Would you be happy/mad at making the playoffs next season?

[InjuredChoker]

And that's why our team sucks.

Look at the LA Kings - they improved their win percentage from 0.438 to 0.604 and are in the postseason.

Their big offseason additions? Alex Edler, veteran UFA defenseman, and Philip Danault, veteran UFA center and traded a 2nd and a 3rd for Viktor Arvidsson. They also got a solid rookie performance from Sean Durzi, a breakout year from Adrien Kempe and got a few goals from Andreas Athanasiou when healthy. He even finished a plus 7 this year!

How many of these moves were ground breaking, earth shattering moves? Not a single one of them. But what it DOES for the Kings, a team that was in the same boat as the Wings were in 2020-21 and with a prospect pool just as deep, is allow for their youth to come in and play 3rd and 4th line roles or 4th/5th/6th defensemen roles. Or when their kids DO play up the lineup then they're paired with a really savvy vet instead of serial loser Sam Gagner.

I'm not saying go out with a blank check like the 2002 wings and try to build a winner via free agency, but you fill in a couple of gaps because it will help the rest of the lineup play to their appropriate level. That's when you'll see more improvement out of the middle of the lineup where the Red Wings are hurting the most.

kings are further ahead on their rebuild. if we had a guy like byfield on our system, i'd be for similar moves. we don't. and if byfield doesn't pan out, their ceiling probably won't be much higher than what it is now. bubble team/first round fodder.

well maybe second round this year. they are playing against mike smith after all.

their youth actually had to play much higher roles than 4th/5th/6th defenseman. if i'm not mistaken, their whole day 1 starting line up on D was injured for a quite a while. they could handle it as they're pretty stacked with young defenseman.

 

[OgeeOgelthorpe]

kings are further ahead on their rebuild. if we had a guy like byfield on our system, i'd be for similar moves. we don't. and if byfield doesn't pan out, their ceiling probably won't be much higher than what it is now. bubble team/first round fodder.

well maybe second round this year. they are playing against mike smith after all.

their youth actually had to play much higher roles than 4th/5th/6th defenseman. if i'm not mistaken, their whole day 1 starting line up on D was injured for a quite a while. they could handle it as they're pretty stacked with young defenseman.

The Kings are further ahead in their rebuild BECAUSE of the free agents and trades, and because they have a coach who doesn't have his head up his ass. Not because they had more in the cupboard than the Wings. Not because they drafted Byfield who was absolutely inconsequential to their success this year. He was scoring at the same pace as Joe f***ing Veleno.

Here. Sort by ATOI.
2021-22 Los Angeles Kings Roster and Statistics | Hockey-Reference.com

 

[InjuredChoker]

The Kings are further ahead in their rebuild BECAUSE of the free agents and trades, and because they have a coach who doesn't have his head up his ass. Not because they had more in the cupboard than the Wings. Not because they drafted Byfield who was absolutely inconsequential to their success this year. He was scoring at the same pace as Joe f***ing Veleno.

Here. Sort by ATOI.
2021-22 Los Angeles Kings Roster and Statistics | Hockey-Reference.com

you're missing my point.

i see kings being further ahead on their rebuild because their C and D is set (assuming byfield pans out). we don't have that. that's why i think it was good idea for them to make the moves they did in the offseason.

it has nothing to do with byfields lack of production this year. i'd be pissed as hell if he had a quy like byfield on top of everything else we have and yzerman just stood pat this offseason.

we can make some moves this offseason, get up to 95+ points and perhaps make the playoffs too and win some games there. but i don't see long-term upside being much higher than that unless we get another larkin level player.

 

[Rzombo4 prez]

You have total control in who you select. But compared to free agency, this is the "unknown commodity" end of the spectrum. Detroit could have a guy fall in their lap at 8 - or even snag a top 2 pick - and he still becomes the next Joe Veleno (or Pius Suter) instead of the next Dylan Larkin (or better).

Yes, there are a plethora of advantages to drafting as many of your players as possible. But while we can certainly debate when the moment happens, it's a foregone conclusion that there will be a moment when you have enough pieces to start climbing the standings, and you have to use more than just the draft to accomplish what you need to do.

I am not advocating that we avoid UFAs. I am simply pointing out that we cannot rely upon the UFA market to solve our 2C issue. To that end, where we draft is important.

