Would you be happy/mad at making the playoffs next season?

[jkutswings]

if the 2023 drafted center takes 2-3 years to make the team, he's most likely a bust. top 10 pick centers should make the team sooner, especially on a non-contender.

So all these guys are busts?

2009: Schenn (1 / 8 / 54 games in D+1/2/3). Kadri (1 / 29 / 21 / 48 games in D+1/2/3/4)
2010: Granlund, D+3
2011: Huberdeau, D+2. Strome, D+3
2013: Horvat, D+2
2016: Strome, D+2 (7 games, D+4 full season). Marner, D+2.
2017: Keller (technically D+1, but only 3 games)

Yes, you'd love to get a McDavid or Matthews no-brainer who will jump straight to the big team. But it's entirely possible to land a guy that takes 2-3 years to become a top 6 NHL center.

And to circle back to the previous point, you can swing a trade or sign a free agent in addition to drafting. No single approach is meant to be a realistic catch-all.

 

[InjuredChoker]

So all these guys are busts?

2009: Schenn (1 / 8 / 54 games in D+1/2/3). Kadri (1 / 29 / 21 / 48 games in D+1/2/3/4)
2010: Granlund, D+3
2011: Huberdeau, D+2. Strome, D+3
2013: Horvat, D+2
2016: Strome, D+2 (7 games, D+4 full season). Marner, D+2.
2017: Keller (technically D+1, but only 3 games)

Yes, you'd love to get a McDavid or Matthews no-brainer who will jump straight to the big team. But it's entirely possible to land a guy that takes 2-3 years to become a top 6 NHL center.

And to circle back to the previous point, you can swing a trade or sign a free agent in addition to drafting. No single approach is meant to be a realistic catch-all.

that's a list of wingers, centers who made the team on D+2, dylan strome and nazem kadri. i don't think dylan strome cuts it, as so far in his career he's had one year where he's played like high end C. so yeah, if your top 10 pick center isn't on the roster by then, he's most likely a bust or at least relative bust. i guess schenn too but he didn't develop into a high-echelon 2C until almost decade after being drafted.

i never said one approach is catch-all, in fact i said the opposite. just that one option is by far the most proven way to find top centers.

if we can steal young larkin-level player from some team, hey, i'm all for it. no need to tank next year then.

 

[pz29]

I will be really mad if we win the cup next year since then we will draft really late. And our reason to exist is to get draft picks, not win games.

 

[Retire91]

You can't slow roll all the way. Eventually you're going to have guys age out. Larkin and Vrana are 26. Bertuzzi is 27. In a slow roll Detroit isn't ready to do shit until 2026 or 2027, but by then you're looking to replace those guys because their performances are slipping and they're on their 3rd contracts and almost into their 4th.

When you're building a team you have to be aggressive and understand that you're going to have a lot of moving pieces. Not every player you have on your team is going to be there for a decade or more. Not every player is going to be a draftee of the team. And you have to understand that not all drafts are the same. Chris Phillips was a 1st overall pick in 1996, but in an average year he'd have gone #7 to #10. So sometimes it's ok to trade a pick.

Look at it from a project management perspective: You're setting project milestones and building a timeline. In a cap world your timeline looks something like this; year 1-3 rebuild. 4-5 climbing up. Year 6-10 contention. Year 10+ decline.

St. Louis and Tampa are probably the 2 best examples of that. Contending windows are much shorter now due to the cap. And who knows? Maybe you might get surprised along the way like Chicago did.

yeah Detroit really missed the window where it should have resigned to soiling the bed and selling off assets. The period of time many people are calling us out for tanking was mostly season of this team just simply being that bad. Sure we could have brought in plugs but it would have served absolutely no value to making us good and would have just played us out of the draft picks we desperately needed. Draft lottery luck just was what it was. We might have Brady Tkachuk over Zadina but then other things did go our way too so its not black and white. Larkin and Bertuzzi aging out is another product of the streak and how much long term damage it did to the franchise. Owners prerogative but still bitter at how much mediocrity the streak cost the fans.

So I am half in agreement it might be time to load up and roll out before Larkin and Bertuzzi get too vetrany lol. I would still like to see another high pick season but I won't cry fowl if we don't unless the UFA parade are truly worthless plugs.

