Would you be okay with an extended losing streak if Bylsma gets canned?

Ragamuffin Gunner

Lost in the Flood
Aug 15, 2008
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Again, there are no set rankings. So your argument will always fall on itself over and over.

We have a stud in Maatta who looks like he may be getting groomed for a spot next to Letang as soon as next year. That's a hell of a return on a #22 overall pick.

Pouliot is a longer ways away. But his upside is tremendous. A legit PP QB. We all like to praise our skill on the PP, but we could absolutely use an upgrade at the point there. Sid isn't comfortable there, nor is Geno. And Letang is a stopgap solution there at best.

I said in the other thread, but I'd be surprised if Shero doesn't make a hockey trade this year. Surplus/expendable D for a winger with some top 6 ability but most importantly, size and net front skills.

Mac's rankings are "a compilation based on input from various scouts around the National Hockey League." They're as close to the best ranking as you can get.

This team is in win now mode, so taking a guy who is 3+ years away from the NHL and prolly 5+ from being the PPQB he might become over guys who were 1 season away from the NHL doesn't make sense. DP was neither the BPA nor the BDA, yet Shero felt it was a good idea to go off the board for him 5 min after moving a key part of his 3C model.

As soon as he moved Staal he should have gone to a "stacked top 6" model, but he chose to continue to stockpile Dmen (on top og getting another Dman in the Staal trade).

Even is DP reached his top potential, IMO it was still a bad pick because it won't be till Sid's in his 30s and won't justify the lost years of the possibility of having FF or Truba during that time.
 

Houston Penguin

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Mac's rankings are "a compilation based on input from various scouts around the National Hockey League." They're as close to the best ranking as you can get.

This team is in win now mode, so taking a guy who is 3+ years away from the NHL and prolly 5+ from being the PPQB he might become over guys who were 1 season away from the NHL doesn't make sense. DP was neither the BPA nor the BDA, yet Shero felt it was a good idea to go off the board for him 5 min after moving a key part of his 3C model.

As soon as he moved Staal he should have gone to a "stacked top 6" model, but he chose to continue to stockpile Dmen (on top og getting another Dman in the Staal trade).

Even is DP reached his top potential, IMO it was still a bad pick because it won't be till Sid's in his 30s and won't justify the lost years of the possibility of having FF or Truba during that time.

Why are we in win now mode? Malkin and Crosby became 32 overnight?

What has Filip Forsberg done? Not much from what I've seen so if we are in WIN NOW mode, what's the difference between him and Pouliot?

Does Pouliot fill a need we have? PPQB .... I think so. And who's to say he is so many years off .... Maatta stepped in .... Letang did it before him. Wouldn't it be nice to have Pouliot be Gogo next year as the PP QB?

And the question no one will answer .... WHO THE HELL WAS AVAILABLE FOR THE PENS TO SIGN THAT WOULD HAVE MADE OUR TOP SIX BETTER FOR THE SAME AMOUNT OF MONEY DUPUIS AND KUNITZ TOOK?

WHAT TRADE DID YOU HEAR ABOUT THAT WOULD HAVE MADE US BETTER?
 

Shockmaster

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Sep 11, 2012
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Why are we in win now mode? Malkin and Crosby became 32 overnight?

What has Filip Forsberg done? Not much from what I've seen so if we are in WIN NOW mode, what's the difference between him and Pouliot?

Does Pouliot fill a need we have? PPQB .... I think so. And who's to say he is so many years off .... Maatta stepped in .... Letang did it before him. Wouldn't it be nice to have Pouliot be Gogo next year as the PP QB?

And the question no one will answer .... WHO THE HELL WAS AVAILABLE FOR THE PENS TO SIGN THAT WOULD HAVE MADE OUR TOP SIX BETTER FOR THE SAME AMOUNT OF MONEY DUPUIS AND KUNITZ TOOK?

WHAT TRADE DID YOU HEAR ABOUT THAT WOULD HAVE MADE US BETTER?

Because the Penguins two best players are in the prime of their careers...
 

SHOOTANDSCORE

Eeny Meeny Miny Moe
Sep 25, 2005
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I wouldn't say I "want" an extended losing streak but I suggested back in June, that we might be better off long-term if there was a nasty streak this fall and Bylsma was replaced with someone more seasoned / tuned to playoff matchups etc.

Now that Jacques is here, it's a no-brainer what would come next. Rossi and those toolbags can PR it up all they want talking about how "Disco wanted Jacques here" etc but there's a flipside to that move, and that is, Martin is almost guranteed to succeed Bylsma in the event of a firing, whereas that was not true of any of Disco's assistants or anyone in WBS IMO.

