Would you be okay with an extended losing streak if Bylsma gets canned?

[Jules Winnfield]

I can understand where some of the folks holding Shero accountable are coming from. But I don't know that it's a reason to fire him. If he's working with Bylsma to find guys that would fit the system, well to me that makes sense. Why waste assets on a guy that Bylsma won't use or will flat out mis-use?

With that logic we should only draft and trade for a team made up of Craig Adams and his ilk.

 

[Jaded-Fan]

Have not read the thread, so my comments are cold.

My preference if that Disco gets his head out of his ass and learn from his mistakes.

He is not a bad coach. He is 90% of a good coach. His stubborness, both in keeping to his system when other teams adjust to take away what makes it work, and in lineup choices, keeps him from being a great coach and keeps us exiting the playoffs early.

He might have to be fired to learn the lesson and might become great elsewhere. If so he would not be the first who had to go that route.

 

[DegenX]

With that logic we should only draft and trade for a team made up of Craig Adams and his ilk.

I think you misunderstood my point.

 

[Sivek]

Going to need an awfully big can.

I think I already know what picture will be on the label.

 

[BrunoPuntzJones]

This one?

 

[Sivek]

This one?

Slap a Made in America tagline on there and you may be on to something. Made from 100% Authentic 4th-liners, just like Mom used to make.

 

[DegenX]

This one?

I know Geno is looking at the scoreboard ... but it looks like he's asking for some divine intervention

 

[#66]

You could have guys like Voracek or Frolik IF you were willing to insert those young PMD and move the older defensemen. I mean, it's a cap world. Something has to give somewhere. If you draft all these young defensemen, then either you play them or you do what the Pens have done since Sid and Geno left their rookie deals, mitigate the one advantage the Pens would have over everyone else in the league if, from a roster building perspective, they chose to exploit it.

Yeah the cap is the cap but you can see some of these players come in through the draft too. Tatar and Silfverberg are just two names mentioned out of many that could have been drafted over the years.

Another thing about over drafting D is that their learning curve is so long at such a vital position that that it forms this glut of inexperience at one time. As good as Maatta and Bortuzzo have looked this year, do we really want to see half the D be such newbs in the league next year when Despres and Doumolin are ready?

 

[Dipsy Doodle]

1. I assume you agree with 3, 4, and 5.

Not necessarily. I have to pick my battles with you...there are only so many hours in the day.

2. What did Shero 'risk' to go all in and where did I question the prices he paid for Morrow and Murray?

Uh, a ******** of futures. If that's not risky enough for you, then it seems nothing short of Shero going Full Holmgren will satisfy your risk obsession. You're like an Mountain Dew commercial from the '90s with your x-treme thirst for adrenaline.

It just seems like such an absurd thing to want from a contender. "Our GM only makes the smart moves. If only he'd do something really risky to potentially compromise our perennial contender for once!".

3. Coach, system, and team is PRETTY MUCH unchanged = I said no changes to team in your book. Straw man from you. No argument otherwise.

The team is not "pretty much unchanged". There's been as much organizational turnover as anyone should reasonably expect from a contender with the core young stars firmly entrenched. You're basically miffed about 3 veterans being retained at well below market value and Bylsma not being fired, haha.

 

[BrunoPuntzJones]

I know Geno is looking at the scoreboard ... but it looks like he's asking for some divine intervention

He's thinking "Oh God, I re-signed almost a decade because I love Dan Bylsma so much, what will I do now?"

 

[KIRK]

Not necessarily. I have to pick my battles with you...there are only so many hours in the day.



Uh, a ******** of futures. If that's not risky enough for you, then it seems nothing short of Shero going Full Holmgren will satisfy your risk obsession. You're like an Mountain Dew commercial from the '90s with your x-treme thirst for adrenaline.

It just seems like such an absurd thing to want from a contender. "Our GM only makes the smart moves. If only he'd do something really risky to potentially compromise our perennial contender for once!".



The team is not "pretty much unchanged". There's been as much organizational turnover as anyone should reasonably expect from a contender with the core young stars firmly entrenched. You're basically miffed about 3 veterans being retained at well below market value and Bylsma not being fired, haha.

Thanks for the chuckle.

BTW, there's a middle ground between risking futures and going full Homer. 'Risking Niskanen' might be a baby step in that direction, as an example.

 

[KIRK]

Yeah the cap is the cap but you can see some of these players come in through the draft too. Tatar and Silfverberg are just two names mentioned out of many that could have been drafted over the years.

Another thing about over drafting D is that their learning curve is so long at such a vital position that that it forms this glut of inexperience at one time. As good as Maatta and Bortuzzo have looked this year, do we really want to see half the D be such newbs in the league next year when Despres and Doumolin are ready?

You've got 4 defensemen who can play right now, and on a fully healthy roster only 1 dresses. It should be 2. It could be 3. But, that means taking a risk on the defense and allocating the cap dollars to the construction of the top nine. Simple cost/benefit analysis.

 

[KIRK]

Yeah, it would've been great if we took Forsberg and Maatta. But those defensemen boy...we're going to eventually have 4 or 5 defensive pairings and cut back on forwards out there. We can run forward lines with 2 and defensive lines with 3 soon enough the way Shero drafts.