I will be really mad if we win the cup next year since then we will draft really late. And out reason to exist is to get draft picks, not win games.

This feels like a pretty bad faith argument. No one is saying this, plus you need high draft picks to build a window for the cup so its circular logic, unless you are Boston and Toronto gives away its second overall to you after a Norris defenseman and Vezina goalie walk on your team from UFA when you already have a competitive core.

 

[pz29]

yeah Detroit really missed the window where it should have resigned to soiling the bed and selling off assets. The period of time many people are calling us out for tanking was mostly season of this team just simply being that bad. Sure we could have brought in plugs but it would have served absolutely no value to making us good and would have just played us out of the draft picks we desperately needed. Draft lottery luck just was what it was. We might have Brady Tkachuk over Zadina but then other things did go our way too so its not black and white. Larkin and Bertuzzi aging out is another product of the streak and how much long term damage it did to the franchise. Owners prerogative but still bitter at how much mediocrity the streak cost the fans.

So I am half in agreement it might be time to load up and roll out before Larkin and Bertuzzi get too vetrany lol. I would still like to see another high pick season but I won't cry fowl if we don't unless the UFA parade are truly worthless plugs.



This feels like a pretty bad faith argument. No one is saying this, plus you need high draft picks to build a window for the cup so its circular logic, unless you are Boston and Toronto gives away its second overall to you after a Norris defenseman and Vezina goalie walk on your team from UFA when you already have a competitive core.

I don't think you know what "bad faith" means. The argument that we should not make the playoffs because "we need picks" come from people who like to wallow in the misery of an unending "rebuild" for rebuild's sake. This may be crazy, but I enjoy watching them win games, not being Buffalo or Edmonton for another 30 years but have top picks every year.

 

[Pavels Dog]

Look at it from a project management perspective: You're setting project milestones and building a timeline. In a cap world your timeline looks something like this; year 1-3 rebuild. 4-5 climbing up. Year 6-10 contention. Year 10+ decline.

St. Louis and Tampa are probably the 2 best examples of that. Contending windows are much shorter now due to the cap. And who knows? Maybe you might get surprised along the way like Chicago did.

St.Louis and Tampa are both good examples of how fluid team-building is. Since the lockout, Tampa's longest playoff streak is 5 seasons (current) and the Blues had 6 seasons.

Tampa missed the playoffs in 2013 and were in the cup finals 2015.
They missed the playoffs in 2017, won the cup in 2020.

St Louis missed the playoffs in 2018 and won the cup in 2019.

Things don't have to be as linear as you describe it and I think the cap world is less about having shorter contending windows and more about needing to be prepared to re-tool and sometimes take a step back to take two steps forward.

 

[Retire91]

I don't think you know what "bad faith" means. The argument that we should not make the playoffs because "we need picks" come from people who like to wallow in the misery of an unending "rebuild" for rebuild's sake. This may be crazy, but I enjoy watching them win games, not being Buffalo or Edmonton for another 30 years but have top picks every year.

I just can't get behind such a sweeping generalization. It's nice to have a management team I feel we can trust to do the right thing in the right way at the right time.

 

[OgeeOgelthorpe]

St.Louis and Tampa are both good examples of how fluid team-building is. Since the lockout, Tampa's longest playoff streak is 5 seasons (current) and the Blues had 6 seasons.

Tampa missed the playoffs in 2013 and were in the cup finals 2015.
They missed the playoffs in 2017, won the cup in 2020.

St Louis missed the playoffs in 2018 and won the cup in 2019.

Things don't have to be as linear as you describe it and I think the cap world is less about having shorter contending windows and more about needing to be prepared to re-tool and sometimes take a step back to take two steps forward.

Of course it’s not that linear. Shit happens and not everything goes to plan. But you still set goals and objectives with expected timelines and do your best to meet them.

St. Louis missed the postseason and was in danger of doing so the following season because they replaced Hitchcock with Yeo.

Tampa missed with a winning record in 2017 but I believe that was the season Stamkos broke a leg. And 2013 was the first and only time Yzerman fired a head coach.

 

[GMR]

Heck after 6 years of no playoff hockey, I'd be 100% thrilled to make the playoffs. Even if we got swept in the first round. Just to make the playoffs would be sweet.