 

[OgeeOgelthorpe]

you're missing my point.

i see kings being further ahead on their rebuild because their C and D is set (assuming byfield pans out). we don't have that. that's why i think it was good idea for them to make the moves they did in the offseason.

it has nothing to do with byfields lack of production this year. i'd be pissed as hell if he had a quy like byfield on top of everything else we have and yzerman just stood pat this offseason.

we can make some moves this offseason, get up to 95+ points and perhaps make the playoffs too and win some games there. but i don't see long-term upside being much higher than that unless we get another larkin level player.

I see your point. I just don't agree with it.

Brandt Clarke is a blue chipper. Turcotte is looking like a bust. The verdict is still out on Byfield. None were at all important in the turnaround that the Kings had last year.

Compare that to Seider already being in the league and looking like a beast. Edvinsson looking more ready for the NHL than Clarke. And Raymond looking like the best player from his class right now. The Kings prospect pool is not ahead of Detroit's. You can argue that Detroit's is equal to or greater than LA's pool.

We can't predict if we're going to get at least a Larkin level player in the best of years so it's crazy to wait around for your crystal ball to clear up and get that perfect prospect before you decide to do anything to improve your team. And the turnaround from absolute gutter trash 70 point team to 99 point team doesn't happen because of only one player. The Kings got there from multiple changes to their roster, and none of them are Larkin level players. The Wings can too. And looking at the pieces they have in waiting we'd be crazy not to try in the next 2 offseasons. Detroit has a chance to really reshape the team's future.

 

[dalem177]

Isn't it also important that, once the team is perceived to be truly shooting for the playoffs, it will be easier to get strong UFAs to consider? I'm not talking the "we want to threepeat and we think we can!" years when players WANT TO COME AND PLAY, but the middle years when someone can look over and say "yeah. I want to be there when they win."? Or maybe I misunderstand the significance of that.

-dale

 

[jkutswings]

I am not advocating that we avoid UFAs. I am simply pointing out that we cannot rely upon the UFA market to solve our 2C issue. To that end, where we draft is important.

I'd generalize that to say we cannot rely upon ANY single option, but fair enough.

 

[Voodoo Glow Skulls]

I see your point. I just don't agree with it.

Brandt Clarke is a blue chipper. Turcotte is looking like a bust. The verdict is still out on Byfield. None were at all important in the turnaround that the Kings had last year.

Compare that to Seider already being in the league and looking like a beast. Edvinsson looking more ready for the NHL than Clarke. And Raymond looking like the best player from his class right now. The Kings prospect pool is not ahead of Detroit's. You can argue that Detroit's is equal to or greater than LA's pool.

We can't predict if we're going to get at least a Larkin level player in the best of years so it's crazy to wait around for your crystal ball to clear up and get that perfect prospect before you decide to do anything to improve your team. And the turnaround from absolute gutter trash 70 point team to 99 point team doesn't happen because of only one player. The Kings got there from multiple changes to their roster, and none of them are Larkin level players. The Wings can too. And looking at the pieces they have in waiting we'd be crazy not to try in the next 2 offseasons. Detroit has a chance to really reshape the team's future.

I understand.

So how do the Wings improve this year?

FA?
Trade?

 

[Retire91]

I personally value a higher draft pick and the slow roll rebuild. But heck no I don't mind making the playoffs as long as its not by bulldozing the team with UFA mediocrity just to tread water as a bubble team.

If a rebuilding unit catches fire and gets in that would be flipping amazing and I think most everyone would love that.

 

[USMarine]

I understand.

So how do the Wings improve this year?

FA?
Trade?

No trades. Draft and FA. Yzerman will be forced to go after some descent UFAs this year to get to the cap floor. A 2C, some LHD, a backup goalie. Then continue the patient draft and wait.

 

[OgeeOgelthorpe]

I understand.

So how do the Wings improve this year?

FA?
Trade?

Both.

There are a few teams to target that are in cap crunches. The Wings also have decent assets to give (they have about 4 LD prospects not named Simon Edvinsson that have NHL potential, plus 2nd round picks.) Calgary might be hurting. Vegas and Vancouver as well. Also look for guys that might be in lower roles on crowded teams that might just need the break. I'm sure there are some other 3rd liners hoping to get real 2nd line minutes.

There are also assets like Lindstrom, Zadina, Hronek, Erne, Fabbri, Suter and possibly even Veleno, Vrana and Bertuzzi that can be added to trades. Obviously you can't trade Zadina for an upgrade on his own but he might be enticing in part of a package.

