GWT: World Cup - Group B (England and USA Advance)

[Jersey Fresh]

qualifying? England cruised easily. 10 matches, 8 wins and 2 draws with the best goal differential of any team in any group (the San Marino lads certainly help that of course). It's Nations League where they looked like shit.

Yes, and they had some clunkers among that run like draws against a team like Hungary is the point (before getting pasted by them in the NL). That only makes discarding this past US game more compelling.

 

[TheMoreYouKnow]

Southgate's teflon, especially now that Potter is at Chelsea

I think the media is against him already and just waiting for a chance to pounce. Not sure if he will want to spend the next 2 years managing under the media microscope given how brutal that tends to be in London.

 

[cgf]

I don't really see how the Danes score in that strategy either. I mean you can hope to hit them in transition but you have to open the game to do that, which you seem to be suggesting they would understand not to do. Like I said you can set piece it, man do I miss Miles Robinson this tournament for the US there.

I get that if you don't score it is toothless, I kind of think one of the more interesting parts with the younger guys is they generate a heck of a lot more offense just because they are more talented than what we are used to. Now they squander those chances, no true central forward continues to be a complete disaster. But generally they have generated a ton of chances, with a few games in qualifying notwithstanding. But I think they still break people down.

It wasn't just down to England. I think midfield wise we prefer a team like Denmark especially if we are talking similar tiers like was being discussed earlier. But like you said it could play out very differently.

My initial point was about how performances can vary wildly from match to match so we've veered from the point quite a bit but if both teams played their best and your press was able to disrupt their possession game, then they would play on the counter until your press started slowing down enough for them to go back to their possession game.

...assuming they hadn't already taken a lead via a counter or set piece, as they are much more comfortable playing that sort of game than a team like England, who are much more vulnerable when not controlling the ball.

As a BuLi fan I like a lot of american kids, but when I watch the NT their possession game is much more stale than it could/should be and I don't see why the danes would have any more trouble dealing with it than they did the half-assed effort the French put in against them in the NL

 

[cgf]

Until he didn't. I mean here's the reality of it - if Southgate loses to Senegal, he's probably out. And I think that's broadly fair. It's a results-driven business and every tournament requires a reevaluation. It would have been silly to call for Jogi's head in 2014 or even 2016. And no-one seriously did. 2018 changed everything. The fact he wasn't gone then is what set the team back by a cycle.

My point was that Jogi's flaws were obvious before the results caught up...and had they been addressed earlier we may have added another title in 2016 and our next generation may have been better integrated in 2018, with less complacency being imbued in the team from the top down.

It's not like Jogi hadn't already cost us that SF in 2012...even though Spain would've still been favorites in the final.

 

[Live in the Now]

One thing I will give Southgate credit for - and this directly responds to the "watching these guys every week" (and, as you know, I do too!) - is that he largely picks based on form for the NT and not club form, and I think his choices in that regard have been borne out.

Maguire's had two rough seasons back to back. He's been consistently very good for England. Based on club form, he'd be totally gone from the set-up, but instead he was arguably the best CB at Euro 2020.

People were calling for Sterling to be dropped before Euro 2020, and instead he was the best English player at the tournament.

I know you want Trent in, but Trippier and Walker have both been historically better for the NT. James would've started over all of them if he hadn't gotten hurt last month.

Southgate's issue, if I'm being honest, isn't team selection. It's rare that I look at an England line-up and think "yeah, he got that wrong." It's his on-field tactics that suck ass.

Perhaps surprisingly I don't think the Trent omission is a really big deal. His lineups are bizarre in general beyond just that, and he doesn't use his time before tournaments properly to introduce players into the team. Tactics are strange too. And the NT form thing is a good point but Henderson is in horrible form for Liverpool and for England so I don't know how anyone could explain that selection.