Yep. And 10 years since they've won a series! That's hard to stomach.

 

[MBH]

Let’s say the Wings sign someone like Trocheck/Strome/Copp and a veteran defenseman in free agency, then a new coach gets them to overachieve and they make the playoffs as an 8 seed.

Are you happy or mad at this?

Thrilled.
But I think it's at least one more year away.
Longer if the Larkin/Bert negotiations don't pan out.

St.Louis and Tampa are both good examples of how fluid team-building is. Since the lockout, Tampa's longest playoff streak is 5 seasons (current) and the Blues had 6 seasons.

Tampa missed the playoffs in 2013 and were in the cup finals 2015.
They missed the playoffs in 2017, won the cup in 2020.

St Louis missed the playoffs in 2018 and won the cup in 2019.

Things don't have to be as linear as you describe it and I think the cap world is less about having shorter contending windows and more about needing to be prepared to re-tool and sometimes take a step back to take two steps forward.

I agree with this.
We definitely needed 2-3 years in the top 10 picks of the draft.

But look at the Rangers.
3 years out of the playoffs.
Never a point percentage under .470.
And here they are. Back again, even though both lottery picks have underperformed.

LA Kings are back in the playoffs after three years out - despite none of their lottery picks are providing anything meaningful.

 

[Shaman464]

I agree with this.
We definitely needed 2-3 years in the top 10 picks of the draft.

But look at the Rangers.
3 years out of the playoffs.
Never a point percentage under .470.
And here they are. Back again, even though both lottery picks have underperformed.

LA Kings are back in the playoffs after three years out - despite none of their lottery picks are providing anything meaningful.

Yeah, having the best winger in the league who wants to live in your city and play for your team doesn't hurt, nor does a Norris caliber defenseman rising from a later round pick. Nor does Kreider channeling his inner Cheechoo.

 

[MBH]

Yeah, having the best winger in the league who wants to live in your city and play for your team doesn't hurt, nor does a Norris caliber defenseman rising from a later round pick. Nor does Kreider channeling his inner Cheechoo.

Stop with the defeatist attitude..
The Rangers didn't get some "hometown discount."
He makes $11.6M a year. Panarin is very well paid. The second highest paid player in the league.

He wanted to go to NYR even though they sucked.
Fox wanted to go to NYR even though they sucked.

They found a way to get better.
LA went out and got Danault and Arvidsson and they got better.

If you want to waste your offseason acquiring the Suters and Filppulas and Staals of the world while acquiring top 10 picksm get prepared for a Buffalo Sabres existence.

 

[Retire91]

Stop with the defeatist attitude..
The Rangers didn't get some "hometown discount."
He makes $11.6M a year. Panarin is very well paid. The second highest paid player in the league.

He wanted to go to NYR even though they sucked.
Fox wanted to go to NYR even though they sucked.

They found a way to get better.
LA went out and got Danault and Arvidsson and they got better.

If you want to waste your offseason acquiring the Suters and Filppulas and Staals of the world while acquiring top 10 picksm get prepared for a Buffalo Sabres existence.

That is only a problem if that is your team's 'permanent' measure. If your long term permanent strategy is the lottery then yes go ahead and suck ballz forever. Does anyone here truly think anyone is saying that?

You can't describe what is happening to the wings on a bumper sticker. Its more complicated.

I don't know how anyone can genuinely look at the team's roster and be like yep just a few UFA and we are gold. No one seems to talk about the depth of this teams talent void enough. The streak didn't just leave this team bad. It left this team as one of the most historically bad teams that there has ever been in the NHL. I am not sure what Holland left could have contended in the AHL playoffs. Before Seider this might have been one of the worst defenses in the 'entire' history of the NHL. You can not UFA your way out of a mess like that.

I personally would like to see one more season where we don't stop gap with UFA and pick up another top 10. However I am not all over people saying this is the offseason to load up. And I am one of the most slow roll people on the board. I think this coming season is the absolute 'last' season I would primarily chase the lottery and its only because of how bad our lottery luck has been trying to fill the top lines and make up for busts like Cholo, Zadina and Ras.

