Proposal: Yes or No: Hit the reset button on this team

[cookie]

Weren't the Wilson and Carlyle hirings supposed to instill a kind of defensive purpose to the team's play? They were known as defensive coaches when they were hired.

A new coach won't do much better than what Carlyle has done with the group. When you have Phil Kessel playing 20 minutes, you essentially have 20 minutes worth of 4v5 play if you're hemmed in your zone. He's a good offensive weapon, but limited in every which way in the other departments. For him to be useful and constructive piece, we'd need to acquire guys like Sharp, Hossa, Toews and change our defensive structure to get guys like Leddy, Keith, Seabrook, Hjalmarsson. We don't have those kinds of complementary players, hence why Kessel's time here will be wasted here. If we had acquired a guy like a rookie version of Brindamour or Toews for those 2x 1sts and second... we could actually be very well off....

Toews, Kadri, Bozak/Holland, McClement/Winnik/UFA

 

[Wafflewhipper]

I vote yes.

That's not because of a couple losses though. Having to do it was already shaping up just by being against the cap. This is nothing new to posts I have been making. The being against the cap is a opportunity to choose a direction we will be going in terms of certain players.

Franson has been having a good UFAgent year but we shouldn't try to afford him. I would not mind moving him and think he should have moved early as opposed to later on closer to the deadline.

I am glad Gardiner was sat out against the flyers' and I believe he has been good offensively but risky. He has alot to learn defensively though. I don't feel I have the patience to develop him any longer.

Jvr has been complacent on defensive assignments and could be traded for a good all round checking and scoring center to play with Kessel. Kessel I would not trade at this point.

Moving Jvr for the center would mean Bozak would have to be moved and if there is a market for lupul trade him also. Those are all very good offensive players teams should be interested in. The reason I would move them might be clear to some posters. I will briefly just say for others that, I understand the offensive losses but would want some coming back in return. The players coming back would fill some defensive needs would be my first consideration.

I like kadri in the 2 hole center going forward. We need a bigger center that can add what we need to protect Kessels defensive weakness. We can not continue rolling out a poor defensive first line though I don't think.

Yes I would have already been doing this before now. Straight up though I have a bias for a team to be above average to elite defensively as a group and do not have as much patience watching offensive players killing us on defense. So that's why I would have like the team to move players already.

Its time we dip into our defensive depth of Percy who fits and is cap friendly.

So yes it should be done and sooner the better with the eye on getting into better cap positioning. If Nonis can't do this or doesn't see it he will not last long afterwards anyways is my belief. You can't continue having a players that are below average defensively in high numbers like we have.

Winnik,Santorelli would be priority signings year end and the obvious others. Franson is priced out unless Phaneuf was moved. Its Franson or Phaneuf to my thinking.

Yes this team needs big changes and if they start happening it could see a drastic turn over and I would not flinch.

 

[PlietscherDassel]

why would Trading Kessel be a mistake?
Columbus traded Nash and they've looked better for it.

They looked better because of Bob, not just because Nash was gone, and they are 10 points behind the Leafs right now.We will have to wait and see how good they are with everyone healthy and then take a look if they are good because they removed Nash or because they did other things better than us.
However, i agree that it was a good move to change the off the ice leadership group in Columbus by trading the captain of a not functioning team. But if that is your point our Nash is Phaneuf (+Lupul) and not Kessel.

 

[613Leafer]

I bet most of the people who adamantly don't want to consider any trades where we move Kessel, JVR, or whoever, were also the people who were against trading Luke Schenn, but immediately jumped on the band-wagon for how happy they were with that trade.

The thing that gets ignored is that you get a trade RETURN. Some people just focus on that player being removed from the lineup, without actually looking at the big picture, what we get in return, and what the trade addresses.

Here are where the Leafs ranked over the past three years in a few categories:
GAA: 17th, 26th, 24th
Even-Strength GAA: 25th, 23rd, 26th
Shots Against Average: 27th, 30th, 27th

Goals/Game: 6th, 14th, 1st

So we've averaged being in the top 10 for offensive production, but being in the bottom 5-10 for defensive metrics like goals against and shots against.

