Proposal: Yes or No: Hit the reset button on this team

[TeamBester]

Ideally, Leafs trade Lupul for a good two way top6 player to play with Phil. That would be my first step.

You want to talk about futile? Flip flopping Lupul and JVR, that's futile, but hey GO RANDY!!!

 

[Stats01]

Doing a reset has to be done from top to bottom if you want to do a true "reset".

The Leafs have notoriously just re-tooled and always brought in free agents and built their teams in the wrong way.

Any team that the Leafs have had, they've never had the patience to actually develop players and create their own unique system. They've always based that off of whatever player they acquire.

Beauchemin, Komisarek, Orr & Armstrong are signed and now they're a tough team.
Phil Kessel was acquired and now they're a rush team.

They always change their style of play based on the players they acquire.

They need to establish a way that they want to play and stick with it, then you have player development draft the right players for the system, sign the right free agents and have the right coaches. Until you do that, you are constantly spinning your tires and trying to figure out how the team is going to play on a nightly basis.

They need to establish a way to develop a team and IMO that's why they brought in Dubas. All Nonis has done is re-tool every year, signing free agents for a quick fix. It hasn't worked and all we're doing is spinning our tires. This team could make the playoffs but this is not a Cup contender, I don't care about getting to the 1st or even the 2nd round of the playoffs I want a Cup. Nonis and Carlyle need to be the first ones to go if we are truly prepared for a re-set. Put Dubas in charge and let him start putting his own player development system in place. Then he can go out and get his own coach the way he wants this team to play which I assume is a more possession style. I'm making it sound a lot easier than it is but this franchise needs to stop trying to cut corners and take the mind-set of a true re-set, that re-set starts at the top. Nonis has been here long enough and the results have been extremely poor.

 

[Stephen]

I think we should reset and get rid of Kessel. The first line is a **** show and it's seriously useless having to deal with Phil's shortcomings. He's so limited as a player it's a complete liability. Top it all off he doesn't even score that much!

 

[TeamBester]

Only 1st line player we have and its his fault.

 

[Stats01]

I think we should reset and get rid of Kessel. The first line is a **** show and it's seriously useless having to deal with Phil's shortcomings. He's so limited as a player it's a complete liability. Top it all off he doesn't even score that much!

Yeah it's all Phil's fault :shake head Our D is atrocious and yet Phil can't score enough....Mind boggling post. If we actually had a real captain that actually knew how to play his position and not take shifts/games off we'd be better off. Dion, Gardiner, **** the whole D core needs to be blown up outside of Rielly. So sick giving up 30-35+ shots a game. It's ridiculous.

 

[Kingstonian84*]

This isn't NHL 15, you can't just hit the "reset button" and trade virtually everyone on this team, sorry but it doesn't work that way. In this day and age with the cap and many teams near or at it, it becomes a lot more complex.

Lets get real here as great as Kessel is for example he's making too much $$$ for teams to take that on long term, odds of him being traded are slim to nil given were still in a playoff spot. Now if somehow we are officially out of it, sure you could trade him but the amount of teams looking for a skilled one way winger isn't that many and even then you won't get a kings ransom in return for him either.

The most realistic thing is things need to change at the top, what I mean is the mandate shouldn't just be "make the playoffs", it's incredibly short sighted and we're giving up too many assets in a deseperate attempt to get there, not to mention spending right up to the cap limit. Realisticly, the manadate needs to change, its' all fine and dandy to shoot for the playoffs but there has to be a long term vision for this team, one that includes more then simply "making the playoffs" on a year by year basis.

Shanahan was a smart call, I admire the signing and so far he's preached patience which is a thing that the Leafs have no true concept of, I think slowly that approach is beginning to change. What needs to happen next is he needs to fire Nonis and Carlyle, these guys just aren't he;ping the team and havent been for ages... any fool can see that. As for who coaches? I think managment needs to find a coach that wants to play the style THEY envision, right now its a puck possession team, fair enough but Randy is the 100% opposite of that, fire him.. they really shouldnt be waiting around for Babcock to become available its' arrogant and foolish assumptions by doing that, hire a coach that believes strongly in puck possession and hire him as an interim, if Babcock suddenly becomes available in the fofseason then open discussions with him.

