Zadina vs. Hughes

[MBH]

For all the good it does... I'm pissed that we took

Landon Ferraro over Ryan O'Reilly
Tomas Jurco, Xaiver Ouellet, and Ryan Sproul over Nikita Kucherov
Givani Smith over Carter Hart
Tom McCollum over Roman Josi

We made the pick we made. Zadina needs to be given a chance and time to grow. He's got to be afforded it. Also, WHEN, not if, Quinn Hughes hits a wall, this post better be brought back up.

Were you pissed about those picks on draft day? I doubt it.
I mean, it's kind of silly to be pissed about draft picks.
But unless you had a better idea on draft day (cough Kuznetsov over Sheahan), what leg do you have to stand on?

 

[MBH]

If we’re playing the coulda woulda shoulda game I’m more bothered about passing on Dobson than hughes.

That was my guy, too.
But i just wanted one of those 4 (Dobson/Hughes/Bouchard/Boquist) over a winger. Period.

 

[2xJack]

Your opinion is clear and I don't intend to try to change it, but for you to suggest that Hirose is going to impede Zadina from cracking into the NHL top 6 discussion is pretty shocking. At this point I would take Zadina in any capacity on the Red Wings over Hirose without a second thought. I would prefer if Athanasiou was traded at this point. There is one winger in the organization who appears to be trending towards being an irreplaceable fixture in the top 6, and that is Mantha.

The team doesn't have enough talent to be concerned with how players fit....they just need talent in bunches.

I find it shocking you would take Zadina over Hirose on the roster right now. Going for the first overall pick? Hirose is an offensive creator. He has things like vision and anticipation in spades. Zadina would get burned shift after shift, and his already low confidence would never recover. There is no measurable way in which that substitution is an upgrade.

So, you think Yzerman just throws players on the roster and sees what sticks? There's no plan for what slots or roles players will fill? I think there's a lot that goes into every singe decision. Yeah, the team is bad and needs talent in the worst way. They still have to develop young players and ice a functional lineup.

 

[MBH]

Your opinion is clear and I don't intend to try to change it, but for you to suggest that Hirose is going to impede Zadina from cracking into the NHL top 6 discussion is pretty shocking. At this point I would take Zadina in any capacity on the Red Wings over Hirose without a second thought. I would prefer if Athanasiou was traded at this point. There is one winger in the organization who appears to be trending towards being an irreplaceable fixture in the top 6, and that is Mantha.

The team doesn't have enough talent to be concerned with how players fit....they just need talent in bunches.

It's crazy to me that people want to trade Athanasiou - who scored 30 playing with dogshit last year... while somehow thinking Zadina is just automatically going to replace that.

 

[Goalie guy]

It's crazy to me that people want to trade Athanasiou - who scored 30 playing with dog**** last year... while somehow thinking Zadina is just automatically going to replace that.

Hes doing nothing in his 2nd year in the A I don't get it either.

 

[Lil Sebastian Cossa]

So criticism is just to slag management? That's a defensive take.

Anyway, the point of comparing Hughes with Zadina is pretty easy. Both in the same draft class. The god damn camera was on Hughes right up until will picked Zadina for crying out loud. And now Zadina is doing poor to OK in the AHL and Hughes seems to be playing well in the NHL despite playing a position that tends to develop later.

Are you trying to say we shouldn't debate Hughes vs Zadina until 2028 or something?

We're sports fans. We take snapshots in time and debate ****. If we didn't what's the point of discussion boards?
We should all just retire to the hall of fame board and wait for Zadina and Hughes to retire.

The only thing that will cure the criticism you see as nothing but a slag is for Zadina to develop. Until then slag away.

Yeah, I guess you're right on that (about the snapshot in time). I guess I'm just trying to be patient on one kid who isn't 20 yet vs one who just turned 20 not long ago. Not that we can't compare... but it just seems VERY early to say "Zadina's garbage and won't amount to anything and Hughes is a bonafide superstar".

