Player Discussion With how many goals will Jake Virtanen end the 2018-19 season?

[Krnuckfan]

I consider them different players because they have completely opposite temperaments and I consider temperament an important factor to consider in a player's development curve.

Jake is headstrong, stubborn, confident/arrogant and passive aggressive.

Taylor, based on my observation of his time with the Canucks, was none of the above.

You have to admit though this is armchair psychology at its finest no?

Even if you were able to determine accurately a player's personality through your monitor/tv screen how does one being passive aggressive lead to a different development curve?

This is one of the silliest things I've read on here.

 

[mathonwy]

Firing a coach based on the possibility he has ruined a players development? That makes zero sense to me. Creating a carousel of coaches is confusing in determining a teams identity.

I say we fire a coach if hes doing a bad job. So far its a reach to criticize Green's performance. This roster is awful.

My point is, hiring a new coach is easier than drafting another #6 pick.

What does this team ultimately want?

A motivated and mature Jake Virtanen who has managed to earn and retain a top 6 spot.

On a scale of 1 (least) to 10 (most), how important is this achievement to the Vancouver Canucks overall objective of becoming a relevant team again in the shortest time possible?

IMO, 10.

-

Out of all of our young players, Jake has, IMO, the highest amount of unrealized potential.

Everybody else is more or less on a linear player development curve except for Jake who's curve looks kinda like parabella.

We saw tantalizing pieces of this potential during his rookie season but that's a long time ago and the Jake we see right now is a shell of his former self.

So, how do we fix this?

I dunno. If it's coaching related then considering how important I believe Jake to be (see above), I would very strongly consider looking for a more compatible coach.

Unrealistic? Maybe. I fully acknowledge that I don't really have a good idea how disruptive a new coach would be.

 

[mathonwy]

You have to admit though this is armchair psychology at its finest no?

Even if you were able to determine accurately a player's personality through your monitor/tv screen how does one being passive aggressive lead to a different development curve?

This is one of the silliest things I've read on here.

It's almost like education is a discipline that people go to university to learn more about.

 

[strattonius]

My point is, hiring a new coach is easier than drafting another #6 pick.

What does this team ultimately want?

A motivated and mature Jake Virtanen who has managed to earn and retain a top 6 spot.

On a scale of 1 (least) to 10 (most), how important is this achievement to the Vancouver Canucks overall objective of becoming a relevant team again in the shortest time possible?

IMO, 10.

-

Out of all of our young players, Jake has, IMO, the highest amount of unrealized potential.

Everybody else is more or less on a linear player development curve except for Jake who's curve looks like kinda like parabella.

We saw tantalizing pieces of this potential during his rookie season but that's a long time ago and the Jake we see right now is a shell of his former self.

So, how do we fix this?

I dunno. If it's coaching related then considering how important I believe Jake to be (see above), I would very strongly consider looking for a more compatible coach.

Unrealistic? Maybe. I fully acknowledge that I don't really have a good idea how disruptive a new coach would be.

Fundamentally, I agree with what you're saying. But is there any examples of Green disrupting Virtanen's development?

 

[mathonwy]

Delete

 

[krutovsdonut]

23 goals 14 assists.

well he still has a shot at 14 assists.

 

[sting101]

Ballard and Higgins had their best season at age 22 or under as well. Goalies are a different animal so I won't include them. Tamb, Rome, Alberts, Bolduc, Oreskovich are fringe players. They didnt get any better at age 22.

So you decided to cherry pick and just focus on skating and physical traits. His physical traits? Aside from hitting which is an overrated stat what does he do with his physical trait that help the Canucks on the ice. Pyatt had the hands and hockey IQ to get 23 goals with the Sedins. Comparing Pyatt to Virtanen is not foolish at all.

Most high picks from draft+5 you know what type of player you are getting with him. Go check on to hockey db and see for yourself. There is a reason a lot of people like to use that argument on why it is bad idea to trade picks for Vey or Baer because by 22/23. Most likely they are a finished product already.

Offensively Virtanen hasn't gotten better since day 1.

Let me ask you this

Tell me some players that had 19 points in a full ahl season that developed into a top 6 F?

Tell some players that went three straight years without scoring more than 20 points that became a top 6 F?

Both are not many.

I said this so many times. It's Virtanen sexy skating that is tricking some people in think he is some future top 6 F.

I think you are indicating Virtanen has good work ethics? Give me some examples on why he has a good work ethics?