If you go by possession stats, shots against stats, etc, our top forward line is among the leagues WORST in terms of defensive ability. We're not talking slightly below average, we're talking right near the bottom.

If we can sell high on one of these high producing forwards, and get a piece of good value to help address those shots against/goals against issues, why would that be a bad thing? Why would selling from an area of strength to address an area of weakness be considered a bad thing?

Especially given that growth internally from Nylander and Rielly should help sustain solid offence for us going forward. Plus when you move guys up the lineup and give them more offensive minutes, their offence tends to increase. So I don't think the loss offensively would be nearly as large as some people think. We were a high producing team before JVR got here for example, so why couldn't we still be a high producing team if he were traded now?

 

[Daisy Jane]

They looked better because of Bob, not just because Nash was gone, and they are 10 points behind the Leafs right now.We will have to wait and see how good they are with everyone healthy and then take a look if they are good because they removed Nash or because they did other things better than us.
However, i agree that it was a good move to change the off the ice leadership group in Columbus by trading the captain of a not functioning team. But if that is your point our Nash is Phaneuf (+Lupul) and not Kessel.

Well with Nash, he was also the captain -but the very best player.
everything offensive (no pun intended) runs through Kessel. while we have amazing depth this season, when were pushing for agoal, or the first power play unit is going to feature Kessel.

Kessel is the kind of player that you need a lot of good worker bees so when he is all off doing his thing - (ie: not being gritty, not being phsyical, not doing what needs to be in game in, game out), it's not OH MY GOD, REALLY? it's "oooohh... nice!" the thing is -we don't have those players, and by the time weget them , Kessel is pretty much useless to us.

I have been firm, that in all honesty, I'd like to remove most of the Burke Era players because there is a certain attitude or what not with them.

416Leafer is right. we have assets at market controllable prices. (it will be hard because all have limited no trade/move clauses), to just get that era out and create a new programme here.

i will forever maintain, i wish the Leafs didn't make the playoffs in the shortened season or that the Bruins pummelled them in 5 games (as they should have). I strongly believe that Nonis and everyone would have been removed (as they should have), Clarkson wouldn't have been signed, Bolland wouldn't have been traded for, and you could have traded a 5.5 Kessel, and a 6.5 Dion easily, vs. a 8 team only 8x8 Kessel, and a 12 team only 7.5 million Dion.

 

[MapleLeafs9]

Going from the thread "Can the Leafs win the Atlantic division? (10-1-1 last 12 games)" to "Should we blow up the Leafs?" after 2 losses in a row. LOL

Leafs Nation everybody.

 

[miff27]

Going from the thread "Can the Leafs win the Atlantic division? (10-1-1 last 12 games)" to "Should we blow up the Leafs?" after 2 losses in a row. LOL

Leafs Nation everybody.


Lol...I agree.....trade the core trade the core.....the sky is falling...ridiculous....Leaf fans on all the different boards are always the same......maybe Leaf fans should be the one's traded.


From a Leaf fan of 57 years....

 

[thewave]

Going from the thread "Can the Leafs win the Atlantic division? (10-1-1 last 12 games)" to "Should we blow up the Leafs?" after 2 losses in a row. LOL

Leafs Nation everybody.


Lol...I agree.....trade the core trade the core.....the sky is falling...ridiculous....Leaf fans on all the different boards are always the same......maybe Leaf fans should be the one's traded.


From a Leaf fan of 57 years....

They don't need to trade the core. They do need to end Bozak Clarkson Lupul though. They need a Simmonds, Staal and a Lucic

 

[Daisy Jane]

Going from the thread "Can the Leafs win the Atlantic division? (10-1-1 last 12 games)" to "Should we blow up the Leafs?" after 2 losses in a row. LOL

Leafs Nation everybody.

