Zadina vs. Hughes

[TatarTangle]

Zadina will be fine in the long run. Even though this is his 2nd year as a pro, I really feel like this is his first year as a someone who can potentially make the roster. It's not that his Hockey IQ is low, it seems more like his world was shaken a bit and he's had to come to grips with how hard you need to work, at the pro level. Every big goal scorer loves to think that they are Alex Ovechkin and their talent just naturally translates to whatever level they play to. But no one sees how hard Ovechkin worked on his conditioning, strength, and his shot. Even Ovechkin-like clones like Laine are now realizing just how much hard work it takes.

So if it takes Zadina 3 years to make the club and he's a 20-ish goal scorer when he makes the club at 21-22 years of age, I'm totally fine with that. Just look how long it took Mantha and AA to find their footing. Zadina will be a top-6 forward before too long and we'll all turn our attention to the next prospect who doesn't meet our exacting expectations and make the club straight out of Bantam or something.

Keep in mind this board is the same collective mind that hated the Larkin pick.

 

[ChrisReevesLegs]

So you’ve never watched Zadina dominate his peer group in juniors. Quickly wrote him off as a late first or early second talent based on watching him as an 18 year old. And now that he’s actually strung together some very good performances, you just don’t have the ability to watch and make a new assessment?

It seems like you’d be impossible to impress.

Yes, I think there are issues with his game, but I’ve also seen the beginnings of him addressing some of those issues. I don’t think he’s out of place as a top ten caliber player, and while he hasn’t performed in the NHL like some of the others, he isn’t truly behind the 8 ball as of yet.

Ok bud, I thought we were playing nice and sharing viewpoints. If you wanna be like this and play the assumption and straw man game we can do this a whole different way. No problem.

I've absolutely watched Zadina's junior play since drafting him. I guarantee I've watched his play in the AHL more than you have, unless you watch nearly every GR game like I do. And since this has been posted I've caught up on those games I missed. Ready for my take?

His recent hot streak has been a lot of net jam and one-timer goals. While I'm glad he's scoring, the truly elite offensive ability promised to us is still missing. His work with the puck on his stick is still non-existent. He's expected to be a player who makes things happen with the puck. He doesn't. Still not finding the space, and can't seem to back off a defender. His passing looks slightly improved but stiill overall his game is disappointing.

I implore you. Please give me your hot take on his play. I'd love to hear your cope mechanism half-hearted kool aid drinking breakdown of a Wings prospect.

 

[ChrisReevesLegs]

I think part of it is you have radically unrealistic expectations of what a "late first rounder" as you keep calling Zadina actually is

you mention Hudler

did you know that right now 17 years after his draft Hudler is 4th in his draft class in points per game in the NHL(and 7th in actual points)?

If Hudler is so good why do you have a problem with me comparing Zadina to him?

 

[MBH]

Keep in mind this board is the same collective mind that hated the Larkin pick.

You got a link to the Larkin thread?

NVM
Found it!
Prospect Info: - 15th overall — C Dylan Larkin: Larkin signs 3 year entry deal

 

[MBH]

At the time the overwhelming majority were delighted he fell to us. Agree that now it looks like Hughes was a miss, and he was someone I liked, but will confess I had no idea he's be this good this quickly, unlike Petterson who I was praying would fall to the wings.

As for Bouchard, Boqvist and Dobson, at this point, none have shown appreciably more than Zadina, so I'm not ready to anoint them as better options until there is a considerably larger sample size.

Yeah...
Red Wings fans celebrated a steal, for sure.
I wasn't one of them.
Don't get me wrong. I thought he was a good pick. Just not the best pick because we needed a #1D.
We could be sitting here with
Cholo-Dobson
******-Seider
*****-Hronek
right now.

Or -
Hughes-Seider
Cholo-Hronek

Or whatever.

My words on draft day:

I'm not sure if letting Zadina drop past you is a good move, if you're Holland.

But we also passed up on 4 defensemen who are very highly regarded...meaning we've pushed the development of a top-pairing defenseman off into the future by another year... maybe 2023.

So five years from now, when you look at Liljegren and Dobson turning into top pairing dmen, and you're looking at a team with Rasmussen and Larkin and Veleno and Mantha and Zadina, and maybe Athanasiou and Bertuzzi - but nobody worth a damn to play defense and get them the puck

 

[ChrisReevesLegs]

We were the winners when came to Detroit.

Giguerre carried him to one game short of the cup.

Canada team can be coached by justin bieber to the cold.


This time he had to make it all the way on his own. He failed.

Saying this, I think he can win the cup, and I strongly believe he will.

If I was Tampa's GM I would bring him right now, he would lead them to the cup.

You got a link to the Larkin thread?

NVM
Found it!
Prospect Info: - 15th overall — C Dylan Larkin: Larkin signs 3 year entry deal

Yeah...
Red Wings fans celebrated a steal, for sure.
I wasn't one of them.
Don't get me wrong. I thought he was a good pick. Just not the best pick because we needed a #1D.
We could be sitting here with
Cholo-Dobson
******-Seider
*****-Hronek
right now.