 

[MBH]

That is only a problem if that is your team's 'permanent' measure. If your long term permanent strategy is the lottery then yes go ahead and suck ballz forever. Does anyone here truly think anyone is saying that?

You can't describe what is happening to the wings on a bumper sticker. Its more complicated.

I don't know how anyone can genuinely look at the team's roster and be like yep just a few UFA and we are gold. No one seems to talk about the depth of this teams talent void enough. The streak didn't just leave this team bad. It left this team as one of the most historically bad teams that there has ever been in the NHL. I am not sure what Holland left could have contended in the AHL playoffs. Before Seider this might have been one of the worst defenses in the 'entire' history of the NHL. You can not UFA your way out of a mess like that.

I personally would like to see one more season where we don't stop gap with UFA and pick up another top 10. However I am not all over people saying this is the offseason to load up. And I am one of the most slow roll people on the board. I think this coming season is the absolute 'last' season I would primarily chase the lottery and its only because of how bad our lottery luck has been trying to fill the top lines and make up for busts like Cholo, Zadina and Ras.

None of that matters.
Nobody had the Kings making the playoffs this year - especially with Doughty out half the year.

Take the first half wings.
Improve on Greiss with a legit 1A/1B
Improve on Suter with a Copp or a Trocheck.
Improve on Dekeyser/Staal with 2 legit LDs.

You don't think that team is a more legit threat to make the playoffs than we were?

Bert-Larkin-Raymond
Vrana-Trocheck-Zadina
Fabbri-Veleno-Berggren
Sundqvist-Rasmussen-Erne
With Suter/Stepens as reserves

Sign Edler, Zadorov.

Zadorov-Seider
Edler-Hronek
Edvinsson-Lindstrom

Sign holtby.
Ned/Holtby

With Boston's inevitable decline, I think that puts us in the running.
And if it doesn't? Who cares.
We get a higher pick.

 

[Roomba With a Bauer]

I personally would like to see one more season where we don't stop gap with UFA and pick up another top 10.

The Wings have lucked into two 1OA quality players in Seider and Raymond, and might have another one in Edvinsson. Cossa's WHL playoffs stats are incredibly good. Veleno looks like he will be a very good third line center. Soderblom, AlJo, Berggren, Wallinder all look like they have a good shot at being solid depth. It's time to start speeding up the process.

 

[Retire91]

The Wings have lucked into two 1OA quality players in Seider and Raymond, and might have another one in Edvinsson. Cossa's WHL playoffs stats are incredibly good. Veleno looks like he will be a very good third line center. Soderblom, AlJo, Berggren, Wallinder all look like they have a good shot at being solid depth. It's time to start speeding up the process.

yep I am on the fence, its a great core although there are some unproven parts of it their development is looking awesome. That is why I would advocate for a little insurance but I am not steadfast. I think with the success of these drafts it could be time to lift the tank There are huge benefits to seeing an unrestrained Yzerman move forward he has been really conservative so far IMO.

 

[USMarine]

None of that matters.
Nobody had the Kings making the playoffs this year - especially with Doughty out half the year.

Take the first half wings.
Improve on Greiss with a legit 1A/1B
Improve on Suter with a Copp or a Trocheck.
Improve on Dekeyser/Staal with 2 legit LDs.

You don't think that team is a more legit threat to make the playoffs than we were?

Bert-Larkin-Raymond
Vrana-Trocheck-Zadina
Fabbri-Veleno-Berggren
Sundqvist-Rasmussen-Erne
With Suter/Stepens as reserves

Sign Edler, Zadorov.

Zadorov-Seider
Edler-Hronek
Edvinsson-Lindstrom

Sign holtby.
Ned/Holtby

With Boston's inevitable decline, I think that puts us in the running.
And if it doesn't? Who cares.
We get a higher pick.

I like it. Trocheck/Copp + Edler + Zadorov + Holtby.

However this team is probably still beneath the cap floor. We have to spend roughly $18-20 million minimum with Fabbri on LTIR to start the season.

Zadorov (4) + Edler (4) + Holtby (3) + Trocheck/Copp (7). Might as well sign Palat or Forsberg too for good measure. This way we can dump assets at the TDL if needed without going beneath the floor.