1: the "Can the Leafs win the Atlantic Division thread wasn't created by a Leafs fan.

2: most people wanted the core gone before the season started, and for some (I'll put me in it) is just trying to make hay while thesun shines with this roster and while I think we can squeak in, is that really the best thing long term?

3: LOLOLOL Leafs Nation everyone isn't it funny how a fan base is sick and tired of watching their team perform like they don't think effort and hard work is involved? that a during that 10-1-1 stretch a good chunk of those games, regardless of the score, was because of great goaltending, and we exploded for goals against and for a few of them the Leafs were completely and utterly out worked

4: LOLOL isn't it exciting that the Leafs either get blown out or blow out their compeition. I wonder when teams start tightening up and getting things more secure how many blow outs we get and how much more blown out happens to us?

5: LOLOL isn't it crazy how Leaf Fans act like fans, when the team wins they're happy, and when the team loses, they are cranky, it's not like any other fan base in existence does this

 

[Kingstonian84*]

Weren't the Wilson and Carlyle hirings supposed to instill a kind of defensive purpose to the team's play? They were known as defensive coaches when they were hired.

A new coach won't do much better than what Carlyle has done with the group. When you have Phil Kessel playing 20 minutes, you essentially have 20 minutes worth of 4v5 play if you're hemmed in your zone. He's a good offensive weapon, but limited in every which way in the other departments. For him to be useful and constructive piece, we'd need to acquire guys like Sharp, Hossa, Toews and change our defensive structure to get guys like Leddy, Keith, Seabrook, Hjalmarsson. We don't have those kinds of complementary players, hence why Kessel's time here will be wasted here. If we had acquired a guy like a rookie version of Brindamour or Toews for those 2x 1sts and second... we could actually be very well off....

Toews, Kadri, Bozak/Holland, McClement/Winnik/UFA

Wilson actually had this team playing not bad defensive hockey, leafs in his final season gave up 27 shots against... Wilsons undoing was lacklustre goaltending and crappy penalty killing. I'm not going to sit here and say Wilson was a prize coach by any stretch but he is far more suited to run this team then Carlyle is, Wilson loves up tempo speed possession hockey, Carlyle is a grinder coach who insists his defencmen dump it in and forwards cycle it as well in the d zone be passive and box players out.

The reason we don't have those types of players is because we give away our picks and we don't always draft smart either. I think we have some nice pieces coming up with gauthier growing into a 2 way centre, nylander is lighting it up in the Swedish league, Reilly has been playing steady hockey and has lots of room to grow, couple that with this years 1st rounder... It's not perfect but I feel we are moving in the right direction.

For the love of God tho fire Carlyle.

 

[Kingstonian84*]

They don't need to trade the core. They do need to end Bozak Clarkson Lupul though. They need a Simmonds, Staal and a Lucic

And guess how those players got to be on their teams? With the exception of Simmons... The other two were drafted, my point leafs need to stop pisng away draft picks.

 

[yubbers]

Going from the thread "Can the Leafs win the Atlantic division? (10-1-1 last 12 games)" to "Should we blow up the Leafs?" after 2 losses in a row. LOL

Leafs Nation everybody.

Watching the same nonsense year after year and thinking nothing needs to change?

Leafs nation everybody.

 

[Beleafer19]

1: the "Can the Leafs win the Atlantic Division thread wasn't created by a Leafs fan.

2: most people wanted the core gone before the season started, and for some (I'll put me in it) is just trying to make hay while thesun shines with this roster and while I think we can squeak in, is that really the best thing long term?

3: LOLOLOL Leafs Nation everyone isn't it funny how a fan base is sick and tired of watching their team perform like they don't think effort and hard work is involved? that a during that 10-1-1 stretch a good chunk of those games, regardless of the score, was because of great goaltending, and we exploded for goals against and for a few of them the Leafs were completely and utterly out worked

4: LOLOL isn't it exciting that the Leafs either get blown out or blow out their compeition. I wonder when teams start tightening up and getting things more secure how many blow outs we get and how much more blown out happens to us?