Go big on free agents. Expect the overpay but we can do so in a way that won't impact the future cap situation too much because of how much room there is. And show good faith by trading some later conditional picks (4th, 5th, 6th if they sign, 7th if they don't) for signing rights for some of the guys you're looking at.

Supplement through the draft. Keep your first and second round picks this year. The Washington 2nd is probably worth more in a trade than in actual player value unless someone like Danny Zhilkin, Cam Lund or Noah Warren falls to that slot.

 

[SoupNazi]

No trades. Draft and FA. Yzerman will be forced to go after some descent UFAs this year to get to the cap floor. A 2C, some LHD, a backup goalie. Then continue the patient draft and wait.

A little bit ago you were advocating a Chychrun trade.

 

[OgeeOgelthorpe]

I personally value a higher draft pick and the slow roll rebuild. But heck no I don't mind making the playoffs as long as its not by bulldozing the team with UFA mediocrity just to tread water as a bubble team.

If a rebuilding unit catches fire and gets in that would be flipping amazing and I think most everyone would love that.

You can't slow roll all the way. Eventually you're going to have guys age out. Larkin and Vrana are 26. Bertuzzi is 27. In a slow roll Detroit isn't ready to do shit until 2026 or 2027, but by then you're looking to replace those guys because their performances are slipping and they're on their 3rd contracts and almost into their 4th.

When you're building a team you have to be aggressive and understand that you're going to have a lot of moving pieces. Not every player you have on your team is going to be there for a decade or more. Not every player is going to be a draftee of the team. And you have to understand that not all drafts are the same. Chris Phillips was a 1st overall pick in 1996, but in an average year he'd have gone #7 to #10. So sometimes it's ok to trade a pick.

Look at it from a project management perspective: You're setting project milestones and building a timeline. In a cap world your timeline looks something like this; year 1-3 rebuild. 4-5 climbing up. Year 6-10 contention. Year 10+ decline.

St. Louis and Tampa are probably the 2 best examples of that. Contending windows are much shorter now due to the cap. And who knows? Maybe you might get surprised along the way like Chicago did.

 

[Voodoo Glow Skulls]

Both.

There are a few teams to target that are in cap crunches. The Wings also have decent assets to give (they have about 4 LD prospects not named Simon Edvinsson that have NHL potential, plus 2nd round picks.) Calgary might be hurting. Vegas and Vancouver as well. Also look for guys that might be in lower roles on crowded teams that might just need the break. I'm sure there are some other 3rd liners hoping to get real 2nd line minutes.

There are also assets like Lindstrom, Zadina, Hronek, Erne, Fabbri, Suter and possibly even Veleno, Vrana and Bertuzzi that can be added to trades. Obviously you can't trade Zadina for an upgrade on his own but he might be enticing in part of a package.

Go big on free agents. Expect the overpay but we can do so in a way that won't impact the future cap situation too much because of how much room there is. And show good faith by trading some later conditional picks (4th, 5th, 6th if they sign, 7th if they don't) for signing rights for some of the guys you're looking at.

Supplement through the draft. Keep your first and second round picks this year. The Washington 2nd is probably worth more in a trade than in actual player value unless someone like Danny Zhilkin, Cam Lund or Noah Warren falls to that slot.

I like the idea, but it's just that.

On UFA's, I don't think this is the year to target most UFA's. If you want to go big on UFA's...

Who do you target?

 

[HoweFan]

Why wouldn’t I be happy. It would mean we had pretty close to a hundred points. At some point you have to start winning and not worry about the lottery every year

 

[USMarine]

A little bit ago you were advocating a Chychrun trade.

Yeah and then everyone pooped on my trade details.

 

[OgeeOgelthorpe]

I like the idea, but it's just that.

On UFA's, I don't think this is the year to target most UFA's. If you want to go big on UFA's...

Who do you target?

At center: pick 1
Copp
Trocheck
Strome

At wing: pick 1
Palat
Burakovsky
Nichushkin
Niederreiter

Defense - pick 2
Klingberg
Zadorov
Manson
Rutta
Maatta
Schultz
Chiarot
Gudbranson
Merrill

 

[SoupNazi]

Yeah and then everyone pooped on my trade details.

And? Because people thought your trade was unrealistic you are no longer interested in trades?

 

[USMarine]

And? Because people thought your trade was unrealistic you are no longer interested in trades?

You figured me out

 

[Roomba With a Bauer]

Detroit has too good of a roster now to get a top-3 pick next year. If you have a full season of healthy Vrana and Bertuzzi not missing every game in Canada the team would have likely just missed the wild card, and to top that off the Wings have to spend almost 18 million just to hit the floor next year.

