Would You Have Made The Duchene Trade?

Would You Have Made The Trade?


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    190

Knave

Registered User
Mar 6, 2007
21,650
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Ottawa
I don't buy into that trade being the disaster it is portrayed to be either.

What transpired last year from the day the trade was made to the ene of the season was not foreseeable. we still had some holes but i suspect the thinking was get to the tdl and assess the needs.

Lots of talk about giving methot away. He has played 45 out of about 125 games since he left ottawa and has openly spoken about this being his last season.

Turris has produced 60 points in 95 games for Nashville. Take away his hot 20 points in 20 games start in Nashville and he is playing at a 44 point pace. I liked Turris, i really did but he was clearly not a guy we should have signed to a 6 by 6 deal.

Someone refernced GMs being evaluated in hindsight and i completely agree with that. However the circumstances of the past year are so bloody bizarre that i'm not sure it's fair to evaluate PD on some of what has transpired.

Assessing Methot and Turris as players we needed to move on from .... i think time has shown they were the correct hockey decisions

Turris is in a different situation in Nashville. He didn't put up too much before he got to us in Arizona and now he's behind Ryan Johansen in Nashville most nights.

He tried to upgrade the center position.... fine...

His story is he traded away a non-protected first round for a slight upgrade at the center position and then a few months later he decided on a full rebuild. It's disastrous management.

Melnyk and Dorion have no idea what they're doing. It took a billion dollar lawsuit and a long dark tunnel with no end for Melnyk to understand he should have tried to work harder to find a deal with Ruddy or a buyer. Dorion has no f***ing idea how to look at a team and decide what needs to happen. It's bad.
 

JD1

Registered User
Sep 12, 2005
16,133
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Turris is in a different situation in Nashville. He didn't put up too much before he got to us in Arizona and now he's behind Ryan Johansen in Nashville most nights.

He tried to upgrade the center position.... fine...

His story is he traded away a non-protected first round for a slight upgrade at the center position and then a few months later he decided on a full rebuild. It's disastrous management.

Melnyk and Dorion have no idea what they're doing. It took a billion dollar lawsuit and a long dark tunnel with no end for Melnyk to understand he should have tried to work harder to find a deal with Ruddy or a buyer. Dorion has no ****ing idea how to look at a team and decide what needs to happen. It's bad.

Duchene has 83 points in 80 games in since Jan 1 2018 and is 24th in league scoring over that timeframe. In that same timeframe, Turris has 42 points in 72 games and is 160th in NHL scoring....incidentally Bobby Ryan has the exact same points / games played since January 1, 2018 as Turris. Bobby freaking Ryan! And we know how Ryan is thought of here.

If we just look at centers over that timespan, Duchene is 11th and Turris is 68th in scoring. I took those stats from NHL.cm and filtered on the C position without bothering to validate that every player listed was in fact a center.

Am I off base in thinking that is a little more than a "slight upgrade" ?

Personally, I'm thinking Dorion knew well what he was doing when he decided to move on from Turris and if you set aside your feelings for the man, it would be virtually impossible given these numbers to think moving on was anything other than a prudent move. Turris sucked so bad down the stretch last year, that I (and many others here) figured he was playing hurt. I was shocked when he went to the worlds.

Dorion didn't try to upgrade the center position....he upgraded the centre position....significantly
 
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HF Reader

Registered User
Jan 20, 2018
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Dorion made a risky decision and it has come back to bite him!

The hockey management of this team has been poor for quite some time now and precedes Dorion’s GM Days. Significant change must be made, including a change of ownership.
I don't discount that Dorion had some justification for the trade as youve noted, i was excited to have a player of this caliber, but i think sometimes you just have to walk away from the table and this is a case where he should have. We paid too much at the time and we definitely paid too much now that the team is in last and still no extension. We need to be more realistic about the type of players the Senators can afford when acquiring them. The Senators don't get to operate like the big guys. Duchene had to be signed for this deal to make sense, no ifs ands or buts to that imo.

I respect trying to upgrade on Turris, but we have a small budget and don't appear to be able to afford Duchene, so imo we should have just re-upped guys like Zibanejad and Turris because that's just reality for the Senators and the type of players they can actually afford. We don't get to upgrade unless we can acquire guys locked up to good deals already, its not a negative, its just operating with your reality. Its most definitely your reality when you've got as many bad contracts on the books from mismanagement.

I could live with the deal if he's signed, but if he isn't, which appears much more likely at this time, then there's nothing anyone could say to convince me it was the right move for the team, then or now. If we'd given up a rental type return at the deadline, sure, but we didnt.