Next up, they need to unload a few players to clear up cap space going forward and bring back draft picks that are sorely lacking. Who are those players? Lupul, Franson, Bozak, Reimer.... all 4 of them need to go! That right there next year frees up 11 million in cap space and nets us several draft picks we can use at this years draft...

As for free agency, stay as far away from that mess as possible, all those players are overpaid and really not a smart idea to blow money that way. As for the players that should be resigned? Bernier, Kadri, Santo, Winnik (as long as his demands are reasonable).

Drafting? We still have a bad need for skill in this organziation, use the 1st rounder to draft another stud, bury him in the minors next year and don't call him up for a year... time to be paitnet with our prospects, let them learn and grow instead of rushing them up

 

[Kingstonian84*]

I think we should reset and get rid of Kessel. The first line is a **** show and it's seriously useless having to deal with Phil's shortcomings. He's so limited as a player it's a complete liability. Top it all off he doesn't even score that much!

Do you hear how much you contradict yourself here? You claim hes a horrible player yet in the next breath you want him traded, if he's as horrible as you claim then surely he doesn't get picked up and we don't get anything for him, OR is it he's a good player and you feel he get net us a pretty good return, pick a lane and stay in it.

As for scoring, he's had 30 plus goals 5 or so years, the past 2 seasons over 80- points and hes on pace to repeat that... scoring isn't Kessel's issue.

I agree, he does have shortcomings... the biggest being his off ice attidude, his fear of being hit, inabilty to play team defense etc.

 

[Stats01]

This isn't NHL 15, you can't just hit the "reset button" and trade virtually everyone on this team, sorry but it doesn't work that way. In this day and age with the cap and many teams near or at it, it becomes a lot more complex.

Lets get real here as great as Kessel is for example he's making too much $$$ for teams to take that on long term, odds of him being traded are slim to nil given were still in a playoff spot. Now if somehow we are officially out of it, sure you could trade him but the amount of teams looking for a skilled one way winger isn't that many and even then you won't get a kings ransom in return for him either.

The most realistic thing is things need to change at the top, what I mean is the mandate shouldn't just be "make the playoffs", it's incredibly short sighted and we're giving up too many assets in a deseperate attempt to get there, not to mention spending right up to the cap limit. Realisticly, the manadate needs to change, its' all fine and dandy to shoot for the playoffs but there has to be a long term vision for this team, one that includes more then simply "making the playoffs" on a year by year basis.

Shanahan was a smart call, I admire the signing and so far he's preached patience which is a thing that the Leafs have no true concept of, I think slowly that approach is beginning to change. What needs to happen next is he needs to fire Nonis and Carlyle, these guys just aren't he;ping the team and havent been for ages... any fool can see that. As for who coaches? I think managment needs to find a coach that wants to play the style THEY envision, right now its a puck possession team, fair enough but Randy is the 100% opposite of that, fire him.. they really shouldnt be waiting around for Babcock to become available its' arrogant and foolish assumptions by doing that, hire a coach that believes strongly in puck possession and hire him as an interim, if Babcock suddenly becomes available in the fofseason then open discussions with him.

Next up, they need to unload a few players to clear up cap space going forward and bring back draft picks that are sorely lacking. Who are those players? Lupul, Franson, Bozak, Reimer.... all 4 of them need to go! That right there next year frees up 11 million in cap space and nets us several draft picks we can use at this years draft...

As for free agency, stay as far away from that mess as possible, all those players are overpaid and really not a smart idea to blow money that way. As for the players that should be resigned? Bernier, Kadri, Santo, Winnik (as long as his demands are reasonable).