/rant over

I wasn't talking about Forsberg. I won't even balk about Pouliot. But, in a cap world, where SOMETHING has to give, if you're going to be drafting all of these defensemen high, then you need to be playing them on their entry level deals so you can allocate cap dollars (a) where you're not as strong in terms of prospects (up front) and (b) to exploit the one advantage you hold over the rest of the league (Sid and Geno).

The Pens have 4 guys who can play, as I noted. On a perfectly healthy 1 is. That's bad cap and asset management.

 

[dueling mullets]

Crosby wants to play with Kunitz and Dupuis. He said it in an interview last year right before he came back from the jaw injury. Madden asked him about lines, and Crosby said he hopes and expects to play with K and D, level of comfort, familiarity, etc. The organization caters to Crosby, and as such, keeps that line together. I don't like Disco, but all the hate directed towards him regarding the Pen's top line has been unwarranted and un-researched for months now.

I just can't wait to read these boards after Fleury gives up 5 goals a game in the playoffs, other teams lock up Crosby and malkin, and the Pens lose a series in embarrassing fashion for yet another year. It might even be more entertaining than if they win the Stanley cup. The problem (which in HF's mind is not being a dynasty with two of the top players) is systemic (not systematic) of the whole organization, no individual replacement will fix it.

 

[Jaded-Fan]

Crosby wants to play with Kunitz and Dupuis. He said it in an interview last year right before he came back from the jaw injury. Madden asked him about lines, and Crosby said he hopes and expects to play with K and D, level of comfort, familiarity, etc. The organization caters to Crosby, and as such, keeps that line together. I don't like Disco, but all the hate directed towards him regarding the Pen's top line has been unwarranted and un-researched for months now.

I just can't wait to read these boards after Fleury gives up 5 goals a game in the playoffs, other teams lock up Crosby and malkin, and the Pens lose a series in embarrassing fashion for yet another year. It might even be more entertaining than if they win the Stanley cup. The problem (which in HF's mind is not being a dynasty with two of the top players) is systemic (not systematic) of the whole organization, no individual replacement will fix it.

You act as if most on this board do not expect that to happen. The surprise will be if it does not happen.

 

[KIRK]

Crosby wants to play with Kunitz and Dupuis. He said it in an interview last year right before he came back from the jaw injury. Madden asked him about lines, and Crosby said he hopes and expects to play with K and D, level of comfort, familiarity, etc. The organization caters to Crosby, and as such, keeps that line together. I don't like Disco, but all the hate directed towards him regarding the Pen's top line has been unwarranted and un-researched for months now.

I just can't wait to read these boards after Fleury gives up 5 goals a game in the playoffs, other teams lock up Crosby and malkin, and the Pens lose a series in embarrassing fashion for yet another year. It might even be more entertaining than if they win the Stanley cup. The problem (which in HF's mind is not being a dynasty with two of the top players) is systemic (not systematic) of the whole organization, no individual replacement will fix it.

Bylsma is an illustration of the problem, but the problem is that arrogance of which Torts once spoke.

Yeah, I know, Torts is great for a chuckle, and it's 'stupid' to suggest that the Pens, the player and fan friendliest team in hockey could be malicious enough to be arrogant.

Fact is, the Pens arrogance is an odd mix of the obstinate and the complacent. Shero is an example. Bylsma is an example. Granato and Reirden are examples. Malkin and Letang are examples. Orpik may as well be the second coming of Hines Ward, because the only thing missing from his schtick is 'I am the leader of the defense'. Up and down the rest of the players are examples, including, dare I say, Sid.

 

[KIRK]

You act as if most on this board do not expect that to happen. The surprise will be if it does not happen.

I cannot fathom how a poster with your username ever could be driven to type those words.

 

[dueling mullets]

You act as if most on this board do not expect that to happen. The surprise will be if it does not happen.

I mean all the comments from the homers about how good a season it was, how we as fans can't expect to win a Stanley cup with 30 other teams in the league, that the other goalie just got hot (stopping shots with no screens, no net presence, is so hard!), etc. Not the raging comments that coincide with my beliefs. Forgot to add all the fleury support comments, that no other teams rebuild around their core (cough Chicago twice now cough)

 

[Jules Winnfield]

I wasn't talking about Forsberg. I won't even balk about Pouliot. But, in a cap world, where SOMETHING has to give, if you're going to be drafting all of these defensemen high, then you need to be playing them on their entry level deals so you can allocate cap dollars (a) where you're not as strong in terms of prospects (up front) and (b) to exploit the one advantage you hold over the rest of the league (Sid and Geno).

The Pens have 4 guys who can play, as I noted. On a perfectly healthy 1 is. That's bad cap and asset management.

I agree with you and reiterate my rant from earlier

This organization is filthy rich in young defenseman. We had an opportunity to draft a guy like Forsberg who was considered a top 5 pick much of the year and passed. I know that in drafts you should almost always take the BPA but Pouliot was ranked 17-22 by most analysts. It was a head shaker for me.