Now that I have time to type though I should point out that these long tournament runs are not something that should automatically be held in his favor. The prestige point of these tournaments is to keep the highest ranked teams from facing each other for as long as is realistically possible. You aren't supposed to play a favorite until the QF, but maybe that favorite will slip up and maybe you never play a favorite at all. Triumphing against Wales, US, Iran, Senegal, that's a minimum expectation someone shouldn't get credit for here. Even if you lump teams into three tiers like I do, England are at the very top end of that middle tier, would be in the top tier if they were managed properly but they aren't. In the Euros they had to send better teams packing but they also got to play at home. The point being that when you manage an England, Germany, Netherlands, Portugal, France, Argentina, Brazil, Spain, Italy, etc the criticism should be super harsh because there are other people out there equipped to handle the job.

 

[Wee Baby Seamus]

Perhaps surprisingly I don't think the Trent omission is a really big deal. His lineups are bizarre in general beyond just that, and he doesn't use his time before tournaments properly to introduce players into the team. Tactics are strange too. And the NT form thing is a good point but Henderson is in horrible form for Liverpool and for England so I don't know how anyone could explain that selection.

Now that I have time to type though I should point out that these long tournament runs are not something that should automatically be held in his favor. The prestige point of these tournaments is to keep the highest ranked teams from facing each other for as long as is realistically possible. You aren't supposed to play a favorite until the QF, but maybe that favorite will slip up and maybe you never play a favorite at all. Triumphing against Wales, US, Iran, Senegal, that's a minimum expectation someone shouldn't get credit for here. Even if you lump teams into three tiers like I do, England are at the very top end of that middle tier, would be in the top tier if they were managed properly but they aren't. In the Euros they had to send better teams packing but they also got to play at home. The point being that when you manage an England, Germany, Netherlands, Portugal, France, Argentina, Brazil, Spain, Italy, etc the criticism should be super harsh because there are other people out there equipped to handle the job.

Hendo was in today because he knew they were in barring a CATASTROPHE. That's a locker room selection in a dead rubber.

Totally agree with paragraph #2!

My point was that Jogi's flaws were obvious before the results caught up...and had they been addressed earlier we may have added another title in 2016 and our next generation may have been better integrated in 2018, with less complacency being impuded in the team from the top down.

It's not like Jogi hadn't already cost us that SF in 2012...even though Spain would've still been favorites in the final.

That 2012 team was better than the 2014 team, IMO.

 

[Live in the Now]

Hendo was in today because he knew they were in barring a CATASTROPHE. That's a locker room selection in a dead rubber.

Totally agree with paragraph #2!

Yeah but he played against the US as well when Southgate decided that they would play for 0-0 (another strange decision)

 

[Wee Baby Seamus]

Yeah but he played against the US as well when Southgate decided that they would play for 0-0 (another strange decision)

I never said his subs were right

 

[cgf]

That 2012 team was better than the 2014 team, IMO.

I dunno about that. Boateng took a big step when he connected with Pep in Bavaria and having him + mats in front of Neuer was huge for us. The midfield and attack were even more stacked though, so I can see the argument.

That lineup against Italy is more embarrassing than any overreaction Pep has ever had.

EDIT:
I think I'd go with the 2016 team instead, Sane & co already starting to breakthrough, Boa-Mats-Neuer still at the height of their powers, just the best of the both world if only the coach could've been arsed.

 

[jcs0218]

Just like on January 23rd 1984 at Madison Square Garden, when Hulk Hogan broke out of the camel clutch and defeated The Iron Sheik to win the WWF Championship, America wins again!!!

The US of A advances!

 

[TheMoreYouKnow]

My point was that Jogi's flaws were obvious before the results caught up...and had they been addressed earlier we may have added another title in 2016 and our next generation may have been better integrated in 2018, with less complacency being imbued in the team from the top down.

It's not like Jogi hadn't already cost us that SF in 2012...even though Spain would've still been favorites in the final.

Yeah and if you remember correctly, I criticized Jogi well before 2018 as well. But perhaps tellingly our criticisms were pretty different, so it's not like there was broad agreement on why exactly Jogi wasn't all that.