 

[Roomba With a Bauer]

yep I am on the fence, its a great core although there are some unproven parts of it their development is looking awesome. That is why I would advocate for a little insurance but I am not steadfast. I think with the success of these drafts it could be time to lift the tank There are huge benefits to seeing an unrestrained Yzerman move forward he has been really conservative so far IMO.

The only way Yzerman could realistically field a roster that could land a top-10 pick next year is to spend 18 million on cap dumps for picks, and too many teams are bidding for those. That means he's going to actually have to sign some decent players to large deals to reach the floor.

 

[Retire91]

None of that matters.
Nobody had the Kings making the playoffs this year - especially with Doughty out half the year.

Take the first half wings.
Improve on Greiss with a legit 1A/1B
Improve on Suter with a Copp or a Trocheck.
Improve on Dekeyser/Staal with 2 legit LDs.

You don't think that team is a more legit threat to make the playoffs than we were?

Bert-Larkin-Raymond
Vrana-Trocheck-Zadina
Fabbri-Veleno-Berggren
Sundqvist-Rasmussen-Erne
With Suter/Stepens as reserves

Sign Edler, Zadorov.

Zadorov-Seider
Edler-Hronek
Edvinsson-Lindstrom

Sign holtby.
Ned/Holtby

With Boston's inevitable decline, I think that puts us in the running.
And if it doesn't? Who cares.
We get a higher pick.

IMO that is not enough depth for the team to be taken seriously. I also feel skeptical about Berggren and I suspect he is someone we will need to fill in another hole in the top 6. I would rather see the team use this next season to improve the bottom 6 while shooting for drafting some more top 6. It's just my preference though. I am aware Larkin and Bert don't have forever. If the wings pull the trigger this off season I will still root for them.

 

[Shaman464]

None of that matters.
Nobody had the Kings making the playoffs this year - especially with Doughty out half the year.

Take the first half wings.
Improve on Greiss with a legit 1A/1B
Improve on Suter with a Copp or a Trocheck.
Improve on Dekeyser/Staal with 2 legit LDs.

You don't think that team is a more legit threat to make the playoffs than we were?

Bert-Larkin-Raymond
Vrana-Trocheck-Zadina
Fabbri-Veleno-Berggren
Sundqvist-Rasmussen-Erne
With Suter/Stepens as reserves

Sign Edler, Zadorov.

Zadorov-Seider
Edler-Hronek
Edvinsson-Lindstrom

Sign holtby.
Ned/Holtby

With Boston's inevitable decline, I think that puts us in the running.
And if it doesn't? Who cares.
We get a higher pick.

Ah going the mid 00s-mid 10s Leaf's route and spending big on dudes that will never replicate the production on your team route. We will draft Auston Matthews for sure this way.

 

[jkutswings]

Ah going the mid 00s-mid 10s Leaf's route and spending big on dudes that will never replicate the production on your team route. We will draft Auston Matthews for sure this way.

The same Auston Matthews who has yet to win a single playoff series?

There are many ways to build a championship roster. For every Pittsburgh or Chicago there's also a Boston or St Louis.

 

[Shaman464]

The same Auston Matthews who has yet to win a single playoff series?

There are many ways to build a championship roster. For every Pittsburgh or Chicago there's also a Boston or St Louis.

That was sarcasm.

 

[dragonballgtz]

If we made the playoffs off the backs of our young players then I wouldn't mind at all. But if it's because we signed temp veterans then I would mind a bit.

 

[Run the Jewels]

I wouldn't go overboard acquiring expensive free agents with the hope of making the playoffs, but if we follow the Yzerplan and make the playoffs that would be totally fine.

 

[MBH]

IMO that is not enough depth for the team to be taken seriously. I also feel skeptical about Berggren and I suspect he is someone we will need to fill in another hole in the top 6. I would rather see the team use this next season to improve the bottom 6 while shooting for drafting some more top 6. It's just my preference though. I am aware Larkin and Bert don't have forever. If the wings pull the trigger this off season I will still root for them.

Taken seriously? By whom?
Who cares?
The goal this season should be an improvement. The Wings need to improve as much as they can without taking terrible contracts.

If Seider, Edvinsson, Raymond, whoever we pick this year, Zadina and Rasmussen aren't enough to base the turn around on, then Yzerman+Holland failed.