Zadina probably starting out in GR

ricky0034

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Jun 8, 2010
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Hudler was mostly undermined by playing for a coach who refused to acknowledge that he was as good as he was. His work ethic was exemplary and he developed those bad off-ice habits long after leaving Detroit. Hudler and datsyuk's production was so much better when they played with each other than when they didn't, yet they rarely did.

Hudler on the Wings was a victim of the mentality that you need to have some gritty guy on every line to "pull the piano" just because

when you have a bunch of skill and insist on stapling a Cleary or Abdelkader to every one of your best players just because it's gonna leave odd men out

the annoying thing is the one time they tried a line that wasn't like that long-term it worked out very well and was the biggest factor in the Wings being the best even strength team in the league that year and then they just....didn't bring him back the next year
 

SCD

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Apr 8, 2018
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As it relates to sports, I think of skill as an innate ability to perform a task at high level. Schooling and practice can improve that ability, but no amount of schooling or practice will help the majority achieve that ability.

Like the saying, concert pianists are born, not made.
 

JoesuffP

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Feb 3, 2016
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I’m not making excuses for Zadina’s overall game but his goal scoring numbers as an 18 year old in the AHL suggest a very talented goal scorer that the wings haven’t had in a very long time. Certainly better than Hudler. If you’re going to compare players than you should compare their stats and at what age. Zadina’s pace is better than any prospect the wings have had in their first year pro and he’s also younger
 

The Zermanator

In Yzerman We Trust
Jan 21, 2013
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If you can't tolerate dissenting opinion, then by all means use the ignore feature on me. I have no desire to engage with anyone who can't handle mature discussion.

Now how do you know I was talking about you? I didn't mention anyone by name.

I can tolerate dissenting opinion just fine, I've been commenting on this forum for nearly 6 years and have had many disagreements without ever once using the ignore button. This place would be quite boring if everyone were in lockstep with each other. It's just funny that you would use the term 'mature discussion', as it seems you've unnecessarily ruffled quite a few feathers around here in the short time since you've signed up. We're a very welcoming bunch for the most part, with a wide range of opinions. Just saying that being personally combative and condescending doesn't add anything to the discussion and will cause people to tune you out. And that would be a shame because new perspectives are always welcome.
 

The Zermanator

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Jan 21, 2013
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Now to get back on track I find the pace at which Zadina is adjusting to the NA pro game to be very encouraging. If he keeps it up he could be challenging for a spot on the big club by the latter half of season, and certainly for a spot on next season's opening roster.

Very exciting to have a triggerman of his caliber in the org.
 

ChrisReevesLegs

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Nov 5, 2018
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I’m not making excuses for Zadina’s overall game but his goal scoring numbers as an 18 year old in the AHL suggest a very talented goal scorer that the wings haven’t had in a very long time. Certainly better than Hudler. If you’re going to compare players than you should compare their stats and at what age. Zadina’s pace is better than any prospect the wings have had in their first year pro and he’s also younger

Was supposedly NHL ready... is tied for 128th in AHL scoring and is -8

Disappointing
 

SCD

Registered User
Apr 8, 2018
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Was supposedly NHL ready... is tied for 128th in AHL scoring and is -8

Disappointing
I bought into the post-draft hype thinking he would start the season in Detroit.

But at 18, it is all about development. It is unrealistic for the majority of prospects to make it to the NHL before 20. One of the reasons I think the draft should be starting at 19, rather than 18. Teams would have a much better idea of what they are getting.

Like Cholowski during his time at St. Cloud, not disappointing if he can contribute in a couple of years.
 

ChrisReevesLegs

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Now how do you know I was talking about you? I didn't mention anyone by name.

I can tolerate dissenting opinion just fine, I've been commenting on this forum for nearly 6 years and have had many disagreements without ever once using the ignore button. This place would be quite boring if everyone were in lockstep with each other. It's just funny that you would use the term 'mature discussion', as it seems you've unnecessarily ruffled quite a few feathers around here in the short time since you've signed up. We're a very welcoming bunch for the most part, with a wide range of opinions. Just saying that being personally combative and condescending doesn't add anything to the discussion and will cause people to tune you out. And that would be a shame because new perspectives are always welcome.

Everyone knows who and what you're talking about. But go ahead and pretend you weren't after the fact, it's just cowardly IMO.

Opinions often ruffle feathers. Get used to it. I posted my opinion and was treated with mostly disdain. Those who took my opinion seriously and treated me respectfully I politely thanked. Those who didn't I dished it back to them. That's how discussion tends to work. Anyway, I apologize for my part in any rudeness.

Heaven forbid this echo chamber hears another outside perspective again...

Ok, now I'm done being rude.
 