5: LOLOL isn't it crazy how Leaf Fans act like fans, when the team wins they're happy, and when the team loses, they are cranky, it's not like any other fan base in existence does this

Well said!

 

[613Leafer]

Going from the thread "Can the Leafs win the Atlantic division? (10-1-1 last 12 games)" to "Should we blow up the Leafs?" after 2 losses in a row. LOL

Leafs Nation everybody.

Maybe you should quote specific posters that are flip-flopping? Because I don't think there are very many.

It's more that there are (generalization) two "sides". There seem to be the people who are confident in this core and want to see us "go for it" by not selling pending UFAs and tweaking around this core, and then other people who think this organization could use some major changes, and are willing to sell off major pieces even if it means (potentially) taking a step back for a year.

DURING the winning streak for example, I argued in a few threads (inluding those you mentioned above) about why Carlyle wasn't a good coach, how our team was riding hot goaltending/offence but still playing a weak overall game, that we could should "sell high" on a player from our top line, etc.

I think most posters are fairly consistent with their message.

 

[GordieHoweHatTrick]

Here's a novel idea, don't start a negative thread after every loss and don't pump tires after a couple good games.

Its a long season with many ups and down so even those with the biggest biases are bound to be right every now and then.

Ps, nobody cares if you were right about this, or that

 

[yubbers]

Do you not see the pattern of this weak core? They put up points. Enough so that they pretty much make it impossible for a GM to make moves at the deadline because they're in the hunt. then things get real. And or core has proven over and over they can't compete at that level.

It's literally like half of you keep watching the same movie over and over expecting old yeller not to die at the end. It's the same movie!

 

[Trapper]

Going from the thread "Can the Leafs win the Atlantic division? (10-1-1 last 12 games)" to "Should we blow up the Leafs?" after 2 losses in a row. LOL

Leafs Nation everybody.

If this core is so great, make the playoffs every year now. Do that for me. We should be talking about what pieces to add for a cup run, not what bottom 6 pieces need to be added for a wild card spot. This team has 5 years to do something now with the core we have locked up. No more excuses and no more missing the playoffs. The end.

 

[Wafflewhipper]

Well with Nash, he was also the captain -but the very best player.
everything offensive (no pun intended) runs through Kessel. while we have amazing depth this season, when were pushing for agoal, or the first power play unit is going to feature Kessel.

Kessel is the kind of player that you need a lot of good worker bees so when he is all off doing his thing - (ie: not being gritty, not being phsyical, not doing what needs to be in game in, game out), it's not OH MY GOD, REALLY? it's "oooohh... nice!" the thing is -we don't have those players, and by the time weget them , Kessel is pretty much useless to us.

I have been firm, that in all honesty, I'd like to remove most of the Burke Era players because there is a certain attitude or what not with them.

416Leafer is right. we have assets at market controllable prices. (it will be hard because all have limited no trade/move clauses), to just get that era out and create a new programme here.

i will forever maintain, i wish the Leafs didn't make the playoffs in the shortened season or that the Bruins pummelled them in 5 games (as they should have). I strongly believe that Nonis and everyone would have been removed (as they should have), Clarkson wouldn't have been signed, Bolland wouldn't have been traded for, and you could have traded a 5.5 Kessel, and a 6.5 Dion easily, vs. a 8 team only 8x8 Kessel, and a 12 team only 7.5 million Dion.

I wouldn't say I wouldn't trade kessel but I would say I wouldn't trade him first from that line. I would trade JVR for a center that protects kessels deficiencies.

 

[613Leafer]

Here's a novel idea, don't start a negative thread after every loss and don't pump tires after a couple good games.

Its a long season with many ups and down so even those with the biggest biases are bound to be right every now and then.

I don't mind it, as long as the argument is based off of the whole season, previous seasons, etc, and not just the previous game or two.