I do know for a fact though that Jacob is right about one thing: it wouldn't take even 30 days for people to start *****ing about Martin. As I said yesterday in other threads, we're spoiled. We think we're better than we are, we think we're entitled to gripe when we're 7-3, etc etc. Sometimes it's warranted (Bylsma DOES do some amazingly stupid **** sometimes, it seems to me... as do some of our better players) but mostly we get bent out of shape too soon as a group, and exaggerate stuff too much or imply things are easier for a coach than they are.

I still want Disco to get better and he's shown signs here and there but lately the Islanders game and the Engo at F + Bortuzzo scratch thing has me thinking this guy is just delusional when it comes to the "grind em down" ****. I believe Bylsma has an over-simplified view of the game (if I had to guess based on what he does with this personnel).
This.
All of this.


I will say that I get noticeably less enjoyment from watching them nowadays. I think it has to do with the sloppiness and style they are playing.

I got much more enjoyment from watching this team under MT, and that is saying something.
 

KIRK

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Aug 2, 2005
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No it's fans who know so little about managing a team that they look at a guy like Shero and claim he's terrible.

But go ahead and enlighten us. With the cap being what it is, top salaries being what they are and your knowledge of available players Shero could've had instead of Kobasew, etc... show us the way. Maybe shero will read this and be inspired by your brilliance. :rolleyes:

If you want to criticize him that's one thing but then for your criticism to mean anything, you have to back it up with realistic alternatives and examples of what other GMs in similar situations did... things which Shero passed on based on some evidence you have beyond "HFB posters said it was a better way!"

C'mon, DV, you can't compare to what other GM's did because part of that is assessing what their other options are or what they chose not to do.

For me, it's five basic things:

1. He budgeted 7.5M for Sid's wingers and gave us Kunitz and Dupuis. Yep, he missed on Parise. Maybe there was a deal out there, maybe not. That's the part that you just don't know . . . will he take a risk in a deal these days or only make it when his hand is forced (Staal) or it's a no brainer (Gologoski)? No way to know for sure.

2. Coach, system, and team is pretty much unchanged despite the last two exits (and more). Is that indicative that Shero thinks it's right just as it is and it's just a question of the puck luck or that he really has his hands tied? And, if it's the latter, then who tied them?

3. The day Ray Shero was hired, on the heels of the Craig Patrick era, the one thing he promised is that the Pens never would be easy to play against again. And, from the day he came on board until I'd say maybe 2010, they weren't. The Pens overwhelmed you with top end skill, punched you in the mouth, and you just wouldn't see a situation where Sid and Geno would get the **** kicked out of them by the likes of Toronto or Boston and nobody would do anything (I mean, this team doesn't make it 10% as hard on the other team's stars). The Craig Patrick era Penguins are back. Forget the country club cracks. This team is easy to play against.

4. The lessons he took from the 2008-2010 playoffs. He has built this team like someone who believes that you build this team by filling the holes and then giving Sid and Geno what you can. It's like he's applied the Predators instead of the Senators model to this team. 2009 proved that you can get away with it if all the stars align (although even in 2009 it two two deals to take care of Sid first). But, in terms of personnel mix, the 2008 team was better and one that, on balance, would be more likely to win a cup. That was the one that really took care of Sid and Geno.

5. As a corollary, his draft strategy. I'm not talking about forwards versus defensemen. Shero has adopted a strategy of taking defensemen. But, if that's the case, then to what end? In a cap world, SOMETHING has to give. If you're drafting all of these defensemen, then let it be the dollars allocated there as you work in all these talented young guys on rookie deals. And, if they're not ready-- if you've gotten maybe 40 total games in 5 years out of these young guys where injuries weren't the cause-- then how good at drafting has Shero been? You can't have it both ways. And, if his strategy had been to draft forwards, I'd be saying the same thing about introducing them to the top six (like Bennett).

Again, though, the problem is that it's unfair to do a 'tell me what you'd have done' without knowing what Shero's options were.

That said, looking at the five things cited above and some of the other things people have suggested, is it so unreasonable to assume that Shero has proven as susceptible to the same type of personnel biases that affect, say, Dan Bylsma?

I mean, you see these guys win a cup, you promote a nice family atmosphere . . . it makes it harder to take a hard, honest look at some guys on an on-going basis.
 

Fire Shero*

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Why are we in win now mode? Malkin and Crosby became 32 overnight?

What has Filip Forsberg done? Not much from what I've seen so if we are in WIN NOW mode, what's the difference between him and Pouliot?