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ChrisReevesLegs

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Nov 5, 2018
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I bought into the post-draft hype thinking he would start the season in Detroit.

But at 18, it is all about development. It is unrealistic for the majority of prospects to make it to the NHL before 20. One of the reasons I think the draft should be starting at 19, rather than 18. Teams would have a much better idea of what they are getting.

Like Cholowski during his time at St. Cloud, not disappointing if he can contribute in a couple of years.

You have a good point about Cholowski.

Like with Cholo, I think we can acknowledge the fact that Zadina had a disappointing start to the year. Not starting with Detroit. Not tearing up the AHL. There's no shame in admitting that. He's 18 and there's plenty of time for him to grow, just look at Cholowski now.
 

Fil Larkmanthanasiou

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Feb 10, 2018
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Oh he had the bad habits during his tenure Detroit as well...
Do you have some insider knowledge. Did you party with him?
In his last season with the Stars he was scratched for an unspecified illness for much of the season. I was wondering what was wrong with him and then the story abut him on the plane surfaced the following season and that explained it. I never heard of any such stuff while he was in Detroit.
 

Fil Larkmanthanasiou

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Feb 10, 2018
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I’m not making excuses for Zadina’s overall game but his goal scoring numbers as an 18 year old in the AHL suggest a very talented goal scorer that the wings haven’t had in a very long time. Certainly better than Hudler. If you’re going to compare players than you should compare their stats and at what age. Zadina’s pace is better than any prospect the wings have had in their first year pro and he’s also younger
Hudler's production in his rookie pro year was much better than Zadina's is currently but Hudler was a year older then and he regressed in his sophomore season.
 

Fil Larkmanthanasiou

Registered User
Feb 10, 2018
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You have a good point about Cholowski.

Like with Cholo, I think we can acknowledge the fact that Zadina had a disappointing start to the year. Not starting with Detroit. Not tearing up the AHL. There's no shame in admitting that. He's 18 and there's plenty of time for him to grow, just look at Cholowski now.
There are usually less than a handful of players every year that make it directly to the NHL after being drafted. Expecting someone who isn't projected to be a possible generational talent to make it as an 18 year old is unrealistic.
 

Fil Larkmanthanasiou

Registered User
Feb 10, 2018
1,115
603
I bought into the post-draft hype thinking he would start the season in Detroit.

But at 18, it is all about development. It is unrealistic for the majority of prospects to make it to the NHL before 20. One of the reasons I think the draft should be starting at 19, rather than 18. Teams would have a much better idea of what they are getting.

Like Cholowski during his time at St. Cloud, not disappointing if he can contribute in a couple of years.
I like that they draft them as young as they do. Some players are ready to come in at that age and contribute and sometimes even dominate and it makes it more likely to find steals in the draft.
 

ChrisReevesLegs

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Nov 5, 2018
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If you look at his production relative to ice-time, he actually had his best season in Detroit. If only he could have iomproved his ice-time he woiuld have had a much bigger impact with the Wings especially when they really needed him when Hossa seperated his shoulder and couldn't shoot or fight for loose pucks but Hudler was a ****ty ice-timer.

I don't wanna do the math, so I'll just trust you on that one.
 

Frk It

Mo Seider Less Problems
Jul 27, 2010
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The guy that Zadina reminds me of personally is Filip Forsberg, at least just in terms of play style.

Hudler was a pure playmaker, not a sniper. Stark contrast from Zadina there. He always had a super high shooting % because he basically refused to shoot the puck unless he was in a glorious spot to do so. That is not how Zadina plays, he is more aggressive and he’s very confident in shooting the puck.

If I was concerned Zadina was to share the unfortunate fate of an ex-Wing it would be Jurco, who had the tools but never put it together. Although I think Zadina is better offensively in just about every way, and I think the back issues really de-railed the development of Jurco.
 

ChrisReevesLegs

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Nov 5, 2018
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The guy that Zadina reminds me of personally is Filip Forsberg, at least just in terms of play style.

Hudler was a pure playmaker, not a sniper. Stark contrast from Zadina there. He always had a super high shooting % because he basically refused to shoot the puck unless he was in a glorious spot to do so. That is not how Zadina plays, he is more aggressive and he’s very confident in shooting the puck.

If I was concerned Zadina was to share the unfortunate fate of an ex-Wing it would be Jurco, who had the tools but never put it together. Although I think Zadina is better offensively in just about every way, and I think the back issues really de-railed the development of Jurco.

THANK YOU for the constructive discussion...

I guess I don't know Forsberg as well as I should. Does he produce a high volume of shots?

My thoughts on Hudler was partially comparing the wrist shot. Jiri had a solid wrister even if he didn't use it all the time. Zadina has that as well.

Why Jurco? He was god awful at everything.
 