Or -
Hughes-Seider
Cholo-Hronek

Or whatever.

My words on draft day:

You're likely smarter than 99% of this board

 

[MBH]

You're likely smarter than 99% of this board

99? More like 99.5.

 

[TatarTangle]

You got a link to the Larkin thread?

NVM
Found it!
Prospect Info: - 15th overall — C Dylan Larkin: Larkin signs 3 year entry deal

Look for Eurotwins 2.0 lol

 

[TatarTangle]

Ok bud, I thought we were playing nice and sharing viewpoints. If you wanna be like this and play the assumption and straw man game we can do this a whole different way. No problem.

I've absolutely watched Zadina's junior play since drafting him. I guarantee I've watched his play in the AHL more than you have, unless you watch nearly every GR game like I do. And since this has been posted I've caught up on those games I missed. Ready for my take?

His recent hot streak has been a lot of net jam and one-timer goals. While I'm glad he's scoring, the truly elite offensive ability promised to us is still missing. His work with the puck on his stick is still non-existent. He's expected to be a player who makes things happen with the puck. He doesn't. Still not finding the space, and can't seem to back off a defender. His passing looks slightly improved but stiill overall his game is disappointing.

I implore you. Please give me your hot take on his play. I'd love to hear your cope mechanism half-hearted kool aid drinking breakdown of a Wings prospect.

I knew you were super serial when you said "Ok bud" FWIW

 

[Hen Kolland]

Yeah...
Red Wings fans celebrated a steal, for sure.
I wasn't one of them.
Don't get me wrong. I thought he was a good pick. Just not the best pick because we needed a #1D.
We could be sitting here with
Cholo-Dobson
******-Seider
*****-Hronek
right now.

Or -
Hughes-Seider
Cholo-Hronek

Or whatever.

My words on draft day:

I think we all can tend to fall into an unsafe condition of revisionist history when it comes to stuff like this. I, like you, would have placed defense at the top of my list. I had Dobson as high, or higher on my list than a majority of posters here, and I still stand by that feeling. I think the part where we get into trouble is assuming that everything else remains equal if we make a change to the conditions. Say we do pick Dobson or Hughes over Zadina, we don't know how things change from an organizational perspective on where the strengths are. And without an offensive minded winger like Zadina, we could easily be sitting here today commenting on the performance of Vasili Podkolzin in the VHL or KHL. Or Trevor Zegras with BU, or Dylan Cozens in the WHL.

Not to say any of these things are necessarily a bad thing, but it's just illustrating a point of how much can change with just a slight change in the organization's perspective. Now, based on all the comments from SY, I would hope he realizes the importance of getting the best player possible, regardless of position, when it comes to selecting in the top 10, but there is no way of being sure.

 

[TheOtherOne]

Yeah...
Red Wings fans celebrated a steal, for sure.
I wasn't one of them.
Don't get me wrong. I thought he was a good pick. Just not the best pick because we needed a #1D.
We could be sitting here with
Cholo-Dobson
******-Seider
*****-Hronek
right now.

Or -
Hughes-Seider
Cholo-Hronek

Or whatever.

My words on draft day:

I dunno, that's a fine take I guess, but also, defensemen can be obtained in other ways.

If we're competitive and we have Hronek and Seider looking good and we're 1 legit defenseman away, it will be relatively easy to find someone.

When you have holes all over the place like we do now, you have a tough time and have to suck it up and wait a few years. But when you only have one hole, you spend money and fill it. That's what trades and free agents are for.

 

[2xJack]

Ok bud, I thought we were playing nice and sharing viewpoints. If you wanna be like this and play the assumption and straw man game we can do this a whole different way. No problem.

I've absolutely watched Zadina's junior play since drafting him. I guarantee I've watched his play in the AHL more than you have, unless you watch nearly every GR game like I do. And since this has been posted I've caught up on those games I missed. Ready for my take?

His recent hot streak has been a lot of net jam and one-timer goals. While I'm glad he's scoring, the truly elite offensive ability promised to us is still missing. His work with the puck on his stick is still non-existent. He's expected to be a player who makes things happen with the puck. He doesn't. Still not finding the space, and can't seem to back off a defender. His passing looks slightly improved but stiill overall his game is disappointing.

I implore you. Please give me your hot take on his play. I'd love to hear your cope mechanism half-hearted kool aid drinking breakdown of a Wings prospect.

This is exactly my take. Outside of showing he has one hell of a shot with his one-time goals, Zadina hasn't displayed the upside I'd expected. I broke down his first three scores of the season earlier in the thread. His more recent goals have been more of the same. In fact, one goal he "scored" was on a shot he took that got knocked into the net, so just a credited goal. He's simply not going to have an NHL career if he can't create scoring opportunities on his own. Lucky bounce cleanup goals and a wicked one-timer when he can't get open consistently aren't enough.

I do not think his call up will last 9 games. In one game he had one shot, two giveaways and was a -1. He's quite clearly not NHL ready, and he's not even established as a bonafide top line player in the AHL yet.