It is an overreaction to think Zadina sucks and is irredeemable. It is an overreaction to think that Quinn Hughes is destined for the Hall of Fame. I know that's part of discussion boards to be as hyperbolic as possible, but it should be just as reasonable a take to say "Hey, it's WAY too early on either of this guys to be saying anything of any conviction" as it is to say "as of 10/24/2019, Quinn Hughes is a much better NHL player than Filip Zadina".

Doubt that is a when. He has already displaced Edler from their top PP unit and is a total stud. It isn't really surprising Hughes has elite abilities.

I guess I mean when Hughes goes a couple game stretch in February where he looks really bad (because he's 20 and young players have bad games or bad strings of games).

 

[raymond23]

Muting this thread because it’s depressing lol

 

[SirloinUB]

That was my guy, too.
But i just wanted one of those 4 (Dobson/Hughes/Bouchard/Boquist) over a winger. Period.

Oh man, moving forward with Dobson, Seider and Hronek on the right side + cholowski could have set us up to have an elite D core for years to come. Of course with Dobson in the fold maybe we don't grab seider but it is fun to fantasize about anyway.

Setting aside the philosophical debate about C vs W vs D and drafting for need vs (perceived) BPA, I still have a lot of faith in Zadina to become an impact player. In my opinion he has immense skill but suffers from trying to do too much, forcing plays and putting a ton of pressure on himself. In many ways he reminds me of a young, more skilled tatar. Remember TT joined the AHL at the same age and needed a year under his belt before he really started putting up numbers. In fact, there rookie AHL seasons were statistically identical, with Zadina having a slight points/game edge.

As young player TT had many of the same problems in his game that we are currently seeing in Zadina. He forced plays, made some bad turnovers, lacked explosiveness in his skating, was soft, knocked off the puck easily and didn’t use his linemates effectively. With practice, game experience and maturity he overcame those weaknesses and has blossomed into a 50-60 point guy. If the wings are as patient with Zadina as they were with Tatar we could be in line for a substantial reward for years to come.

 

[Lil Sebastian Cossa]

Were you pissed about those picks on draft day? I doubt it.
I mean, it's kind of silly to be pissed about draft picks.
But unless you had a better idea on draft day (cough Kuznetsov over Sheahan), what leg do you have to stand on?

That's what I'm saying.

It is silly to complain about us taking Zadina over Hughes if it's silly for us to wring our hands over not getting Kucherov with 3 seconds or Carter Hart as a stud goalie prospect over a guy who might possibly get a cup of coffee in five years.

That's my point about complaining and criticizing Zadina over Hughes. Zadina, by all accounts, looked like the pick at #6. There was very very little to be dissuaded by. The fact that Hughes has come out like a house on fire in the NHL and Zadina is adjusting (struggling is probably more accurate) in the AHL does not make the pick right or wrong. The Wings weighed all the variables and made Zadina as the choice. By all accounts, it made sense, as Zadina was rated in the top 3 by so many of the scouts and "smart hockey people".

I certainly wasn't pissed about Zadina over Hughes on draft day (I would have loved Hughes as he was a U-M boy and I loved his game) so I'm not pissed about it now. I know that Zadina's not dog**** and worthless after 9 NHL games though.

 

[The Zetterberg Era]

Yeah, I guess you're right on that (about the snapshot in time). I guess I'm just trying to be patient on one kid who isn't 20 yet vs one who just turned 20 not long ago. Not that we can't compare... but it just seems VERY early to say "Zadina's garbage and won't amount to anything and Hughes is a bonafide superstar".

It is an overreaction to think Zadina sucks and is irredeemable. It is an overreaction to think that Quinn Hughes is destined for the Hall of Fame. I know that's part of discussion boards to be as hyperbolic as possible, but it should be just as reasonable a take to say "Hey, it's WAY too early on either of this guys to be saying anything of any conviction" as it is to say "as of 10/24/2019, Quinn Hughes is a much better NHL player than Filip Zadina".