Frk It

Mo Seider Less Problems
Jul 27, 2010
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THANK YOU for the constructive discussion...

I guess I don't know Forsberg as well as I should. Does he produce a high volume of shots?

My thoughts on Hudler was partially comparing the wrist shot. Jiri had a solid wrister even if he didn't use it all the time. Zadina has that as well.

Why Jurco? He was god awful at everything.

Re:Jurco

Similar frame. Both are crafty stickhandlers, though I think Zadina owns much better hands. More scorers than playmakers. Both Czech.

Nyqust and Hudler are perimeter playmaker/pass first guys, they don’t play like Zadina at all to me.

Jurco is closer than anyone else I can think of that has come through our system. Maybe a bigger version of Tatar... I hope he learns how to adjust better than Tatar though, Tatar thought he had to walk 2-3 guys every shift and pick a corner every time he shot. I think Zadina is better suited to do those things, but he needs to pick his spots better than Tatar did.

Jurco is like the “Great Value” version of Zadina to me... lol.
 
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HisNoodliness

The Karate Kid and ASP Kai
Jun 29, 2014
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Alright so here's my much-too-long contribution to this inflamed Zadina discussion. Pre- and post-draft, I thought he'd step straight into the NHL and produce pretty well. This has turned out to not be the case, and that's fine. I haven't really adjusted my long-term projection (30-30 1W with the potential for more), but obviously in the short term we need to adjust.

Why is he struggling more than anticipated IMO? Mostly I think it's game speed. Zadina is a smart player that relies very heavily on his reads to produce. If you give him space he'll pull up and laser a puck on net so defenders have to play him tight. In the Q when they closed on him he was ready and beat them with his hands. Now in the AHL they're closing on him quicker and when he tries the same moves they're stuffing him because they're bigger and faster than him.

Furthermore he's used to having that second to read his opponent before he acts. Now all of his decisions are a little too late. How is he adjusting? He's having to be less selfish (passing it off when pressured), improve his skating/strength and readjust his moves to the tougher pace- in juniors if he managed to fake someone, his speed was enough to pull away, but in the AHL they're managing to defend him when he gets that half step. I think he's adjusting to those things well, thus I'm not worried about the long-term projection. My short-term projection was off because I thought his reads would be quick enough to compensate for the faster pace, but that hasn't been the case.

What are Zadina's strengths that still make me super excited? For me it's all about his versatility. He's that guy with an answer to every way you try to defend him. His shot is his only truly elite quality so it starts there. Give him the space to use it and he'll score. Defenders are always going to have to close on him. Lots of shooters can't handle that pressure, but I think what makes Zadina special is how well he can handle that interaction:

"Pressured him from this angle, beat you with a toe drag, tried this, beat the triangle on you. Tried this, never seen that move before. Tried completely taking the body? It was on his teammate's stick behind you before you knew he was there. Decided the only option is to back off? He scored with his shot that coach warned you about before the game. Why'd you give him that space?! That's the 'one' thing you can never do."

In juniors, Zadina'd wait for the D to make their move and already had his dangle through them, or pass ready. His hands and his vision for these things are both really good so if he can read the D, he'll burn them.

Physically he's definitely too slow and weak for the AHL/NHL right now, but once he's up to speed, he can out-think his opponents well enough to mitigate that. I'm not worried about that aspect of things, over time he should develop into someone that's about average NHL size and probably quicker than average. I don't think those things will ever be big strengths, but once they're not weaknesses he can rely on his offensive versatility without getting pushed around.

Right now he's a step behind so he's only producing when he's given the time to shoot. That he's actually producing pretty well despite being clearly a step behind is a testament to how good he can be when he catches up. Now you could say "I don't think he's that smart so he'll always be a step behind," and I guess that's a valid projection- we are trying to guess how a prospect will develop after all. If that's the case he'll probably be limited to resembling a bigger, shoot-first Hudler (to be fair that would still be a decent player). But from what I've seen, he's a really smart player so I'm projecting that it's just a matter of time before his complete set of tools go on display in the AHL and then the NHL.
 

ChrisReevesLegs

Registered User
Nov 5, 2018
328
198
Seattle
Alright so here's my much-too-long contribution to this inflamed Zadina discussion. Pre- and post-draft, I thought he'd step straight into the NHL and produce pretty well. This has turned out to not be the case, and that's fine. I haven't really adjusted my long-term projection (30-30 1W with the potential for more), but obviously in the short term we need to adjust.

Why is he struggling more than anticipated IMO? Mostly I think it's game speed. Zadina is a smart player that relies very heavily on his reads to produce. If you give him space he'll pull up and laser a puck on net so defenders have to play him tight. In the Q when they closed on him he was ready and beat them with his hands. Now in the AHL they're closing on him quicker and when he tries the same moves they're stuffing him because they're bigger and faster than him.