Chris Higgins age 22 23 24. Looks like he improved to me.

2005-06	Montreal Canadiens	NHL	80	23	15	38	26	-1	6	1	3	4	0
2006-07	Montreal Canadiens	NHL	61	22	16	38	26	-11	--	--	--	--	--
2007-08	Montreal Canadiens	NHL	82	27	25	52	22	0	12	3	2	5	2

[TBODY] [/TBODY]

Jake Virtanen on pace for 30pts in 82 games. 8 less than Higgins at the same age.
The same trajectory has him as a 42 43 pt player at 23 24?

Ballard didnt even play in the NHL till 23. Hamhuis actually was in the AHL as a 22yr old so its basically Raffi Torres.

As far as the rest of what your saying.....i never said he was a surefire top6 player? I think i've always seen him as a unique player who at his best could be the 3rd forward on a good line disrupting defenses, driving play forward using his speed and size.

I said it would be foolish to think he's hit his ceiling and not give him next year to have an impact and provided basically an entire team that were nowhere near peaks at 22 so that kind of dispells your assertion about finished products. If you guys want to brand him trash and trade him for scraps then thats your opinion i think it would be just as dumb as most of managements moves to date.

Horvat is yet another example of a 22-23yr old player starting to assert himself, taking his game to the next level and figure things out......people gotta have some patience. He's obviously a dissappointment but he's not Curtis Lazar the kid can play if he can get his head invested in what he's doing

 

[m9]

14 goals, 17 assists, 31 pts. (Based on around 80 games)

He's on a 29 or 30 point pace over 80 games. Close enough.

 

[RobertKron]

Chris Higgins age 22 23 24. Looks like he improved to me.

2005-06	Montreal Canadiens	NHL	80	23	15	38	26	-1	6	1	3	4	0
2006-07	Montreal Canadiens	NHL	61	22	16	38	26	-11	--	--	--	--	--
2007-08	Montreal Canadiens	NHL	82	27	25	52	22	0	12	3	2	5	2

[TBODY] [/TBODY]

Jake Virtanen on pace for 30pts in 82 games. 8 less than Higgins at the same age.
The same trajectory has him as a 42 43 pt player at 23 24?

Ballard didnt even play in the NHL till 23. Hamhuis actually was in the AHL as a 22yr old so its basically Raffi Torres.

As far as the rest of what your saying.....i never said he was a surefire top6 player? I think i've always seen him as a unique player who at his best could be the 3rd forward on a good line disrupting defenses, driving play forward using his speed and size.

I said it would be foolish to think he's hit his ceiling and not give him next year to have an impact and provided basically an entire team that were nowhere near peaks at 22 so that kind of dispells your assertion about finished products. If you guys want to brand him trash and trade him for scraps then thats your opinion i think it would be just as dumb as most of managements moves to date.

Horvat is yet another example of a 22-23yr old player starting to assert himself, taking his game to the next level and figure things out......people gotta have some patience. He's obviously a dissappointment but he's not Curtis Lazar the kid can play if he can get his head invested in what he's doing

Ballard's 39p season was his 22yo season, as was Hamhuis' 38p one.

 

[Phenomenon13]

How many will he get next year is a better question

 

[me2]

 

[Canucks1096]

Chris Higgins age 22 23 24. Looks like he improved to me.

2005-06	Montreal Canadiens	NHL	80	23	15	38	26	-1	6	1	3	4	0
2006-07	Montreal Canadiens	NHL	61	22	16	38	26	-11	--	--	--	--	--
2007-08	Montreal Canadiens	NHL	82	27	25	52	22	0	12	3	2	5	2

[TBODY] [/TBODY]

Jake Virtanen on pace for 30pts in 82 games. 8 less than Higgins at the same age.
The same trajectory has him as a 42 43 pt player at 23 24?

Ballard didnt even play in the NHL till 23. Hamhuis actually was in the AHL as a 22yr old so its basically Raffi Torres.

As far as the rest of what your saying.....i never said he was a surefire top6 player? I think i've always seen him as a unique player who at his best could be the 3rd forward on a good line disrupting defenses, driving play forward using his speed and size.

I said it would be foolish to think he's hit his ceiling and not give him next year to have an impact and provided basically an entire team that were nowhere near peaks at 22 so that kind of dispells your assertion about finished products. If you guys want to brand him trash and trade him for scraps then thats your opinion i think it would be just as dumb as most of managements moves to date.

