. Those kind of trades worry you when they are happening though, but I think we will see one at some point in the next year or two in terms of a big move.

I think Holland's biggest problem in a lot of ways was he approached the cap as a long-term deal for savings construct with a lot of veterans. He had several guys that cheated father time throughout his tenure, but a few of these guys really couldn't pull it off and the latest star one from the group that did play into his 40s got homesick and was the one actually on shorter deals. But he went to much term we know that, Yzerman did it a few times in Tampa, but given how he is operating albeit with rebuilding approved since the moment he came on I am not as worried about this happening again.

 

[Henkka]

Or this is just smoke to get teams like Detroit to lower their asking price. We'll see.

Any short-term injuries for Kucherov or Stamkos won't clear Tampa's problems. Players have to come back at some point and same trades have to be made.

 

[Retire91]

There is no need to criticize those moves in this thread because nobody is defending those particular moves.

It’s crystal clear that Holland was given a certain direction, this is why I can’t blame Holland for going in the direction he was told to go in. Now, when it comes to the individual moves while going in that direction, that’s a different story. Blame away.

The entire context here however is based on your post suggesting Holland would trade Raymond for Stamkos, which based on on the moves @Henkka laid out never would have happened after the death of Mike Illitch/the streak ending. Every move he made from that point on did not go against the re-build.

Trading a core piece for a bandaid to make them mediocre again is not something he ever came close to doing.

I think we've had a misunderstanding. Raymond for Stamkos reminded me of Holland's good old days becuase it is the kind of move you make to be okay now while sacrificing your chance to have an actual window in the future. But Holland also doesn't do that deal, that is how bad it is.

 

[Retire91]

You're quoting a post that says since February 10th, 2017 with moves that all proceeded that date... Which is just completely ignoring the entire point of the post, epic fail indeed.



He never did, I think that is a part of why teams started being harder on us for picks. He traded several guys in the late 90s and early 2000s in terms of prospects but the Wings seemed to understand their prospect pool pretty well.

It is also a rather odd criticism considering most of his detractors and really one of their best points was that Holland slow played everyone to the point where they didn't have the value if we had taken that chance. He didn't have the Raymond level prospect often because we were simply too good to be near there for a long time. But I disagree with a lot of the takeaways from his regime while he was here.

Yzerman is more prone to trade a blue-chipper than Holland. Which could be good, but he turned the page on his first round selections in Tampa a lot faster if that is what we are actually worried about. I think we can benefit from that, but we will have to see how it plays out in the future. Those kind of trades worry you when they are happening though, but I think we will see one at some point in the next year or two in terms of a big move.

I think Holland's biggest problem in a lot of ways was he approached the cap as a long-term deal for savings construct with a lot of veterans. He had several guys that cheated father time throughout his tenure, but a few of these guys really couldn't pull it off and the latest star one from the group that did play into his 40s got homesick and was the one actually on shorter deals. But he went to much term we know that, Yzerman did it a few times in Tampa, but given how he is operating albeit with rebuilding approved since the moment he came on I am not as worried about this happening again.

It wasn't really in the context of what I was saying. Even "if" Holland was constrained to keep the streak alive he still did a below average job. Although he, like any NHL GM, had a few good picks singings over the years on a whole his performance was pretty terrible. The back end of the wings streak was carried by Lidstrom and then Daytsuk Zetterberg and finally just Daytsuk. Those are the kind of players that can take you to the playoffs singlehandedly. You don't need to stack veteran mediocrity to make it happen. The below average patchwork done created a deadzone of talent which is what we are making up for now.

He did pull off some pick building in the last year and thankfully hit a 3-4 homeruns in the draft so the team was not a complete dumpster fire. But for a hall of fame GM I would give 2010 - 2018 a C- / D.

 

[Gniwder]

Any short-term injuries for Kucherov or Stamkos won't clear Tampa's problems. Players have to come back at some point and same trades have to be made.

Kuch and Stamkos have a combined cap hit of $18M, if they both miss 18 games out of 56, it clears $5.8M of cap space. If they miss half the season (28 games), then it clears $9M.

So yes, it does if they both miss about 5 - 6 weeks. If they miss significantly more than that, they would actually have space for a TDL acquisition.