Drafting? We still have a bad need for skill in this organziation, use the 1st rounder to draft another stud, bury him in the minors next year and don't call him up for a year... time to be paitnet with our prospects, let them learn and grow instead of rushing them up

when it comes to coaching, screw the "big name" coach, get a coach that actually is a fit with the roster. Carlyle was never a fit to begin with but we got him because the Leafs job is looked upon as the most coveted or biggest in the hockey world. We need to ignore getting a coach based on name/resume we need a coach that will work with Dubas and Shanahan and coach this team relative to how it is built. If Dubas wants a puck possession team then go out and get the coach that you think implements the best puck possession system whether it be in junior or the NHL I don't care. But hiring a guy because he's a big name and only big name coaches can apart of the Leafs is a fallacy. I still remember Burke huffing and puffing about us being "Big Blue" and all that stuff. What a bunch of baloney. Yes the Leafs job is coveted and very important but you don't cut off your nose despite your face and hire a big name coach that doesn't relate to the roster just because you think only big name coaches can coach here. Would be nice to have an upcoming young modern coach along with our new upcoming young and modern GM.

 

[Stephen]

Do you hear how much you contradict yourself here? You claim hes a horrible player yet in the next breath you want him traded, if he's as horrible as you claim then surely he doesn't get picked up and we don't get anything for him, OR is it he's a good player and you feel he get net us a pretty good return, pick a lane and stay in it.

As for scoring, he's had 30 plus goals 5 or so years, the past 2 seasons over 80- points and hes on pace to repeat that... scoring isn't Kessel's issue.

I agree, he does have shortcomings... the biggest being his off ice attidude, his fear of being hit, inabilty to play team defense etc.

Phil is a horribly soft and flawed one dimensional player whose production doesn't come anywhere close to justifying his presence as an $8 million man on this team. The guy is a 30+ goal scorer. To justify his cowardly soft one dimensional play, he probably needs to be scoring 70 per season.

 

[Snacks Kassian]

Kessel, Lupul, Clarkson, and Phanuef can gtfo. They are all declining assests and won't be in their prime when the younger guys are peaking. Phil is too soft, won't sell out to do whatever it takes to win. Dump em all, time for a re tool.

 

[thewave]

Kessel, Lupul, Clarkson, and Phanuef can gtfo. They are all declining assests and won't be in their prime when the younger guys are peaking. Phil is too soft, won't sell out to do whatever it takes to win. Dump em all, time for a re tool.

Simple plan. Simple is good when you have a market for them willing to pay well.

 

[Kingstonian84*]

Phil is a horribly soft and flawed one dimensional player whose production doesn't come anywhere close to justifying his presence as an $8 million man on this team. The guy is a 30+ goal scorer. To justify his cowardly soft one dimensional play, he probably needs to be scoring 70 per season.

Then based on your logic you wont have any takers for him, so why would you say trade him then? Sorry but sometimes people really need to truly think things through before blurting things out.

I'm not denying Kessel is incredibly soft and lazy, he's all those things and likely always weill be, sad but true. He is talented though... he has elite speed, one of the quickest releases in the game and is an incredibly underrated playamaker but yea he's not worth $8M a season.

There aren't too many teams right now looking for a pure goal scoring winger, and even fewer would be able to fit his contract under their cap.... I'd say Edmonton might want him, maybe a team like Florida but the return wouldn't be as much as a lot of people think it would be... it'd be something like a 1st rounder, decent propsect, mid ranged roster player (cap dump even) that's his value IMO.

 

[Kingstonian84*]

Kessel, Lupul, Clarkson, and Phanuef can gtfo. They are all declining assests and won't be in their prime when the younger guys are peaking. Phil is too soft, won't sell out to do whatever it takes to win. Dump em all, time for a re tool.

Again its not as easy as your making it out to be, you can't just snap your fingers and say "gone" with these guys, you have to look at who out there wants them and who out there can also fit them unde their cap.