Does Pouliot fill a need we have? PPQB .... I think so. And who's to say he is so many years off .... Maatta stepped in .... Letang did it before him. Wouldn't it be nice to have Pouliot be Gogo next year as the PP QB?

And the question no one will answer .... WHO THE HELL WAS AVAILABLE FOR THE PENS TO SIGN THAT WOULD HAVE MADE OUR TOP SIX BETTER FOR THE SAME AMOUNT OF MONEY DUPUIS AND KUNITZ TOOK?

WHAT TRADE DID YOU HEAR ABOUT THAT WOULD HAVE MADE US BETTER?

LOL

We don't know who has been available. But I find it hard to believe that there aren't better players than Dupuis, Kunitz and Jokinen for the same price. We are just dumb fans, Shero is the super genius. (who traded Joe Morrow for 2 months of Brenden Morrow)

I just don't know why he abandoned drafting forwards
 

JTG

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Sep 30, 2007
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I'd say the biggest problem over the past few seasons aside from injuries has been structure and accountability. If you replace DB, you bring in someone who'd focus on bringing those two traits back to this hockey team.

We had Therrien who brought oodles of structure and accountability...people hated him too. And how is DB not holding players accountable is my next question?
 

Houston Penguin

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Mar 17, 2007
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Because the Penguins two best players are in the prime of their careers...

Jesus ... will they be there next year, two years from now?

WE were caught in a cap crunch, a lack of suitable options in the league, and a goaltender issue.

If we are still having this issue two years from now, with the cap going up, then talk to me about their primes. There wasn't a hell of a lot that could be done with this summer.

Deals were not there, as many GM's mentioned. Free agency was a bust for top six forwards .... hell the top get was freakin' Clarkson? REALLY?

Give y'all's head a shake, please!
 

KIRK

Registered User
Aug 2, 2005
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No, because Bylsma isn't the one signing Adams and Glass and sending players up and down.

The coach may change, but the overall philosophy is coming from Shero.

I used to think it was Dan, but last season + this off-season convinced me otherwise.

As I just suggested, the problem may be that you need two pairs of fresh eyes looking at this personnel mix. This team is just so much like the late 90's Pens. Not hard to play against. A pair of elite players and a bunch of waiver wire material types. The biggest difference may be that Craig Patrick at least had the excuse that he had no money to spend, even on coaches. Ray Shero does.
 

PensPlz

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Dec 23, 2009
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Yes if they inform me first that they are going to losing so I don't go to those games or waste time watching them.

-.-
 

Shockmaster

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Sep 11, 2012
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Jesus ... will they be there next year, two years from now?

WE were caught in a cap crunch, a lack of suitable options in the league, and a goaltender issue.

If we are still having this issue two years from now, with the cap going up, then talk to me about their primes. There wasn't a hell of a lot that could be done with this summer.

Deals were not there, as many GM's mentioned. Free agency was a bust for top six forwards .... hell the top get was freakin' Clarkson? REALLY?

Give y'all's head a shake, please!

This post makes no sense.
 

Houston Penguin

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Mar 17, 2007
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LOL

We don't know who has been available. But I find it hard to believe that there aren't better players than Dupuis, Kunitz and Jokinen for the same price. We are just dumb fans, Shero is the super genius. (who traded Joe Morrow for 2 months of Brenden Morrow)

I just don't know why he abandoned drafting forwards

Uhh, what?

And three better players, available last summer, for the price he had to use and you find it hard to believe? Really? You did see what was available, right?:shakehead
 

Shockmaster

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Sep 11, 2012
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Of course it wouldn't to someone who has uttered the last few comments you did.

Yeah... when you have the two best players of the world in their primes, and have underachieved badly in the last 4 seasons in the playoffs, you don't put off a run at a Stanley Cup for another year for those bogus reasons you listed. Try harder. :shakehead
 

mpp9

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Dec 5, 2010
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We had Therrien who brought oodles of structure and accountability...people hated him too. And how is DB not holding players accountable is my next question?

There are better versions of MT. I dont' think DB is a bad coach. I just question whether he's the right fit on a team with superstar players and Cup expectations year in year out.

How many dumb ass back breaking plays have we witnessed over the course of the last few playoffs? How many times was any of Letang, Kunitz, Neal benched for their stupidity in the Philly series? None. I make sure to look at the TOI after every game. Don't recall a single time their ice time has been affected no matter their play.

How else is a coach supposed to hold his team accountable? Yell at them? They're grown men.
 

JTG

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Sep 30, 2007
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There are better versions of MT. I dont' think DB is a bad coach. I just question whether he's the right fit on a team with superstar players and Cup expectations year in year out.