 

[cgf]

Yeah and if you remember correctly, I criticized Jogi well before 2018 as well. But perhaps tellingly our criticisms were pretty different, so it's not like there was broad agreement on why exactly Jogi wasn't all that.

I was gunna let you off the hook for those mistakes

 

[Wee Baby Seamus]

I dunno about that. Boateng took a big step when he connected with Pep in Bavaria and having him + mats in front of Neuer was huge for us. The midfield and attack were even more stacked though, so I can see the argument.

That lineup against Italy is still more embarrassing than any overreaction Pep has ever had.

That's true - Boateng as a RB in 2012 was a HUGE liability, IIRC. Boateng + Hummels is a big upgrade on Hummels + Badstuber, even if I wasn't crazy about Howedes on the left in 2014.

Ozil was just amazing in 2012, and that's what has stuck with me.

 

[codswallop]

I do have to once again say that the U.S. commentary is a hometown commentary in a pretty blatant way. I think they mentioned an Iranian player by name like all of 5 times in the entire match. It's basically near constant talk about what the U.S. needs to do. It's like not far from two fans talking about the game. Believe it or not, that is not the standard for international football commentary.

It's been more prevalent in the last few years where I could watch football games from so many different countries. The English and Spanish language broadcasts I could understand without a problem but it wasn't an issue understanding the intent of the announcers in other languages (by-product of watching the game for decades).

I've seen far worse homerism (a more fitting term since were on HF) on so many more occasions. This was tame by comparison. Yes, there are examples. No, I won't post them. As I've stated many times, I'm lazy.
Google is your friend.

It was a broadcast of a US game on an American network. Not understanding why there's a complaint.
(You could ask why I went into a bit of a diatribe about it, which is fair. Short answer: I'm an a-hole)

 

[Savant]

How about some shouts for man of the group?

I would have to say Group MVP is Tyler Adams

Taremi Kane
McKennie Bellingham Adams Musah
Shaw Ream Maguire Dest
Turner? (none of the goalies were memorable)

 

[bluesfan94]

Rewatching the game. Adams was really phenomenal.

Taremi Kane
McKennie Bellingham Adams Musah
Shaw Ream Maguire Dest
Turner? (none of the goalies were memorable)

Rashford probably belongs. I'd go 4-3-3 and drop McKennie for Saka, too.

 

[luiginb]

Turner

Rezaeian
Maguire
Ream
Shaw

Bellingham
Adams
Rice

Saka
Kane
Rashford

 

[ZachaFlockaFlame]

Denmark stomps USA

 

[WarriorofTime]

 

[Savant]

I still think Denmark would be the favorite if they play USA. I don’t even think this is controversial

 

[ZachaFlockaFlame]

I still think Denmark would be the favorite if they play USA. I don’t even think this is controversial

While you're probably true, we'll never know at this World Cup which was the original point. Denmark looked awful in their 3 games where the USMNT had actually a 75 out of 270 where they looked bad in the group stage and it was the second half against Wales and maybe the last 25 v Iran where Berhalter parked the bus

 

[Basement Cat]

I still think Denmark would be the favorite if they play USA. I don’t even think this is controversial

Now it's "would be the favorite" and not "Denmark stomps the USA". You are one stubborn man. "I don't even think this is controversial".

 

[Savant]

Now it's "would be the favorite" and not "Denmark stomps the USA". You are one stubborn man. "I don't even think this is controversial".

i guess so? USA still hasn’t shown they are good. Denmark was a semi finalist in the Euros. It’s clear that (in Hindsight now obviously) Denmark was in a harder group too. I don’t think USA would have been a lock to get out of that group either, and the vast majority thought Denmark was a lock pre-tournament. Obviously this is fickle though

 

[Basement Cat]

Oh come on man, Iran/Wales and Australia/Tunisia isn’t a gap in quality of opponents at all.

 

[Savant]

Oh come on man, Iran/Wales and Australia/Tunisia isn’t a gap in quality of opponents at all.

Tunisia just beat France, and Australia beat Tunisia; and Denmark who would be favored against USA. I think collectively Group D was slept on a bit