This team isn't a lottery team next year.

 

[USMarine]

Detroit has too good of a roster now to get a top-3 pick next year. If you have a full season of healthy Vrana and Bertuzzi not missing every game in Canada the team would have likely just missed the wild card, and to top that off the Wings have to spend almost 18 million just to hit the floor next year.

This team isn't a lottery team next year.

Folks don't realize how much we HAVE to spend this off-season. Just to get to the floor we will be getting some high dollar players. Edvinsson is going to Seider his rookie year too. Very good outlook.

 

[InjuredChoker]

I see your point. I just don't agree with it.

Brandt Clarke is a blue chipper. Turcotte is looking like a bust. The verdict is still out on Byfield. None were at all important in the turnaround that the Kings had last year.

Compare that to Seider already being in the league and looking like a beast. Edvinsson looking more ready for the NHL than Clarke. And Raymond looking like the best player from his class right now. The Kings prospect pool is not ahead of Detroit's. You can argue that Detroit's is equal to or greater than LA's pool.

We can't predict if we're going to get at least a Larkin level player in the best of years so it's crazy to wait around for your crystal ball to clear up and get that perfect prospect before you decide to do anything to improve your team. And the turnaround from absolute gutter trash 70 point team to 99 point team doesn't happen because of only one player. The Kings got there from multiple changes to their roster, and none of them are Larkin level players. The Wings can too. And looking at the pieces they have in waiting we'd be crazy not to try in the next 2 offseasons. Detroit has a chance to really reshape the team's future.

turcotte is probably a bust and he and byfield had pretty much nothing to do with their turnaround last year. it was their FA and trade additions last year, along with the growth of their young blueliners. one could say we have at least as good prospect pool as they have, yeah. but there's no top level center in our system. i'll die on that hill that it needs to be addressed.

and yeah, turnaround from 70 point team to 99 point team doesn't happen because of one player. but i'd be a lot more comfortable to make those moves if we were set at C and D. we can pretty easily become a playoff team, but to get to the level of current tampa or the past hawks/kings teams, i think we need another larkin. if byfield doesn't pan out, kings likely won't take the next step either.

i'd look to make bigger moves in the 2023 offseason, after another top 10 pick and hopefully stud center in the system.

 

[Frk It]

turcotte is probably a bust and he and byfield had pretty much nothing to do with their turnaround last year. it was their FA and trade additions last year, along with the growth of their young blueliners. one could say we have at least as good prospect pool as they have, yeah. but there's no top level center in our system. i'll die on that hill that it needs to be addressed.

and yeah, turnaround from 70 point team to 99 point team doesn't happen because of one player. but i'd be a lot more comfortable to make those moves if we were set at C and D. we can pretty easily become a playoff team, but to get to the level of current tampa or the past hawks/kings teams, i think we need another larkin. if byfield doesn't pan out, kings likely won't take the next step either.

i'd look to make bigger moves in the 2023 offseason, after another top 10 pick and hopefully stud center in the system.

What if your 2023 drafted center takes 2-3 years to make the team and hit their stride?

What if we could get as good a center next year at 13 as we could at 6 and we didn’t try to improve our team?

Do you think we are going to finish dead last or bottom 3? Cause if not, what’s the harm in starting to make moves to improve the team.

 

[njx9]

What if your 2023 drafted center takes 2-3 years to make the team and hit their stride?

Then the "keep tanking" advocates get to push another 3-4 years of tanking to replace Larkin, Vrana and Bert, while hoping the Raymonds and Seiders don't get tired of endless losing and demand out in the meantime.

All of which assumes that we actually draft a C, and don't take another D or W because BPA.

 

[InjuredChoker]

What if your 2023 drafted center takes 2-3 years to make the team and hit their stride?

What if we could get as good a center next year at 13 as we could at 6 and we didn’t try to improve our team?

Do you think we are going to finish dead last or bottom 3? Cause if not, what’s the harm in starting to make moves to improve the team.

if the 2023 drafted center takes 2-3 years to make the team, he's most likely a bust. top 10 pick centers should make the team sooner, especially on a non-contender.

i don't see that much of an issue with second scenario. there's opportunity to overpay every july 1st.

i think we would pick somewhere around where we pick this year, unless we add 2C and top4 LD. but if those additions would't fix the long-term issues at C and D, i wouldn't bother.