Horvat is yet another example of a 22-23yr old player starting to assert himself, taking his game to the next level and figure things out......people gotta have some patience. He's obviously a dissappointment but he's not Curtis Lazar the kid can play if he can get his head invested in what he's doing

Fair enough on Higgins. For some reason I was thinking he was born in 1985. Ballard started his nhl season at 22. Hamhuis was 22 when he had the 38 p season.

However let's get back to Virtanen. I am a little confuse on your argument. The debate is Virtanen will not get any better or much better at age 22. You disagree with this. But now you are saying he not a sure fire top 6 F. If he not sure fire top 6. That means his level is a no more than a 3rd line forward. Isn't he a 3rd line forward now? If you dont think he can reach another level and be a top 6 F. Doesn't that mean you don't think he can that much better?

Virtanen since day 1 until now Virtanen hasn't gotten better offensively. Only thing that is difference this year he is reliable defensively so he can stacked up on empty net points and got some pp time as well. Even strength his ppg it is really similar since day 1. A player hasn't improve much offensively in 4 years. I think it fair to say he has reached his peaked.

Sedins Kesler Horvat you seem improvements year by year. Virtanen you don't.

 

[Canucks1096]

When Virtanen got injured. I just knew it that people will use the injured card to make excuses on why Virtanen didn't hit 20 goals.

 

[me2]

Fair enough on Higgins.

And MayRay who unsurprisingly resembles Virtanen (only MayRay has more net presence).

 

[M2Beezy]

15

 

[Disappointed EP40]

Jake is no Taylor Pyatt.

I never said that.

Regardless of that fact, Jake Virtanen is much closer to Tom Pyatt than he is Tom Wilson. (Contribution-wise.)

 

[Disappointed EP40]

I consider them different players because they have completely opposite temperaments and I consider temperament an important factor to consider in a player's development curve.

Jake is headstrong, stubborn, confident/arrogant and passive aggressive.

Taylor, based on my observation of his time with the Canucks, was none of the above.

A) You don't know Jake's or Taylor's personality whatsoever.
B) Even if you did, relating that to development curve is absurd.
C) Reading comprehension. I even didn't say Virtanen was Taylor Pyatt, especially stylistically. (It was a random name of a 'meh' player that became a known product by age 22, unlike Tom Wilson)
D) Regardless of C, he most definitely is not Tom Wilson, which was the comment I was responding to. It's dumb to mention Tom Wilson in regards to expectations from Virtanen -- Wilson was an aberration. The correct expectation at Virtanen's age is a Taylor Pyatt production-like career.

 

[Disappointed EP40]

Travis hasn't exactly blossomed as a great head coach, nevermind what I think about how he's handled Jakey.

I'd love to hear what you'd expect from him to give Virtanen. He's been given every chance IMO. Not sure what else Green could do. Run on the ice and score for him ?

 

[Disappointed EP40]

Regular Season	Playoffs	Vitals
#	Player Name	Pos.	GP	G	A	Pts	PIM	+/-	GP	G	A	Pts	PIM	Birthplace	Age
22	Daniel Sedin	L	82	41	63	104	32	30	25	9	11	20	32	Sweden: Ornskoldsvik	29
33	Henrik Sedin	C	82	19	75	94	40	26	25	3	19	22	16	Sweden: Ornskoldsvik	29
17	Ryan Kesler	C	82	41	32	73	66	24	25	7	12	19	47	MI: Livonia	26
26	Mikael Samuelsson	R	75	18	32	50	36	8	11	1	2	3	8	Sweden: Mariefred	33
5	Christian Ehrhoff	D	79	14	36	50	52	19	23	2	10	12	16	Germany: Moers	28
14	Alexandre Burrows	R	72	26	22	48	77	26	25	9	8	17	34	PQ: Pincourt	29
21	Mason Raymond	L	70	15	24	39	10	8	24	2	6	8	6	ALTA: Cochrane	24
23	Alexander Edler	D	51	8	25	33	24	13	25	2	9	11	8	Sweden: Ostersund	24
27	Manny Malhotra	C	72	11	19	30	22	9	6	0	0	0	0	ONT: Mississauga	30
13	Raffi Torres	L	80	14	15	29	78	4	23	3	4	7	28	ONT: Toronto	28
36	Jannik Hansen	R	82	9	20	29	32	13	25	3	6	9	18	Denmark: Rodovre	24
2	Dan Hamhuis	D	64	6	17	23	34	29	19	1	5	6	6	BC: Smithers	27
3	Kevin Bieksa	D	66	6	16	22	73	32	25	5	5	10	51	ONT: Grimsby	29
10	Jeff Tambellini	R	62	9	8	17	18	10	6	0	0	0	2	ALTA: Calgary	26
15	Tanner Glass	L	73	3	7	10	72	-5	20	0	0	0	18	SASK: Regina	26
6	Sami Salo	D	27	3	4	7	14	-3	21	3	2	5	2	Finland: Turku	35
4	Keith Ballard	D	65	2	5	7	53	10	10	0	0	0	6	MN: Baudette	27
41	Andrew Alberts	D	42	1	6	7	41	0	9	0	0	0	6	MN: Eden Prairie	29
20	Chris Higgins 1	L	14	2	3	5	6	0	25	4	4	8	2	NY: Smithtown	27
29	Aaron Rome	D	56	1	4	5	53	1	14	1	0	1	37	MAN: Brandon	26
	Alexandre Bolduc	C	24	2	2	4	21	1	3	0	0	0	0	PQ: Montreal	25
38	Victor Oreskovich	R	16	0	3	3	8	1	19	0	0	0	12	ONT: Whitby	24
35	Cory Schneider	G	25	0	3	3	0	0	5	0	0	0	0	MA: Marblehead	24
1	Roberto Luongo	G	60	0	3	3	2	0	25	0	0	0	0	PQ: Montreal	31

