GWT: World Cup - Group B (England and USA Advance)

[Jersey Fresh]

He is conservative in his approach to tournament football, which pisses people off when they 0-0 teams like Scotland and USA that the fans want to pummel for pride, but it's effective for what he's trying to do. Southgate sucking is one of those circlejerk opinions not really backed up by reality. England has a talented squad, yes, but it's not materially better than the rest of the big soccer producing nations.

This completely undercuts your starting point - should we give the US the credit for the 0-0 or Southgate?

 

[cgf]

I think the argument is our guys would have a tough time scoring. But athletically Denmark would be at a pretty big disadvantage. Honestly one of the things that stood out when we were playing England and they have more to offer in that department.

I will say since it is far more likely if this game were to take place it would be happening in 2026 where I think you will be at a massive disadvantage in this game.

I'm no Dane ;-)

But matches aren't always as simple as they should be on paper and they are different from England. Denmark is much more comfortable and capable of playing without the ball than the english.

So if both teams played their best and the americans were able to press them effectively; the Danes would be fine just letting the USA toothlessly control the ball for long stretches...waiting for the american pressers to start to get a little tired, when they'll no longer be able to keep up with their passing game as effectively.

 

[WarriorofTime]

This completely undercuts your starting point - should we give the US the credit for the 0-0 or Southgate?

Not sure what you mean, USA gets credit since they didn't get their asses kicked by one of the best teams like Iran and Wales did.

 

[The Zetterberg Era]

Because the Media says so? Got England to the Final 4 of the 2018 WC, got England to the Final (and came down to Penalties) in the last Euros.

But sure, any stupid idiot would have won both of those, just cuz, nevermind that England had done f*** all for generations before he got there (including a so-called "Golden Generation" that never got nearly as far)

I thought Southgate underwhelmed in the USA game, I understand the criticism.

I do think England fans get carried away, but that is also kind of the way life is going to be. I mean it is a tough gig to have. Hello Toronto or Montreal in hockey.

They have a ton of talent. His selection and timing are often just slightly off. The point that he has compiled a record that should be given more respect is fair, but again look at the market. That isn't going change, finding a guy that might actually change their back-line would help. He seems to be choosing to make England slower than they need to be, which I don't understand.

But I have massive issues with player selection and roles with Berhalter too. Kind of something that happens if you care enough and follow the sport closely enough. I think the reality is we also think soccer (football) managers do have an impact bigger than in some other sports, that might be one of the issues depending on how much someone buys into that.

 

[cgf]

He is conservative in his approach to tournament football, which pisses people off when they 0-0 teams like Scotland and USA that the fans want to pummel for pride, but it's effective for what he's trying to do. Southgate sucking is one of those circlejerk opinions not really backed up by reality. England has a talented squad, yes, but it's not materially better than the rest of the big soccer producing nations.

I remember when people used to get mad at me for calling Jogi bad too. NT managers aren't great in general, so talent can cover a lot fo ineptitude...especially when mixed with some luck.

 

[TheMoreYouKnow]

I dunno because I watch these guys every week and he picks the wrong players?

Well, not to be a dick, but I'm sure so does he, and there is the small matter of him having not just vast experience as a professional player but also as a coach, as well as having access to tons of advanced scouting information you and I don't have access to.

I mean all things considered, if someone asked me who I'd rather have set up my national team, Live in the Now or Gareth Southgate, I'll probably go with Gareth Southgate.

 

[adsfan]

To be fair, Southgate does suck. The English have more talent than they've had in a long time.


This can't be true because Turner had a save on a looping header and on the ball where Iran thought they deserved a penalty.

Reading comprehension. I said "at one point".

 

[Live in the Now]

Well, not to be a dick, but I'm sure so does he, and there is the small matter of him having not just vast experience as a professional player but also as a coach, as well as having access to tons of advanced scouting information you and I don't have access to.

I mean all things considered, if someone asked me who I'd rather have set up my national team, Live in the Now or Gareth Southgate, I'll probably go with Gareth Southgate.

Well yeah but when you ask someone why you think the things that you do? You shouldn’t make up some other reason and just say why. But that doesn’t make either me or Southgate right either.

 

[WarriorofTime]

I remember when people used to get mad at me for calling Jogi bad too. NT managers aren't great in general, so talent can cover a lot fo ineptitude...especially when mixed with some luck.

that's fine and I tend to agree, USA's manager isn't particularly good either (I was fuming at the subs.. Shaq Moore really? and going to a Back 5 late) so I wouldn't say USA enjoyed some big tactical advantage

 

[Jersey Fresh]

Not sure what you mean, USA gets credit since they didn't get their asses kicked by one of the best teams like Iran and Wales did.

Not sure what you mean, USA gets credit since they didn't get their asses kicked by one of the best teams like Iran and Wales did.

England had some nightmare matches in qualifiers too, I’m not reading much into that. The negativity hasn’t changed from Southgate. The squad he has at his disposal, and he still plays with five defenders and two DMs. Sometimes their talent wins the day, and more often it can’t outrun the tactics.

 

[bluesfan94]

I'm no Dane ;-)

To be fair, Germany will struggle against the US in 2026, too. You have Germenglish Reyna and Leverkusen Musah, but the American Lahm won't struggle to shut them down.

 

[Live in the Now]

that's fine and I tend to agree, USA's manager isn't particularly good either (I was fuming at the subs.. Shaq Moore really? and going to a Back 5 late) so I wouldn't say USA enjoyed some big tactical advantage

His decision was poorly timed. They should have played ten more minutes against Iran defending with two before deciding to give up the impetus. They only had two guys back there at all times after the 60th minute or so.