I guess I mean when Hughes goes a couple game stretch in February where he looks really bad (because he's 20 and young players have bad games or bad strings of games).

I have not abandoned Zadina. Just had Hughes at #3 On my board and I don't think he is going to have a lot of low moments. I believe in his talent and think he will be in that top 20 dman conversation in a hurry. He is so hard to check in all three zones and he uses his speed and gaps defensively extremely well.

 

[Hen Kolland]

It's crazy to me that people want to trade Athanasiou - who scored 30 playing with dog**** last year... while somehow thinking Zadina is just automatically going to replace that.

It’s not that I think he can be replaced easily, it’s that I think it’s best for both sides to part ways. If AA wants to maximize his value, he would be best served leaving. If the Wings want to maximize his value, it would be done cutting bait and getting future assets rather than locking him into a contract that could end up being a negative value to the team if they struggle to give him the support he needs.

Also, when do you think the “30 goal man” will score a goal this year? Will he score anything close to 30 goals this year? Will he even make it to 30 points this year? Some time anomalies happen, and I’m not excited by the idea of locking AA into a deal where he makes 5-6+ million per year based on the hope that I can give him the tools to live up to the deal.

 

[GreatGordie9]

Don't forget folks Zadina is still only 19 years old give this kid a break!!!!!!!!

 

[ricky0034]

The thread is about Zadina vs Hughes though, and to be completely honest, there isn't even an argument to be made for Zadina at this point. Does that mean he is a bust? No. Does it mean he won't figure it out? No. But at this point, it's not close.

I don't think anyone is fully writing him off yet, (maybe one or 2 posters), but people have every right to be critical. People also have every right to question his game, and be worried. He isn't scoring goals, and that's what he self-proclaimed himself as. I think he needs to change his attitude a bit, and I honestly think he needs to up his compete level and start working harder. His talent got him drafted to the NHL, but talent alone isn't good enough to actually make the league and stick. You can ask guys like Filatov and Yakupov how they did with their natural abilities.

Zadina has time to figure it out, but people are allowed to be critical, and are allowed to say that they expected more from him so far. I still hope he makes it, but I've lowered my expectations drastically. After we drafted him, I was hoping he would be a Pastrnak/Kucherov, and at this point it looks like he may be more of a Tatar type of player then a first line sniper. It would be nice if he gained some confidence, and actually produced though, because seeing zeros every game can't be good for his confidence.

Kucherov didn't hit the NHL at all until his D+3 and even that year he split time between the AHL and NHL and only put up 18 points in 52 NHL games

just saying

 

[vladdy16]

Hughes is one of my new favorite players. Would love to have him, Hronek, Cholowski and Seider as a top 4.

If you are into amateur scouting, and saw Hughes for what he was back then, good for you, that's well done. It was probably a mistake for us to pass up on him.

None of that reflects on Zadina, and this is more of a trivia question than a hockey one.

 

[DetroitRed]

I don't think Zadina was a bad gamble for the Red Wings. However, I think you want and expect that Zadina is showing more signs that he is farther along in his development going into his 2nd AHL season. Some guys are just slow starters though. So, you can't give up on him.

If you're the team who picked Hughes, then you feel really good about that right now. I bet the team who landed Dobson at 12th is also pretty high on him. But I still think we have a lot to learn about what kind of players Zadina, Hughes and the rest of that draft class, are.

If you had to redraft right now, then Hughes looks better than he did at the draft, and at the draft, he looked pretty good! I think questions about how a defender his size holds up in the NHL in the long-term, still remain though. So, I might pick him over Zadina, but not necessarily over Dobson. Therefore, essentially, nothing has changed for me.

 

[vladdy16]

I don't think Zadina was a bad gamble for the Red Wings. However, I think you also want and expect that Zadina shows more signs that he is farther along in his development going into his 2nd AHL season. Some guys are just slow starters though. So, you can't give up on him.

If you're the team who picked Hughes, then you feel really good about that right now. I bet the team who landed Dobson at 12th is also pretty high on him. But I still think we have a lot to learn about what kind of players Zadina, Hughes and the rest of that draft class, are.

