Proposal: Yes or No: Hit the reset button on this team

[Al14]

I firmly believe that Kessel and Phaneuf should be traded. I'm also leaning toward trading JvR and Lupul.

Kessel - not a 200ft. player that avoids contact at all costs.
Phaneuf - has too many lapses in effort IMHO.
Lupul - misses too many defensive assignments.
JvR - takes too many games off.

 

[ULF_55]

I think Kessel's contract is okay, because of Kane's contract. (a couple million per year less cap hit makes it okay)

The trouble is Toews at 19 was better than anything the Leafs have at any age today.

Leafs aren't grooming anyone to make a Toews-Kane combination on the team, they just don't have anyone with that ability in the system.

Either they reset and go with a younger group of players. 2 years ago no one would have even considered a Kessel for Johansen trade situation that was anything but rip-off, and yet today I doubt Kessel would get you Johansen. If you could do a struggling Johansen for Kessel, in a reset for long term, I'd definitely consider it. The crystal ball requirement is the issue, kind of like the Kessel deal in the beginning 3 unknown picks for a relatively known Kessel.

Another reset option would be to do deal for a 1st. line center (I'm not sold on Staal), but keeping Kessel and bringing in a 1st. line center is going to cost, IMO, two core players from the team, and at this point I don't think Gardiner holds a tonne of value. Benching a 21 year old defender is one thing benching a 24 year old defender is really dramatically different.

If you're getting a 1st. line center from a team, chances are that other team thinks they have two 1st. line centers.

Which 2nd. line center on the Leafs has the most value in a trade? Remember the Leafs don't have a 19 year old center like Toews or a 20 year old Johansen to dangle here.

I'd rather move Kessel, while others believe he's an untouchable.

Corsi says this team's success (the teeny bit it has had) is a mirage, if we want to buy into stats, this team needs a major overhaul. Of course we could just say those stats are bogus and carry on.

 

[thewave]

I firmly believe that Kessel and Phaneuf should be traded. I'm also leaning toward trading JvR and Lupul.

Kessel - not a 200ft. player that avoids contact at all costs.
Phaneuf - has too many lapses in effort IMHO.
Lupul - misses too many defensive assignments.
JvR - takes too many games off.

You can hide JVR and Kessel behind a responsible wing and C on another line. You can not hide Bozak and Lupul(you could but he is injured to often) You can not hide Jake or Clarkson. Polak is nothing special and neither is Robidas.

There is no shame in protecting a couple softies. They are strikers on the wing, they score.

JVR Kessel Kadri Komarov Franson Dion Rielly And then work on Holland Panik Santorelli Winnik.

Bozak Lupul Robidas Clarkson Booth Smith Ashton Gardiner Polak do what exactly? And they cost 27m

Granted Bozak has been breakaway player of the year and Lupul has been doing well they suck defensively. Fix that first and we will be getting closer. Hint some can be done from within. Percy Brown Leivo Nylander are on radar and a couple others. It won't make a PO team but it can fill the roster and provide flexibility and a draft pick.

Nonis is bent on scraping into the POs though. You can't reason with this stance. They want to save their jobs etc.

 

[TeamBester]

Easiest and best way to fix the top line (imo) is to trade JVR for a good young two way center and Bozak/Lupul for a good two way winger.

Edit: Or something like

JVR ++ for Hall

Bozak + Gardiner for ROR

Trade Lupul for anything.

Hall ROR Kessel

 

[Jes5ant]

The problem with this team is that they have reached their ceiling. Pheneuf, Kessel, Bozak, Lupul and Clarkson are not going to get any better and they take up the majority of our cap space. The younger guys like Rielly, Franson, Holland, Santorelli, Panik, Kadri and Percy could get better. However if they did improve we do not have the cap space to resign them. Nor do we have the cap space to sign any free agents. So our basement, as we have seen, is a bottom five team. And our ceiling is a 8-5 team. If the best your team could ever be is 8-5 then you need to make some changes.

 

[BraveCanadian]

It has been time to blow up this team since we saw what the ceiling for Kessel and Phaneuf looked like and it was apparent they were not good enough.

 

[mulefarm]

Bozak and Gardiner for Ror is a huge overpayment!

 

[BraveCanadian]

Bozak and Gardiner for Ror is a huge overpayment!

Also completely ignores the cap.

 

[Jes5ant]

A Hall for JVR type of deal wouldn't even be that bad. I don't even think you would have to add too too much more. I'd personally like to see what Kessel or Phaneuf could get us from Edmonton. I hate our core so gutting it to bring in something from EDM would be very nice in my eyes. We have a enough of a veteran presence on our team that the young players could fit into.

 

[TeamBester]

Bozak and Gardiner for Ror is a huge overpayment!

For a good young two way center? not really.

Also completely ignores the cap.

We would be sending more money the other way, it works for us. I'm sure they they have the space.

We would also be trading Lupul for less cap, ideally.