 

[KIRK]

I mean all the comments from the homers about how good a season it was, how we as fans can't expect to win a Stanley cup with 30 other teams in the league, that the other goalie just got hot (stopping shots with no screens, no net presence, is so hard!), etc. Not the raging comments that coincide with my beliefs. Forgot to add all the fleury support comments, that no other teams rebuild around their core (cough Chicago twice now cough)

Chicago didn't even rebuild in the way that people typically conceive of a rebuild. They regrouped, took a step back to take two steps forward. San Jose did the same last season. But, for a franchise to do that, a GM has to have a pretty limited view of what players are indispensable and a willingness to take a risk on younger players (the latter one also is on the coach, of course).

 

[dueling mullets]

Bylsma is an illustration of the problem, but the problem is that arrogance of which Torts once spoke.

Yeah, I know, Torts is great for a chuckle, and it's 'stupid' to suggest that the Pens, the player and fan friendliest team in hockey could be malicious enough to be arrogant.

Fact is, the Pens arrogance is an odd mix of the obstinate and the complacent. Shero is an example. Bylsma is an example. Granato and Reirden are examples. Malkin and Letang are examples. Orpik may as well be the second coming of Hines Ward, because the only thing missing from his schtick is 'I am the leader of the defense'. Up and down the rest of the players are examples, including, dare I say, Sid.

I agree. The Orpik-Hines comparison was gold. Jagr went on the record to say that Boston knew that crosby and Malkin's supporting cast/wingers weren't good enough to beat them, even if unguarded at the expense of shutting down Crosby/Malkin. When Jagr says that, fugging Jagr, and we just rinse and repeat the same offensive roster, expectations should be no different and are apparent of the arrogance you talk about. No respect to Boston's strategically better gameplan and analysis of the Pen's roster.

 

[dueling mullets]

Chicago didn't even rebuild in the way that people typically conceive of a rebuild. They regrouped, took a step back to take two steps forward. San Jose did the same last season. But, for a franchise to do that, a GM has to have a pretty limited view of what players are indispensable and a willingness to take a risk on younger players (the latter one also is on the coach, of course).

Regroup is definitely a better word to describe what they did, and what I wish the Pen's did this offseason. I was so ready to see at least one of Kunitz or Dupuis walk. Who would we get? I don't know, I'm a drunk internet poster who has zero access to other gm's phones and scouts so don't ask me.

 

[KIRK]

Regroup is definitely a better word to describe what they did, and what I wish the Pen's did this offseason. I was so ready to see at least one of Kunitz or Dupuis walk. Who would we get? I don't know, I'm a drunk internet poster who has zero access to other gm's phones and scouts so don't ask me.

The second sentence of your post still qualifies you as more sober than a lot of people here.

 

[mpp9]

I would like to hear Shero talk less about Detroit in terms of modeling the franchise and more about Chicago. Ya know, the team that has won two Cups in the last three calendar years and is set up as strong as ever.

But I have no problem with Shero's drafting strategy. Maatta has the look of an elite D-man. Already a regular in the line up at 19. Possibly a partner for Letang as soon as next season. It's up to Ray to take advantage of what that means for our cap situation. And for DB to properly incorporate the new players in the coming years, i.e., vets get lesser roles as better players come up the pipeline or via trade.

 

[Ugene Magic]

I wasn't talking about Forsberg. I won't even balk about Pouliot. But, in a cap world, where SOMETHING has to give, if you're going to be drafting all of these defensemen high, then you need to be playing them on their entry level deals so you can allocate cap dollars (a) where you're not as strong in terms of prospects (up front) and (b) to exploit the one advantage you hold over the rest of the league (Sid and Geno).

The Pens have 4 guys who can play, as I noted. On a perfectly healthy 1 is. That's bad cap and asset management.

That's the whole issue with this train of thought, are we rebuilding?

Point #1.
Not all of these D-prospects are ready for full-time top 4 minutes. Maatta has been the closest thing to this notion, and they have made that statement by keeping him up. Despres, at the time was their best bet, and he hasn't grasped that role yet in more games than Maatta has played to date.

Point #2.
To shove all these D-prospects into the lineup at once constitutes a rebuild. Those don't usually come with cup aspirations.

Point #3.
Win now, seems the tone the team has taken.

Point #4.
These D-prospects have to actually be better than the roster players they're to be replacing on their ELC's.

Point #5.
These guys will not be just thrusted into top 4 minute roles and just cut loose players due to their ELC's, they'll earn their spot through the bottom pairing like anyone else. Otherwise, again....that costitutes a rebuild.

What's more important to you guys, winning it now, or getting all of these D-prospects in on ELC's?

One way has you trying to win it every year, and the other in a couple more seasons or more. Which leads to another question.

Do you want to waste another couple seasons on a defense rebuild that you're speaking of, wasting more prime years of the top stars?

The picking heavy on Defense seems to be keeping the ones you have the highest hope for and the rest are trading chips for what you need.

Balance is key, but that balance can be disrupted easily with injuries, moreso at forward. Now why's that? Because their cap dollars are allocated there more. It's the only place on the roster that can absorb the top heavy contracts due to sheer numbers.