If you had to redraft right now, then Hughes looks better than he did at the draft, and at the draft, he looked pretty good! I think questions about how a defender his size holds up in the NHL in the long-term, still remain though. I might pick him over Zadina, but not necessarily over Dobson. So, essentially, nothing has changed for me.

One thing about Hughes that I absolutely love, is how committed he is to his techniques in man to man/hand to hand combat. Size aside, I think his net front and corner game is actually a strength.

Not saying there won't be times down the road where he could be targeted by some advanced strategy, but in general, I don't actually view Hughes as a Jensen/Krug/etc type player, and I think his d-game could be more in line with the Hronek/Rafalski/Chelios mold.

As for Zadina. Pastrnak 'struggled' at a .5 ppg clip in his 18 and 19 yo seasons, then made a huge leap at age 20. I'm not too worried about Zadina's production, as long as he sticks to his game, I think he's going to be a great complimentary player for an up and coming team.

 

[The Zetterberg Era]

One thing about Hughes that I absolutely love, is how committed he is to his techniques in man to man/hand to hand combat. Size aside, I think his net front and corner game is actually a strength.

Not saying there won't be times down the road where he could be targeted by some advanced strategy, but in general, I don't actually view Hughes as a Jensen/Krug/etc type player, and I think his d-game could be more in line with the Hronek/Rafalski/Chelios mold.

As for Zadina. Pastrnak 'struggled' at a .5 ppg clip in his 18 and 19 yo seasons, then made a huge leap at age 20. I'm not too worried about Zadina's production, as long as he sticks to his game, I think he's going to be a great complimentary player for an up and coming team.

Eh.... David Pastrnak was a point per game player in the AHL as an 18 year old forcing a callup.

It is far too early to give up on Zadina, but he does need to pick it up a little. He has improved, really he looks a lot better this year in terms of all over the ice. He just needs to find ways to get open and to get to more dangerous areas. But there has been a decent amount of development in the less glamorous aspects of the game.

 

[Run the Jewels]

The one thing that is indisputable is that the stuff Hughes was doing with the USNTD program and at Michigan immediately transitioned to the NHL. His skating, vision and playmaking transitioned effortlessly. The crap that Zadina got away with when playing crappy CHL competition doesn't translate to the AHL, let alone the NHL. So he has to figure out what if anything from his game will translate. Will it end up working out? No one has any idea, all we can say with certainty is the reasons he was drafted don't appear to have any real validity for professional hockey.

I was a Hughes guy in that draft but I accepted the draft gurus who said Zadina was a steal at 6. It turns out they were wrong. For me it's no real surprise the majority of the NA scouting staff was broomed. Everyone misses out on guys, it really looks like this was a case where we drafted a guy who is not going to be drafted as highly in any redrafts for the foreseeable future.

 

[saska sault]

So far Hughes has won the first 100 meters of the marathon, stay tuned for the next 10 to 15 years to see who crosses the finish line first.

 

[Winger98]

One thing about Hughes that I absolutely love, is how committed he is to his techniques in man to man/hand to hand combat. Size aside, I think his net front and corner game is actually a strength.

Not saying there won't be times down the road where he could be targeted by some advanced strategy, but in general, I don't actually view Hughes as a Jensen/Krug/etc type player, and I think his d-game could be more in line with the Hronek/Rafalski/Chelios mold.

As for Zadina. Pastrnak 'struggled' at a .5 ppg clip in his 18 and 19 yo seasons, then made a huge leap at age 20. I'm not too worried about Zadina's production, as long as he sticks to his game, I think he's going to be a great complimentary player for an up and coming team.

Yeah, I wouldn't go that far.

 

[The Zetterberg Era]

Yeah, I wouldn't go that far.