 

[TeamBester]

A Hall for JVR type of deal wouldn't even be that bad. I don't even think you would have to add too too much more. I'd personally like to see what Kessel or Phaneuf could get us from Edmonton. I hate our core so gutting it to bring in something from EDM would be very nice in my eyes. We have a enough of a veteran presence on our team that the young players could fit into.

Yup don't think the + would be huge, maybe Percy + something small.

 

[Delicious Dangles*]

It would be beyond stupid to blow up a team that you have realistically only seen under one coach, who historically creates the same problems with teams that we are experiencing.

 

[91Stammer*]

I wouldn't say I wouldn't trade kessel but I would say I wouldn't trade him first from that line. I would trade JVR for a center that protects kessels deficiencies.

I would send a huge message by trading Kessel first, "keep up your play whole year or pack your bags and get ready to shipped out anytime."

 

[Stephen]

I think Kessel's contract is okay, because of Kane's contract. (a couple million per year less cap hit makes it okay)

The trouble is Toews at 19 was better than anything the Leafs have at any age today.

Leafs aren't grooming anyone to make a Toews-Kane combination on the team, they just don't have anyone with that ability in the system.

Either they reset and go with a younger group of players. 2 years ago no one would have even considered a Kessel for Johansen trade situation that was anything but rip-off, and yet today I doubt Kessel would get you Johansen. If you could do a struggling Johansen for Kessel, in a reset for long term, I'd definitely consider it. The crystal ball requirement is the issue, kind of like the Kessel deal in the beginning 3 unknown picks for a relatively known Kessel.

Another reset option would be to do deal for a 1st. line center (I'm not sold on Staal), but keeping Kessel and bringing in a 1st. line center is going to cost, IMO, two core players from the team, and at this point I don't think Gardiner holds a tonne of value. Benching a 21 year old defender is one thing benching a 24 year old defender is really dramatically different.

If you're getting a 1st. line center from a team, chances are that other team thinks they have two 1st. line centers.

Which 2nd. line center on the Leafs has the most value in a trade? Remember the Leafs don't have a 19 year old center like Toews or a 20 year old Johansen to dangle here.

I'd rather move Kessel, while others believe he's an untouchable.

Corsi says this team's success (the teeny bit it has had) is a mirage, if we want to buy into stats, this team needs a major overhaul. Of course we could just say those stats are bogus and carry on.

If management has decided that they don't like the character in the room, the personalities, the players in the core and the long term prognosis is to blow things up as a lot of us have determined - let's face it, a 10-1-1 run is rather pointless when this team can easily find itself 2-12 a month later - Kessel, Phaneuf, Lupul, etc. all have to go.

The first objective should be to shed cap space and accumulate as many quality assets as possible to arm yourself to surround current prospects with and to make future deals. If we got a Johansen type player from a couple of years who hasn't blossomed, that would be a massive step forward.

 

[Stephen]

I wouldn't say I wouldn't trade kessel but I would say I wouldn't trade him first from that line. I would trade JVR for a center that protects kessels deficiencies.

Is the trouble of living with Kessel's deficiencies even worth it? It'd be one thing if he came into camp every year and tried to fix aspects of his game like you see with John Tavares, but he just comes in and does the same thing year after year knowing full well he and his group is going to crash and burn.

 

[Cor]

Kessel's offense is completely wiped out by the lack of defense AND then some.

Having Kessel playing as much as he does, hurts our team.


It's not an opinion, or a theory, it's a fact.

 

[613Leafer]

Kessel's offense is completely wiped out by the lack of defense AND then some.

Having Kessel playing as much as he does, hurts our team.


It's not an opinion, or a theory, it's a fact.

Yep. And you could argue that Kessel just needs an elite two-way centre to play with... but does an elite two-way centre need a player like Kessel alongside them to be effective? No.

So ultimately, what's more valuable? A ~60-70 point two-way centre who is effective pretty much regardless of his wingers or the type of minutes he gets, or an 80+ point winger who is only effective if given heavily protected minutes and/or elite two-way players to play with?

8 teams made the playoffs last year with zero players putting up 71+ points. Kopitar (exactly 70 points) was the highest scoring player between LA, St. Louis, Boston, Montreal, NYR, Columbus, Detroit, and Minnesota. IMO team defence is somehow still underrated, and one-dimensional scoring forwards are still overrated in general.

 

[Stephen]

Yep. And you could argue that Kessel just needs an elite two-way centre to play with... but does an elite two-way centre need a player like Kessel alongside them to be effective? No.

So ultimately, what's more valuable? A ~60-70 point two-way centre who is effective pretty much regardless of his wingers or the type of minutes he gets, or an 80+ point winger who is only effective if given heavily protected minutes and/or elite two-way players to play with?

8 teams made the playoffs last year with zero players putting up 71+ points. Kopitar (exactly 70 points) was the highest scoring player between LA, St. Louis, Boston, Montreal, NYR, Columbus, Detroit, and Minnesota. IMO team defence is somehow still underrated, and one-dimensional scoring forwards are still overrated in general.

If an elite two way center somehow materialized on this team, would you even want to overburden him with the task of babysitting Phil? Why not just build a great hard working first line that sets the tone for all the other lines? Why does Phil even need to be in this organization?