 

[WarriorofTime]

England had some nightmare matches in qualifiers too, I’m not reading much into that. The negativity hasn’t changed from Southgate. The squad he has at his disposal, and he still plays with five defenders and two DMs. Sometimes their talent wins the day, and more often it can’t outrun the tactics.

qualifying? England cruised easily. 10 matches, 8 wins and 2 draws with the best goal differential of any team in any group (the San Marino lads certainly help that of course). It's Nations League where they looked like shit.

 

[cgf]

To be fair, Germany will struggle against the US in 2026, too. You have Germenglish Reyna and Leverkusen Musah, but the American Lahm won't struggle to shut them down.

 

[TheMoreYouKnow]

Southgate's done well enough. I'd also say that even though England has a ton of talent now, they certainly have weaknesses. I don't know why anyone would expect them just to wipe the floor with the opposition in every match.

 

[bluesfan94]

I know, I hate underselling Reyna, Musah, and Scally like that, too, but them's the breaks.

 

[cgf]

I know, I hate underselling Reyna, Musah, and Scally like that, too, but them's the breaks.

You don't steal a man's schtick to spew blasphemy like American Lahm. There's a line.

Southgate's done well enough. I'd also say that even though England has a ton of talent now, they certainly have weaknesses. I don't know why anyone would expect them just to wipe the floor with the opposition in every match.

So did Jogi...

 

[The Zetterberg Era]

I'm no Dane ;-)

But matches aren't always as simple as they should be on paper and they are different from England. Denmark is much more comfortable and capable of playing without the ball than the english.

So if both teams played their best and the americans were able to press them effectively; the Danes would be fine just letting the USA toothlessly control the ball for long stretches...waiting for the american pressers to start to get a little tired, when they'll no longer be able to keep up with their passing game as effectively.

I don't really see how the Danes score in that strategy either. I mean you can hope to hit them in transition but you have to open the game to do that, which you seem to be suggesting they would understand not to do. Like I said you can set piece it, man do I miss Miles Robinson this tournament for the US there.

I get that if you don't score it is toothless, I kind of think one of the more interesting parts with the younger guys is they generate a heck of a lot more offense just because they are more talented than what we are used to. Now they squander those chances, no true central forward continues to be a complete disaster. But generally they have generated a ton of chances, with a few games in qualifying notwithstanding. But I think they still break people down.

It wasn't just down to England. I think midfield wise we prefer a team like Denmark especially if we are talking similar tiers like was being discussed earlier. But like you said it could play out very differently.

 

[Live in the Now]

I also should point out on the subject of Southgate that the game looks way different from the stands than it does from field level. A lot of the times coaches are wrong is because they don’t see the same thing the fans do…and almost all the times fans are wrong it’s because they aren’t on the field or in the dressing room. It’s impossible to know exactly what he bases his decisions on but it’s reasonable to say when he’s wrong, or that you think he’s doing a bad job, etc.

So in the case of today whatever Berhalter saw that made him want to defend for 30 minutes was just plain wrong.

 

[Wee Baby Seamus]

I dunno because I watch these guys every week and he picks the wrong players?

One thing I will give Southgate credit for - and this directly responds to the "watching these guys every week" (and, as you know, I do too!) - is that he largely picks based on form for the NT and not club form, and I think his choices in that regard have been borne out.

Maguire's had two rough seasons back to back. He's been consistently very good for England. Based on club form, he'd be totally gone from the set-up, but instead he was arguably the best CB at Euro 2020.

People were calling for Sterling to be dropped before Euro 2020, and instead he was the best English player at the tournament.

I know you want Trent in, but Trippier and Walker have both been historically better for the NT. James would've started over all of them if he hadn't gotten hurt last month.

Southgate's issue, if I'm being honest, isn't team selection. It's rare that I look at an England line-up and think "yeah, he got that wrong." It's his on-field tactics that suck ass.

 

[bluesfan94]

You don't steal a man's schtick to spew blasphemy like American Lahm. There's a line.



So did Jogi...

I figured you were a fan of Scally but I didn't know you thought he'd be THAT good that comparing him to Lahm would be blasphemous. Wow, even more of a shame Berhalter doesn't seem to rate him

 

[TheMoreYouKnow]

So did Jogi...

Until he didn't. I mean here's the reality of it - if Southgate loses to Senegal, he's probably out. And I think that's broadly fair. It's a results-driven business and every tournament requires a reevaluation. It would have been silly to call for Jogi's head in 2014 or even 2016. And no-one seriously did. 2018 changed everything. The fact he wasn't gone then is what set the team back by a cycle.

 

[bluesfan94]

Until he didn't. I mean here's the reality of it - if Southgate loses to Senegal, he's probably out.

Is he?

 

[Wee Baby Seamus]

Until he didn't. I mean here's the reality of it - if Southgate loses to Senegal, he's probably out. And I think that's broadly fair. It's a results-driven business and every tournament requires a reevaluation. It would have been silly to call for Jogi's head in 2014 or even 2016. And no-one seriously did. 2018 changed everything. The fact he wasn't gone then is what set the team back by a cycle.

Southgate's teflon, especially now that Potter is at Chelsea

 

[The Zetterberg Era]

That's also one of those, how did they lose scenarios? I agree though, I am outsider, but I feel like that could be it for Southgate. I don't anticipate that will happen.