I see a lot of the same people that argue a low strict budget is required because of the realities of the market, arguing that this Duchene trade was the right move. Which is it? Do we need to be realistic about who we can afford when we're acquiring players, or do we just throw caution to the wind like Dorion did and pay a kings ransom for about 430 days of an upgraded #1C before you finally accept you cant afford him and deal him for pennies on the dollar compared to what you paid. It was a dumb move for a team not equipped financially. They have another month or so to prove that wrong, but its looking pretty dire right now. They may have been able to sell this rebuild to the fan base if this trade hadn't been made and they still had their 1st and potentially Jack Hughes. That right there alone would have given fans a reason to tune in this hear instead of this complete wash of a season where we know the end goal is nothing but making it through until the nightmare is over.

You and I see things much the same way. We have two differences. First, I can't live with the deal even if he is signed as it would cost us Stone and who knows who else down the road. I prefer Stone. The next month will be interesting. Hard to ignore today's three scorers.

You and I agree that small market teams must be judicious in who they acquire, there is no room for error.


Our second difference is that I believe this epic collapse was hard to predict. I agree Dorion gambled, for the reasons I outlined in my first email. He (and sadly we) lost in a big way.
Duchene is an upgrade on the ice over Turris.

I'll look for your posts in the Dorion thread if we want to continue our mutual commiseration :)
 

God Says No

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Mar 16, 2012
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Duchene has 83 points in 80 games in since Jan 1 2018 and is 24th in league scoring over that timeframe. In that same timeframe, Turris has 42 points in 72 games and is 160th in NHL scoring....incidentally Bobby Ryan has the exact same points / games played since January 1, 2018 as Turris. Bobby freaking Ryan! And we know how Ryan is thought of here.

If we just look at centers over that timespan, Duchene is 11th and Turris is 68th in scoring. I took those stats from NHL.cm and filtered on the C position without bothering to validate that every player listed was in fact a center.

Am I off base in thinking that is a little more than a "slight upgrade" ?

Personally, I'm thinking Dorion knew well what he was doing when he decided to move on from Turris and if you set aside your feelings for the man, it would be virtually impossible given these numbers to think moving on was anything other than a prudent move. Turris sucked so bad down the stretch last year, that I (and many others here) figured he was playing hurt. I was shocked when he went to the worlds.

Dorion didn't try to upgrade the center position....he upgraded the centre position....significantly

Offensively I agree he is an upgrade. BUT I find Turris was way better defensively than Duchene. Now Turris isn't some Selke winning C, so that kind of tells you how bad Duchene is. The Duchene trade was a giant miscalculation by this team. All the signs were there that we were playing above our heads in Boucher's system. The only difference between the "good" year and the "bad" year was that Andy and Condon wasn't there to save our bacon.
 

Knave

Registered User
Mar 6, 2007
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Am I off base in thinking that is a little more than a "slight upgrade" ?

Who would be playing ahead of Turris in Ottawa if we didn't make the trade? He's got second line billing in Nashville behind Johansen.

It's a slight upgrade. We did not get better. We are much worse now. Is that all on Duchene? Nah. But I'm not seeing this major upgrade. We were a bubble playoff team with Turris. We missed by a considerable margin with Duchene and now we're fighting for a first overall... which we won't have because of that upgrade to be a better team.
 

Clayonator

Registered User
Aug 11, 2018
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Vancouver
I would have, however the package would have been around Ceci (Believe he was an ask from Colorado, as he was for Hall, and then for Drouin) I would have also kept Turris irrespective of his contractual status.
 

JD1

Registered User
Sep 12, 2005
16,133
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Who would be playing ahead of Turris in Ottawa if we didn't make the trade? He's got second line billing in Nashville behind Johansen.

It's a slight upgrade. We did not get better. We are much worse now. Is that all on Duchene? Nah. But I'm not seeing this major upgrade. We were a bubble playoff team with Turris. We missed by a considerable margin with Duchene and now we're fighting for a first overall... which we won't have because of that upgrade to be a better team.

2nd line billing to Johansen....and based on his productivity he will not hang on to that ….as I said....the one guy is 11th in center scoring over more than 1 year, the other guy is 68th...let that sink in....we as a team are not better but there are a variety of factors involved with that, at the centre position, we are in vastly better shape....i'm not much for the HF line "I don't know what to tell you" however I suspect you see what you want to see when you say "I'm not seeing this major upgrade"
 

HF Reader

Registered User
Jan 20, 2018
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Turris is in a different situation in Nashville. He didn't put up too much before he got to us in Arizona and now he's behind Ryan Johansen in Nashville most nights.

He tried to upgrade the center position.... fine...

His story is he traded away a non-protected first round for a slight upgrade at the center position and then a few months later he decided on a full rebuild. It's disastrous management.