Furthermore he's used to having that second to read his opponent before he acts. Now all of his decisions are a little too late. How is he adjusting? He's having to be less selfish (passing it off when pressured), improve his skating/strength and readjust his moves to the tougher pace- in juniors if he managed to fake someone, his speed was enough to pull away, but in the AHL they're managing to defend him when he gets that half step. I think he's adjusting to those things well, thus I'm not worried about the long-term projection. My short-term projection was off because I thought his reads would be quick enough to compensate for the faster pace, but that hasn't been the case.

What are Zadina's strengths that still make me super excited? For me it's all about his versatility. He's that guy with an answer to every way you try to defend him. His shot is his only truly elite quality so it starts there. Give him the space to use it and he'll score. Defenders are always going to have to close on him. Lots of shooters can't handle that pressure, but I think what makes Zadina special is how well he can handle that interaction:

"Pressured him from this angle, beat you with a toe drag, tried this, beat the triangle on you. Tried this, never seen that move before. Tried completely taking the body? It was on his teammate's stick behind you before you knew he was there. Decided the only option is to back off? He scored with his shot that coach warned you about before the game. Why'd you give him that space?! That's the 'one' thing you can never do."

In juniors, Zadina'd wait for the D to make their move and already had his dangle through them, or pass ready. His hands and his vision for these things are both really good so if he can read the D, he'll burn them.

Physically he's definitely too slow and weak for the AHL/NHL right now, but once he's up to speed, he can out-think his opponents well enough to mitigate that. I'm not worried about that aspect of things, over time he should develop into someone that's about average NHL size and probably quicker than average. I don't think those things will ever be big strengths, but once they're not weaknesses he can rely on his offensive versatility without getting pushed around.

Right now he's a step behind so he's only producing when he's given the time to shoot. That he's actually producing pretty well despite being clearly a step behind is a testament to how good he can be when he catches up. Now you could say "I don't think he's that smart so he'll always be a step behind," and I guess that's a valid projection- we are trying to guess how a prospect will develop after all. If that's the case he'll probably be limited to resembling a bigger, shoot-first Hudler (to be fair that would still be a decent player). But from what I've seen, he's a really smart player so I'm projecting that it's just a matter of time before his complete set of tools go on display in the AHL and then the NHL.

I wanna be clear, in my previous posts I wasn't trying to knock his intelligence. He's a smart player fersure. I have more or less seen some questionable passes while in the cycle, that made me go "what in the heck was he thinking". Which is why I said specifically decision making. Maybe when he learns systems better this will disappear? Idk, I lost confidence in this after Brendan Smith

When you say "he's a step behind" do you mean reaction time? Or literal foot speed?
 

HisNoodliness

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Jun 29, 2014
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I wanna be clear, in my previous posts I wasn't trying to knock his intelligence. He's a smart player fersure. I have more or less seen some questionable passes while in the cycle, that made me go "what in the heck was he thinking". Which is why I said specifically decision making. Maybe when he learns systems better this will disappear? Idk, I lost confidence in this after Brendan Smith

When you say "he's a step behind" do you mean reaction time? Or literal foot speed?

I think I know what you're talking about and to me those passes could be a bunch of things. Certainly learning new systems especially professional vs jr can be tough. And "being a step behind" (which I'll address in my next point) is contributing I think. But sometimes too I think he's trying something clever and it didn't work out. Oftentimes the smartest plays are the really dumb ones that work out.

When I say being a step-behind, I mean more reaction time than skating but it's sort of both. When Zadina receives the puck in the AHL, often a D is on top of him before he's ready. He's not used to defenders closing gaps as quickly as they do at this level (similar to how Hronek looked uncomfortable in the NHL because he wasn't quick enough). Some of that comes from their skating being better and him not being able to buy space with his skating, but mostly he's just not used to the break-neck decision making that professional hockey demands.
 

Ezekial

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I agree with just about everything besides both being crafty stickhandlers. IMO Jurco wasn't a crafty stickhandler at all. Sure he could post neat youtube videos of him doing tricks... but in game I barely remember him even attempting to pull moves.

Now watch the Red Wings try to turn Zadina into a perimeter player....
Jurco used to flash a lot more skill as a junior.
giphy.gif


I'm sure some will say "Babcock"
 
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HisNoodliness

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Jurco used to flash a lot more skill as a junior.
giphy.gif


I'm sure some will say "Babcock"

I truly with all my heart believe that Jurco "could" have turned into Hossa-lite if not for Babcock. It seemed like Jurco would go out, make five creative plays that worked, one that failed and get benched immediately. That kind of treatment will scare anyone into playing hot potato. But that's off-topic so don't let me derail this thread.
 
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