Kessel I've said before is a hard guy to move, that contract is not great and I don't think many teams are looking for a one dimensional player. Lupul? There's takers I'd think, he'd be a good fit for a team looking to make a late playoff push, his problem is his contract, granted he only has 2 years left. Dion? Same thing he's an OK or mediocre 1st pairing guy but hes not worth anywhere near what hes making and again be a hard sell for most teams, Edmonton would be a team though that could badly use a guy like him. Clarkson? Another tough one, I feel we're gonna have to eat a good chunk of his salary to make it work, I think if we can eat 50% of his contract, 2.6M Clarkson becomes appealing to a lot of teams.

 

[Snacks Kassian]

Again its not as easy as your making it out to be, you can't just snap your fingers and say "gone" with these guys, you have to look at who out there wants them and who out there can also fit them unde their cap.

Kessel I've said before is a hard guy to move, that contract is not great and I don't think many teams are looking for a one dimensional player. Lupul? There's takers I'd think, he'd be a good fit for a team looking to make a late playoff push, his problem is his contract, granted he only has 2 years left. Dion? Same thing he's an OK or mediocre 1st pairing guy but hes not worth anywhere near what hes making and again be a hard sell for most teams, Edmonton would be a team though that could badly use a guy like him. Clarkson? Another tough one, I feel we're gonna have to eat a good chunk of his salary to make it work, I think if we can eat 50% of his contract, 2.6M Clarkson becomes appealing to a lot of teams.

I never said it would be easy, I wish it was. Addressing your other post, I would trade kessel straight up for edmontons first rounder. Franchise changing pick and a ton of cap relief.

 

[StringsAttached]

This team. What can be said what hasn't already been said?

We're in a good position but our play does not indicate our record. We've been outplayed many times this year. It's not sustainable.

This team will fall if it continues this way.

Management needs to choose a direction and stick with it but we're in quite the predicament now. We have the 6th best record in the East...can we really jeopardize that for a higher lottery pick? I highly doubt it.

We should have known what this team was since the start of the season when our play was poor and our record was indicative of our play and I am guilty of buying into the hype of our latest winning streak.

Just an absolute mess. Firing RC might be a good start but as I stated earlier in the season before buying into the hype; this is a flawed core.

-edit, I didn't vote because neither option seems plausible atm. We could make the playoffs but we won't win the cup. We could tank but may not even end up drafting top 5. Cluster****.

 

[s1r0ky]

I will say no right now. I think the development of Reilly and Kadri can only help this core get better and win more games. However if we miss the playoffs or have an early exit this season I might change my answer.

 

[Kingstonian84*]

I never said it would be easy, I wish it was. Addressing your other post, I would trade kessel straight up for edmontons first rounder. Franchise changing pick and a ton of cap relief.

Just did some researching and Edmonton currently has 17 million in cap space, so yes it's feasble they can fit kessel into their team. That being said, they already have hall, Eberle, rnh, yakupov on their team who play similar styles to kessel, do they really want or need another scoring winger? I mean yea if they offer up their 1st for kessel I'd probably pull the trigger too.

 

[Kingstonian84*]

This team. What can be said what hasn't already been said?

We're in a good position but our play does not indicate our record. We've been outplayed many times this year. It's not sustainable.

This team will fall if it continues this way.

Management needs to choose a direction and stick with it but we're in quite the predicament now. We have the 6th best record in the East...can we really jeopardize that for a higher lottery pick? I highly doubt it.

We should have known what this team was since the start of the season when our play was poor and our record was indicative of our play and I am guilty of buying into the hype of our latest winning streak.

Just an absolute mess. Firing RC might be a good start but as I stated earlier in the season before buying into the hype; this is a flawed core.



-edit, I didn't vote because neither option seems plausible atm. We could make the playoffs but we won't win the cup. We could tank but may not even end up drafting top 5. Cluster****.

Your right it's a flawed core... Goes right to the kessel trade imo, Burke goofed on it imo. First off you never build around a winger, it's an absurd idea and no team does it and succeeds by doing so. Secondly this team emulates kessel which is speed and skill but very little desire to win and just soft and easily to play against... Again that's what happens when you build around a soft one dimensional player. Second thing is giving up all kinds of draft picks and by doing so it has forced the leafs hand to go out and either overpay for guys or sign project fixer uppers which don't alwsys turn out well.