How many dumb ass back breaking plays have we witnessed over the course of the last few playoffs? How many times was any of Letang, Kunitz, Neal benched for their stupidity in the Philly series? None. I make sure to look at the TOI after every game. Don't recall a single time their ice time has been affected no matter their play.

How else is a coach supposed to hold his team accountable? Yell at them? They're grown men.

Who do you replace them with? You bench Kunitz, you're replacing him with Kobasew. You bench Letang, you're replacing him with Niskanen. You bench Neal you're replacing him with D'Agostini. Your best players are going to get more leeway because they are your best players, and them playing is better for your team.

Who is the better version of MT? Martin? I'm telling you, I've watched this game for a long time...Martin would have the same reception from this fanbase that DB has after 10 games. I'd guarantee it.

I think what you're looking for is pie in the sky.
 

Shockmaster

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Sep 11, 2012
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There are better versions of MT. I dont' think DB is a bad coach. I just question whether he's the right fit on a team with superstar players and Cup expectations year in year out.

How many dumb ass back breaking plays have we witnessed over the course of the last few playoffs? How many times was any of Letang, Kunitz, Neal benched for their stupidity in the Philly series? None. I make sure to look at the TOI after every game. Don't recall a single time their ice time has been affected no matter their play.

How else is a coach supposed to hold his team accountable? Yell at them? They're grown men.

Every now and then a coach might need to raise his voice or kick a garbage can as I mentioned in a previous post. However, he can't do it all the time like Therrien or Tortorella have done. That's why those coaches tend to wear out their welcome after two or three years.

When the players are being stupid, the coach needs to set them straight. Bylsma doesn't seem capable of doing that, or doesn't want to.
 

Control Denied

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Sep 28, 2011
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Its gonna take more than an extended losing streak to get rid of Bylsma.

A 1st round loss in the playoffs might do it
 

Houston Penguin

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Yeah... when you have the two best players of the world in their primes, and have underachieved badly in the last 4 seasons in the playoffs, you don't put off a run at a Stanley Cup for another year for those bogus reasons you listed. Try harder. :shakehead

Bogus? Really? No substantial trades available to improve your top six is bogus? Then, a lot of teams are giving up on this year. How many times have we heard GM's say the worst day can be on free agency day.

Thing is those two top players are not bigger than this team. I'm sure Shero would have loved to snatch 2008 Ryan Malone, Marian Hossa, and a Gonchar type to qb the power play. Thanks to the CBA, those types of players are less and less available on that day and they sure as hell weren't this past summer.
 

jerome garcia

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Dec 27, 2009
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when therrien was canned, shero made it a point to hire the polar opposite of him, in bylsma. that right there should tell you how shero feels the team should be coached. you have to demand things from the players, not ask them to do this and that. if they refuse, they can sit in the pressbox or be traded. is that enough to motivate grown men who make millions of dollars? i dont know. i just know they quit on therrien to get him fired, even though all he did was take them to the finals they season before.
 

mpp9

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Dec 5, 2010
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Who do you replace them with? You bench Kunitz, you're replacing him with Kobasew. You bench Letang, you're replacing him with Niskanen. You bench Neal you're replacing him with D'Agostini. Your best players are going to get more leeway because they are your best players, and them playing is better for your team.

Who is the better version of MT? Martin? I'm telling you, I've watched this game for a long time...Martin would have the same reception from this fanbase that DB has after 10 games. I'd guarantee it.

I think what you're looking for is pie in the sky.

It's not a matter of leeway. It's that they literally have never lost ice time that I can remember. Especially in the playoffs. Again, how is DB holding players accountable?

I don't see how that's pie in the sky thinking.
 

KIRK

Registered User
Aug 2, 2005
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It's not a matter of leeway. It's that they literally have never lost ice time that I can remember. Especially in the playoffs. Again, how is DB holding players accountable?

I don't see how that's pie in the sky thinking.

What are you talking about? Bylsma had been excellent at holding his young players to account.
 

Dipsy Doodle

Rent A Barn
May 28, 2006
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I never said he doesn't get credit for taking Olli when he fell to him. But don't act like picking a guy at 22 who was ranked 10th is the same as picking a guy at 8th who was ranked 17th.

Trevo fell to 18th from 7th, so picking him over Olli wasn't a bad move. Nice try though.

#InSheroWeTrust
#FastestTo200

No Rags, you were talking about who made the NHL first being some sort of draft trump card. It's clearly not, so you're changing your argument.

Hey Ray, why bother investing millions of dollars on scouting resources when you can just check out TSN.ca? :laugh:
 

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