 

[Bomber0104]

Any team that has or is trying to develop a culture of excellence and winning would want nothing to do with Phil Kessel. (Boston)

Only a team that is utterly desperate or is looking for attention would actively pursue a player like Kessel. (Toronto)

Maybe we can sucker Edmonton or Vancouver into taking him.

 

[TeamBester]

If an elite two way center somehow materialized on this team, would you even want to overburden him with the task of babysitting Phil? Why not just build a great hard working first line that sets the tone for all the other lines? Why does Phil even need to be in this organization?

Phil has had the burden of carrying 2nd rate top liners in the other end for how many years now?

How about we get him some real 1st liners to play with?

But you think Phil doesn't deserve that?

 

[ULF_55]

Phil has had the burden of carrying 2nd rate top liners in the other end for how many years now?

How about we get him some real 1st liners to play with?

But you think Phil doesn't deserve that?

No I don't think he deserves anything.

He's making 10 million US dollars this year, and you think someone who won't put in effort in every zone deserves more?

 

[Daisy Jane]

Kessel's offense is completely wiped out by the lack of defense AND then some.

Having Kessel playing as much as he does, hurts our team.


It's not an opinion, or a theory, it's a fact.

Yep. And you could argue that Kessel just needs an elite two-way centre to play with... but does an elite two-way centre need a player like Kessel alongside them to be effective? No.

So ultimately, what's more valuable? A ~60-70 point two-way centre who is effective pretty much regardless of his wingers or the type of minutes he gets, or an 80+ point winger who is only effective if given heavily protected minutes and/or elite two-way players to play with?

8 teams made the playoffs last year with zero players putting up 71+ points. Kopitar (exactly 70 points) was the highest scoring player between LA, St. Louis, Boston, Montreal, NYR, Columbus, Detroit, and Minnesota. IMO team defence is somehow still underrated, and one-dimensional scoring forwards are still overrated in general.

and regardless of who the new coach is -that isn't going to change anything.

Bozak isn't "the best" centre and they get hemmed in a lot.

Kadri has been playing vs. the top lines recently and has been doing well , last night he plays with Kessel and he was not very good at all.

(shrug). i think what scares people is not having enough talent. (or they look at Boston who is struggling to find offense and they go "but we have Kessel, so we have offense that way."

I will argue to get the best talented players who can play consciously in their own zone. (not so much 200 ft player because I agree with Ferraro that's just become a big buzz word), but they at least don't cost you in all three zones -and then they are capable of putting the puck in the net.

If we are building from the net out.
I would say you keep Bernier and Reimer.
Polak can stay, Robidas can stay
Rielly can stay.

Make a decision on Franson. he can and will net something big, then bid on him in July.

everyone else on defense can go. (Yes, including Dion, ultimately)

On the Forward side
Santa can Stay
Winnik can stay
Komarov can stay
Panik can Stay
Kadri can Stay
Clarkson has to stay (though i argue -retain amillion and give him to New Jersey, I bet Lou bites on that).


make decisions on everyone else and get the returns.
considering how potent offensively they are, you could make pkgs and target teams who can't put the puck in the net.

then go from there.

 

[Stephen]

Phil has had the burden of carrying 2nd rate top liners in the other end for how many years now?

How about we get him some real 1st liners to play with?

But you think Phil doesn't deserve that?

As an example of Phil last night, he casually coughs up the puck at the opposing blueline on entry and then just allows the play to go back the other way, dogging the backcheck as the Flyers score.

On the second goal, he casually waits for the puck on the side boards while Matt Read steals the puck like candy from a baby, tic tac toe it's in the net.

On the Giroux goal Phil had the best seats in the house from where he was casually floating.

If I'm playing against the Leafs, the game plan is to run my entire offense towards Phil. Put a guy on him. Don't even need to hit him and the puck is yours. Starting a rush? Attack Phil's side of the ice. Cycling the puck in the Leafs zone for the nth time? Target Phil.

I don't know what kind of all time legend you'd need at center to cover up for Phil's weakness.

 

[johnny_rudeboy]

Phil has had the burden of carrying 2nd rate top liners in the other end for how many years now?

How about we get him some real 1st liners to play with?

But you think Phil doesn't deserve that?

Deserve? He have played to his own strength since he got here. Never for a minute has he bought in to what ever system the rest of the guys are trying to play. Kessel deserves nothing. He scored his goals and he got his pay check, the only thing he really care about.

 

[Daisy Jane]

Phil has had the burden of carrying 2nd rate top liners in the other end for how many years now?

How about we get him some real 1st liners to play with?

But you think Phil doesn't deserve that?

Crosby has been playing with people who would argue aren't "real 1st liners" or "worthy" to play with him for ages. (he doesn't always play with Malkin).

Sundin had to play with Jonas freaking Hoglund for most of his career.

You play with the hand your dealt with, and make sure your play is up to snuff.

No I don't think he deserves anything.

He's making 10 million US dollars this year, and you think someone who won't put in effort in every zone deserves more?

or that.