Again this all goes back to impatience with management and by that I mean the owners who issued out this absurd mandate of "just make the playoffs" I mean say what you want about nonis but he's an employee and he's told to follow orders or lose his jobs. If the owners coild stop being greedy and impatient here for a moment and learn that drafting is key to success then it would mean keeping oicks and not being forced to look outside of the organization to fulfill a need.

 

[Cor]

Trade Kessel and Bozak for quality NHL pieces in return.

We don't need picks and prospects. That's not the type of return we need.



This team can do a complete 180 by dealing Kessel and Bozak and getting the proper return.

 

[Kingstonian84*]

Trade Kessel and Bozak for quality NHL pieces in return.

We don't need picks and prospects. That's not the type of return we need.



This team can do a complete 180 by dealing Kessel and Bozak and getting the proper return.

We don't need picks or prospects since when? We have no 2nd rounders and I think we have up our 4th too. As for prospects.... Well outside of Nylander we have nothing substantial.... Yes we need picks and prospects.

 

[AuGsY]

I think we need more of a retool than a complete blow up:


-upgrade on Bozak at C(O'reilly?)
-trade one of JVR or Kessel, and replace with a more defensive minded top 6 forward
-sign another top 4 d-man that can actually play defense(ideally someone who isn't approaching 40)
-move Clarkson out for whatever we can get for him. We could really use the cap space next year.
-do whatever it takes to pry Babcock out of Detroit

 

[PlietscherDassel]

You don't improve a team by trading players just to trade them because you are frustrated. Trading Kessel would be a mistake unless you get a franchise D or a true first line center in return (probably won't happen). Bozak is not a first line center at all but a pretty servicable player for his cap hit. Similar things can be said about JVR, Polak and Komarov. I would only trade these players in a deal that clearly improves the team and not just to get rid of them.

A full rebuild would not work in Toronto because even though everyone asks for it neither fans nor the media would be patient enough and you just make more money in a market like Toronto be icing a mediocre team that at least theoretically could make the playoffs, therefore it won't happen anyways.

They should try to deal replaceable players with bad contracts like Phaneuf, Lupul, Clarkson, Gardiner, Robidas, and replace them with prospects/marlies. Then retool the D and get a new coach during the offseason. Not really satisfying, i know, but hitting the reset button would only worsen the situation without doing a full rebuild, which will not be a realistic option.

If we want to get a high draft pick in this or next years draft as part of a retooling process we can achieve that by waiting with retooling the D, trading Reimer for something plus a bad backup and playing Bernier less. I honestly think thats all it takes to tank with this team.

 

[Daisy Jane]

why would Trading Kessel be a mistake?
Columbus traded Nash and they've looked better for it.

 

[Trapper]

why would Trading Kessel be a mistake?
Columbus traded Nash and they've looked better for it.

Like everything else Daisy, you can't judge it as a mistake until you see the end result.
You just can't say trading Kessel is stupid until you see the return.
Most Leaf fans here seem to have no problem with the Oilers moving Hall. But OMG not Kessel.

 

[613Leafer]

I think an aggressive retool could be great for this team. Our top line has been incredibly bad defensively for years and years, under multiple coaches. It's becoming inexcusable.

Id be looking to sell high on ~2 of JVR/Bozak/Kessel, whose offence gives all of them good trade value, and sell high on Franson. Target young NHLers, almost ready NHL prospects, and even picks that are years away, but specifically focus on bringing in potential top pairing D and two-way forwards.

I dont think we'd even get much worse in the short-term, because IMO our top line has been so weak defensively, that they've overall contributed to us losing as many games as they've contributed to us winning. But the longterm benefits of better cap management, better rounded two-way players, etc could pay off quite well.

Id like an organization that focused on high hockey IQ, and employing a system that made every line difficult to play against for the opposition.