Melnyk and Dorion have no idea what they're doing. It took a billion dollar lawsuit and a long dark tunnel with no end for Melnyk to understand he should have tried to work harder to find a deal with Ruddy or a buyer. Dorion has no ****ing idea how to look at a team and decide what needs to happen. It's bad.
Just a small note, I thought the traded pick was protected and the pick was moved to this year. Protected for one year.

I also think Melnyk and Dorion know full well what they are doing. We just don't like what they are doing. If you mean they lack the wherewithal (financial and otherwise) to run a successful hockey team then it's hard to disagree.
 

L'Aveuglette

つ ◕_◕ ༽つ
Jan 8, 2007
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Montreal
Voted no because it wasn't worth the assets we gave up even though Duchene is a clear improvement over Turris.

Edit: Also, shouldn't there be an option that says "yes but only if we re-sign him"?
 
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JD1

Registered User
Sep 12, 2005
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Offensively I agree he is an upgrade. BUT I find Turris was way better defensively than Duchene. Now Turris isn't some Selke winning C, so that kind of tells you how bad Duchene is. The Duchene trade was a giant miscalculation by this team. All the signs were there that we were playing above our heads in Boucher's system. The only difference between the "good" year and the "bad" year was that Andy and Condon wasn't there to save our bacon.

I agree Duchene is not a great defensive centre...but at this stage I don't know what Turris looks like defensively either. Did his defensive game fall off the map like his offensive game? his offensive game didn't just fall off the map...it totally caved. In a league where scoring is way up his numbers are way down
 

The Devilish Buffoon

🇵🇸 viva 🇵🇸 free 🇵🇸
Dec 24, 2018
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Nah but I would have made the Turris trade

One of the worst moves made by a general manager in the history of the sport. This trade will rank up there with Yashin to the Islanders. Amazing that so many defended this deal, it was obvious from the start that it would be a colossal failure.

lol wat

Sens got a top 5 DMan of the past 20 years and a 2nd overall pick for a player who is way below the level of Duchene and was signed to a franchise crippling contract

Not even close
 

Ice-Tray

Registered User
Jan 31, 2006
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Victoria
Turris is in a different situation in Nashville. He didn't put up too much before he got to us in Arizona and now he's behind Ryan Johansen in Nashville most nights.

He tried to upgrade the center position.... fine...

His story is he traded away a non-protected first round for a slight upgrade at the center position and then a few months later he decided on a full rebuild. It's disastrous management.

Melnyk and Dorion have no idea what they're doing. It took a billion dollar lawsuit and a long dark tunnel with no end for Melnyk to understand he should have tried to work harder to find a deal with Ruddy or a buyer. Dorion has no ****ing idea how to look at a team and decide what needs to happen. It's bad.

Why are you calling the first round pick that was traded away for Duchene “non protected”? Is this a mistype?

It was absolutely a lottery protected pick. PD and staff decided to keep the pick this year and are in record saying that they feel like BT ranks up with the top of next years draft in their opinion, which helped them make the decision to keep it rather than pass it on the Col.
 

branch

#GirlBoss #Vibes
Jan 12, 2008
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Nah but I would have made the Turris trade



lol wat

Sens got a top 5 DMan of the past 20 years and a 2nd overall pick for a player who is way below the level of Duchene and was signed to a franchise crippling contract

Not even close
You should educate yourself and see how impactful most scouts think the players at the top end of this draft will be. Especially in the cap era having cost controlled elite assets is how you build success.
 

The Devilish Buffoon

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You should educate yourself and see how impactful most scouts think the players at the top end of this draft will be. Especially in the cap era having cost controlled elite assets is how you build success.

Nice condescension lol... I am well aware of the top players in this draft, it is a very deep top end with a lot of potential franchise players and 1st liner

Still, you really think there is any player in this draft who is more impactful than Chara + Spezza? That's an elite #1D and a #1C and that is not even to mention that Duchene is a better player than Yashin was at the time

It was a very bad trade and showed a total failure in evaluating the quality of the team, especially if we don't re-sign Duchene, nowehere did I say otherwise. To compare it to the Yashin trade is a gross exaggeration

If you really believe it's not, maybe you should "educate yourself"
 

The Devilish Buffoon

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Also, there are so many other wayyyy worse trades in history

Kurvers for 5th overall (Niedermayer)
Parrish + Kvasha for Jokinen + Luongo
Pederson for Neely + 1st
Sturm, Stuart, Primeau for Thornton

Just to name a few

Doesn't mean it wasnt a terrible trade
 

FolignoQuantumLeap

Don't Hold The Door
Mar 16, 2009
31,084
7,399
Ottawa
Nah but I would have made the Turris trade



lol wat

Sens got a top 5 DMan of the past 20 years and a 2nd overall pick for a player who is way below the level of Duchene and was signed to a franchise crippling contract

Not even close
Yashin and Duchene are very very comparable. I think you could make the argument Yashin was a better player when he was dealt and in his prime. Islanders even got him signed which is pretty unlikely for the Sens at this point.