 

[Wooren]

This is exactly my take. Outside of showing he has one hell of a shot with his one-time goals, Zadina hasn't displayed the upside I'd expected. I broke down his first three scores of the season earlier in the thread. His more recent goals have been more of the same. In fact, one goal he "scored" was on a shot he took that got knocked into the net, so just a credited goal. He's simply not going to have an NHL career if he can't create scoring opportunities on his own. Lucky bounce cleanup goals and a wicked one-timer when he can't get open consistently aren't enough.

I do not think his call up will last 9 games. In one game he had one shot, two giveaways and was a -1. He's quite clearly not NHL ready, and he's not even established as a bonafide top line player in the AHL yet.

What a bum, he gets gifted the best teammates on the squad and he can't even get on the score sheet like everybody else. Hell, he can't even freeze the puck, allowing the opposition an easy goal!

 

[Lil Sebastian Cossa]

Yeah...
Red Wings fans celebrated a steal, for sure.
I wasn't one of them.
Don't get me wrong. I thought he was a good pick. Just not the best pick because we needed a #1D.
We could be sitting here with
Cholo-Dobson
******-Seider
*****-Hronek
right now.

Or -
Hughes-Seider
Cholo-Hronek

Or whatever.

My words on draft day:

So with your words on draft day...

"It would be a bad idea to pass on Zadina."
"But if you take Zadina, there are good defensemen on the board too."

Way to go out on a ****ing limb there. You shouldn't pass up this guy... but you shouldn't pass on these defensemen either. Basically what you said is of no consequence. Zadina is a good pick but so is Dobson or Bouchard or Hughes or Boqvist. So the remainder of the top 9 prospects available at 6 would all be a good pick. Wow, like florals in spring. Earthshaking.

Based on the knowledge available on draft day... I don't see an argument against Zadina unless you were "I am taking defense no ifs, ands, or buts." He was ranked higher pretty much universally above any of those defensemen. You can like Dobson or Hughes better... but it was a scenario where everything available said Zadina > any of those defensemen as he didn't look to have massive drawbacks and all of those D did (except maybe Dobson, but he was more of a "jack of all trades, master of none." Hughes is a mini-D. Boqvist had a history of concussions. Bouchard's defensive positioning and awareness was absolute dog**** in some of the highlights that came out. Dobson prob should have been the pick because he was just so well rounded... but well rounded when it comes to draft time usually gets picked apart as having no exceptional skill.

Just looking at the top of the draft objectively with data available at the time... Zadina was the guy.

 

[MBH]

So with your words on draft day...

"It would be a bad idea to pass on Zadina."
"But if you take Zadina, there are good defensemen on the board too."

Way to go out on a ****ing limb there. You shouldn't pass up this guy... but you shouldn't pass on these defensemen either. Basically what you said is of no consequence. Zadina is a good pick but so is Dobson or Bouchard or Hughes or Boqvist. So the remainder of the top 9 prospects available at 6 would all be a good pick. Wow, like florals in spring. Earthshaking.

Based on the knowledge available on draft day... I don't see an argument against Zadina unless you were "I am taking defense no ifs, ands, or buts." He was ranked higher pretty much universally above any of those defensemen. You can like Dobson or Hughes better... but it was a scenario where everything available said Zadina > any of those defensemen as he didn't look to have massive drawbacks and all of those D did (except maybe Dobson, but he was more of a "jack of all trades, master of none." Hughes is a mini-D. Boqvist had a history of concussions. Bouchard's defensive positioning and awareness was absolute dog**** in some of the highlights that came out. Dobson prob should have been the pick because he was just so well rounded... but well rounded when it comes to draft time usually gets picked apart as having no exceptional skill.

Just looking at the top of the draft objectively with data available at the time... Zadina was the guy.

Dobson was my guy.
Dobson is who I would have picked.

 

[Roomba With a Bauer]

Zadina was a good pick at the position the Wings were at. Anything else is revisionist bullshit.

There were no groundbreaking sure-fire defensemen in that draft and the Wings roster and prospect board sucked at all positions. The Wings had just finished the season with only one player over 60 points, and their second highest scorer was about to retire. AA was a huge question mark and Bertuzzi was barely in the NHL. Going BPA and swinging for the fences wasn't a bad idea. This is coming from a guy who hates the guts of that entire management staff.

To be frank, the Wings are going to suck for so long that Zadina may well be the best player of the bunch by the time they are relevant again, and having Hughes or Dobson on the roster wouldn't push this team into the playoffs, it would just hurt their draft position. There will likely be better D-men available in this, or next year's draft.

 

[Henkka]

Interesting thing about Evan Bouchard.

18 games in AHL, 3+7=10 points,
-9 plusminus.

Moritz Seider in AHL
20 games, 1+10=11 points
-2 plusminus

Bouchard is 1,5 years (18 months) older than Seider.

I think we went after defencemen (with a high pick) in a right draft (2019).

2018 and 2020 are good to go after forwards.