To me it doesn't matter when a thread is made, so much as what the threads argument is based on (large sample size vs knee-jerk reaction that ignores the larger sample size).

 

[Warden of the North]

I bet most of the people who adamantly don't want to consider any trades where we move Kessel, JVR, or whoever, were also the people who were against trading Luke Schenn, but immediately jumped on the band-wagon for how happy they were with that trade.

The thing that gets ignored is that you get a trade RETURN. Some people just focus on that player being removed from the lineup, without actually looking at the big picture, what we get in return, and what the trade addresses.

Here are where the Leafs ranked over the past three years in a few categories:
GAA: 17th, 26th, 24th
Even-Strength GAA: 25th, 23rd, 26th
Shots Against Average: 27th, 30th, 27th

Goals/Game: 6th, 14th, 1st

So we've averaged being in the top 10 for offensive production, but being in the bottom 5-10 for defensive metrics like goals against and shots against.

If you go by possession stats, shots against stats, etc, our top forward line is among the leagues WORST in terms of defensive ability. We're not talking slightly below average, we're talking right near the bottom.

If we can sell high on one of these high producing forwards, and get a piece of good value to help address those shots against/goals against issues, why would that be a bad thing? Why would selling from an area of strength to address an area of weakness be considered a bad thing?

Especially given that growth internally from Nylander and Rielly should help sustain solid offence for us going forward. Plus when you move guys up the lineup and give them more offensive minutes, their offence tends to increase. So I don't think the loss offensively would be nearly as large as some people think. We were a high producing team before JVR got here for example, so why couldn't we still be a high producing team if he were traded now?

No one is saying keep everyone. I'd happily trade Kessel, JvR, Phaneuf, even Nylander or Rielly if the return was worth it.

I am against "clean slating" it, well, for one because its unrealistic, and two, I like a lot of our pieces. Kessel has his place at his salary. Hes an elite offensive talent in the league, and those playes are always needed and worth it.

A new coach is needed. Ask Canucks fans about that. Outdated dinosaurs of coaching can and do ruin clubs.

 

[GordieHoweHatTrick]

I don't mind it, as long as the argument is based off of the whole season, previous seasons, etc, and not just the previous game or two.

To me it doesn't matter when a thread is made, so much as what the threads argument is based on (large sample size vs knee-jerk reaction that ignores the larger sample size).

I'm on the same page as you but its difficult to have an objective argument when emotions are factoring into people's opinions. The timing of the thread is clearly designed to bring about a desired outcome.

 

[Al14]

What is it that some of you people don't understand. This team has been a bubble team for a few years and is still a bubble team. THIS CORE WILL NOT WIN THE CUP. Accept it and stop tricking yourself.

 

[Pyromaniac3]

I would evaluate this team under a different coach. The coach is dragging this team down and we have lost plenty of good players because of this.

 

[Al14]

Watching the same nonsense year after year and thinking nothing needs to change?

Leafs nation everybody.

 

[Trapper]

No one is saying keep everyone. I'd happily trade Kessel, JvR, Phaneuf, even Nylander or Rielly if the return was worth it.

I am against "clean slating" it, well, for one because its unrealistic, and two, I like a lot of our pieces. Kessel has his place at his salary. Hes an elite offensive talent in the league, and those playes are always needed and worth it.

A new coach is needed. Ask Canucks fans about that. Outdated dinosaurs of coaching can and do ruin clubs.

Right now the goal of this organization should be to stop missing the playoffs. Forget about the Cup for now. Forget the hot streaks, cold streaks, winning/losing streaks. 82 games, playoffs. I'm not talking about making it one year and miss the next. No more missing with Kessel/Phaneuf/Bozak/JVR/Franson etc. if we are constantly worse than 8-10 teams, who cares if it is a lot worse or marginally worse. No one should be excused and everyone should be evaluated on pros/cons. I believe Shanny/Dubas are doing that this year. Find the identity,identify how you want the team to play game in, game out and decide that every player brought into this organization compete and play a 200 foot game.