The first we gave was the most valuable asset in the deal given up then you add Bowers, Turris, and a 3rd. Its unfathomable how badly Dorion got worked over.
 

FolignoQuantumLeap

Don't Hold The Door
Mar 16, 2009
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Also, there are so many other wayyyy worse trades in history

Kurvers for 5th overall (Niedermayer)
Parrish + Kvasha for Jokinen + Luongo
Pederson for Neely + 1st
Sturm, Stuart, Primeau for Thornton

Just to name a few

Doesn't mean it wasnt a terrible trade
Karlsson + Perron for Tierney + Norris + Demelo + Balcers + 1st + 2nd

Hoffman + 5th for Boedker + 6th

Those rank high on the list too.
 

branch

#GirlBoss #Vibes
Jan 12, 2008
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Nice condescension lol... I am well aware of the top players in this draft, it is a very deep top end with a lot of potential franchise players and 1st liner

Still, you really think there is any player in this draft who is more impactful than Chara + Spezza? That's an elite #1D and a #1C and that is not even to mention that Duchene is a better player than Yashin was at the time

It was a very bad trade and showed a total failure in evaluating the quality of the team, especially if we don't re-sign Duchene, nowehere did I say otherwise. To compare it to the Yashin trade is a gross exaggeration

If you really believe it's not, maybe you should "educate yourself"
Relax. You gave me attitude the other day as well too. Neither of us are saints.

Maybe not as bad as Yashin/Spezza but it is approaching that classification. I will say it is worse than Kessel/Seguin and will be definitively worse than that debacle should Duchene not sign a contract.
 

FolignoQuantumLeap

Don't Hold The Door
Mar 16, 2009
31,084
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Ottawa
Relax. You gave me attitude the other day as well too. Neither of us are saints.

Maybe not as bad as Yashin/Spezza but it is approaching that classification. I will say it is worse than Kessel/Seguin and will be definitively worse than that debacle should Duchene not sign a contract.
Yeah, I think it is worse than the Kessel trade easily if he isnt signed. That was an awful trade but at least they had Kessel lomg term.
 

JD1

Registered User
Sep 12, 2005
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Relax. You gave me attitude the other day as well too. Neither of us are saints.

Maybe not as bad as Yashin/Spezza but it is approaching that classification. I will say it is worse than Kessel/Seguin and will be definitively worse than that debacle should Duchene not sign a contract.

The Kessel trade was a bad trade because there is no history in the nhl dating back 30+ years of a team winning with a winger as the best player with the exception of ovy last year. Yes there is chicago with kane if you feel that is the case but kane was surrounded by two h o f players. The kesel trade also led to hamilton. The trade itself was poorly conceived, just a dumb hockey move. On the other hand upgrading the C position like we did is never a dumb move per se, what makes it distasteful is what has happened since, a great deal of which was pretty unpredictable.
 

Beville

#ForTheBoys
Mar 4, 2011
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Voted no because it wasn't worth the assets we gave up even though Duchene is a clear improvement over Turris.

Edit: Also, shouldn't there be an option that says "yes but only if we re-sign him"?
Pretty much what I think too,

If he does resign, and Colorado doesn’t get #1OA I’m happy.

If however he jumps ship, and we do come dead last (likely at this rate) then it’s worthless. We’ve given up significant assets and achieved absolutely nothing with it. Sure you can’t predict this but still.
 

branch

#GirlBoss #Vibes
Jan 12, 2008
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The Kessel trade was a bad trade because there is no history in the nhl dating back 30+ years of a team winning with a winger as the best player with the exception of ovy last year. Yes there is chicago with kane if you feel that is the case but kane was surrounded by two h o f players. The kesel trade also led to hamilton. The trade itself was poorly conceived, just a dumb hockey move. On the other hand upgrading the C position like we did is never a dumb move per se, what makes it distasteful is what has happened since, a great deal of which was pretty unpredictable.
I think in this case the end will not justify the means of upgrading our centre position (who still is not signed yet)
 

BonHoonLayneCornell

Registered User
Oct 16, 2006
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Yukon
You need to have a plan though, you dont just upgrade and say you did well, you absolutely need to sign this guy.

We gave up a kings ransom even before we tanked, but without keeping Duchene long term it was nothing but a short sighted bad move. I cant believe people can still defend this trade if we dont extend him. Its a colossal failure if we have to trade him.
 

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