Because he came here so old and still played a decade, I think a lot of Wings fans forget how dynamic a young Chelios was at times. I mean listing him there was a compliment, but Rafalski is the only guy that reminds me of Hughes and he doesn't have Hughes skating or frankly close to his defensive acumen when comparing early years Rafalski and that is after several years in Europe. Hughes uses his skill and skating to take the puck and to maintain absolute gap control. I will say they have that unbelievable everything is on the tape and at full speed, they pass the puck very similarly in terms of him and Rafalski.

Chelios was a mean dude, Hronek has some of that mean streak to him, but man did I hate Chelios on the Hawks. He was a dynamite player and brutal physically to play against.

 

[Winger98]

Because he came here so old and still played a decade, I think a lot of Wings fans forget how dynamic a young Chelios was at times. I mean listing him there was a compliment, but Rafalski is the only guy that reminds me of Hughes and he doesn't have Hughes skating or frankly close to his defensive acumen when comparing early years Rafalski and that is after several years in Europe. Hughes uses his skill and skating to take the puck and to maintain absolute gap control. I will say they have that unbelievable everything is on the tape and at full speed, they pass the puck very similarly in terms of him and Rafalski.

Chelios was a mean dude, Hronek has some of that mean streak to him, but man did I hate Chelios on the Hawks. He was a dynamite player and brutal physically to play against.

Yeah, the mean streak was the big thing for me in trying to compare anyone to Chelly. I'm trying to think of anyone in the game today who I would really compare to Chelios, and I can't really come up with someone who ticks all of those boxes.

Hughes is someone who fits today's game well. Take that comment how you will.

edit: maybe Doughty, but I don't think even he has the sort of edge to his game that Chelios did.

 

[The Zetterberg Era]

Yeah, the mean streak was the big thing for me in trying to compare anyone to Chelly. I'm trying to think of anyone in the game today who I would really compare to Chelios, and I can't really come up with someone who ticks all of those boxes.

Hughes is someone who fits today's game well. Take that comment how you will.

Trouba is a pretty good one, though a lot of our board doesn't like him. Isn't as good as prime Chelios, but he is a #1 D that wears his enjoyment of punishing guys for all to see, while bringing a ton to the table. Keith was certainly a guy that stepped across lines with his stick but is older now. Weber is a lot bigger and also again older, but he can be a very nasty piece of business when he wants to be.

That kind of stuff is leaving the game, but Chelios was a master at it. Man would he give it to Yzerman to the point where you were screaming in the stands. I mean you have the great old timers like Big Bird and Shore that are constantly talked about for this, I believe Potvin was pretty rugged as well if I remember right. But Chelios and Pronger were kind of the last guys of not only outstanding D-man, but just played the game surly angry and laughed at you half the time while they were punishing you.

 

[Winger98]

Trouba is a pretty good one, though a lot of our board doesn't like him. Isn't as good as prime Chelios, but he is a #1 D that wears his enjoyment of punishing guys for all to see, while bringing a ton to the table. Keith was certainly a guy that stepped across lines with his stick but is older now. Weber is a lot bigger and also again older, but he can be a very nasty piece of business when he wants to be.

That kind of stuff is leaving the game, but Chelios was a master at it. Man would he give it to Yzerman to the point where you were screaming in the stands. I mean you have the great old timers like Big Bird and Shore that are constantly talked about for this, I believe Potvin was pretty rugged as well if I remember right. But Chelios and Pronger were kind of the last guys of not only outstanding D-man, but just played the game surly angry and laughed at you half the time while they were punishing you.

Instead we have some dipshit licking people.

Byfuglien has played with a bit of an edge, and he's just so big. I'll give you Weber, a bit, but none of them really embrace it the way Chelios or Pronger (or Vladdy, for what it's worth) did. I thought Gary Suter was sort of gleefully dirty, too. Those Blackhawk teams were a rough bunch.

 

[Unfriendly Ghost]

So far Hughes has won the first 100 meters of the marathon, stay tuned for the next 10 to 15 years to see who crosses the finish line first.

Until they both make the NHL, it's a relatively short race. Hughes has shown he's at that level. Now we have to wonder if Zadina will be. There's no guarantee.