[TBODY] [/TBODY]
[TBODY] [/TBODY]

This was the greatest Canuck team of all time. How many of these players were nearly as good or better at 22? Hamhuis and Torres maybe?

Sure without the right work ethic your right he wont progress but using Taylor Pyatt who has a horrible skater as an example and suggesting a guy with Virtanen's physical traits cannot make leaps in development is foolish.

If this team makes steps and he plateus next year when his entire career earnings and job are in question then i will concede he's likely in need of at very least a change of scenery but writing off a guy when just one season ago couldn't be relied upon to take a regular shift is being foolishly impatient

Hahahahhaha. What a zoo of a response. WOW.

Foolish is taking my example of 'meh' player (Pyatt) and suddenly applying the comparison, stylistically of all things, to Virtanen. You are right, Pyatt's skating is nothing like the speedy Virtanen. But is his career more likely to Pyatt than Wilson ? f*** yes.

I never said in my comment player's peak at 22. At 22 we have a good sense of their actual potential. Whether good, a bust, or meh.

Virtanen's most likely future is that of a third line 'meh' player, not Tom Wilson.

This is my point. And it's correct. Saying "BuT, bUt ToM WiLsoN!" just makes you look out of touch with reality.

 

[me2]

Hahahahhaha. What a zoo of a response. WOW.

Foolish is taking my example of 'meh' player (Pyatt) and suddenly applying the comparison, stylistically of all things, to Virtanen. You are right, Pyatt's skating is nothing like the speedy Virtanen. But is his career more likely to Pyatt than Wilson ? **** yes.

I never said in my comment player's peak at 22. At 22 we have a good sense of their actual potential. Whether good, a bust, or meh.

Virtanen's most likely future is that of a third line 'meh' player, not Tom Wilson.

This is my point. And it's correct. Saying "BuT, bUt ToM WiLsoN!" just makes you look out of touch with reality.

 

[sting101]

Ballard's 39p season was his 22yo season, as was Hamhuis' 38p one.

Not a big deal but both were in the AHL in 2004/05. Born in 82.

 

[RobertKron]

Not a big deal but both were in the AHL in 2004/05. Born in 82.

Do you consider this to be Pettersson's 19 or 20 year old season?

 

[sting101]

Do you consider this to be Pettersson's 19 or 20 year old season?

Splitting hairs. Ok it was their 21/22yr old seasons. It doesnt take anything away from my original point where I included Hamhuis anyway.

 

[PuckMunchkin]

Chris Higgins age 22 23 24. Looks like he improved to me.

2005-06	Montreal Canadiens	NHL	80	23	15	38	26	-1	6	1	3	4	0
2006-07	Montreal Canadiens	NHL	61	22	16	38	26	-11	--	--	--	--	--
2007-08	Montreal Canadiens	NHL	82	27	25	52	22	0	12	3	2	5	2

[TBODY] [/TBODY]

Jake Virtanen on pace for 30pts in 82 games. 8 less than Higgins at the same age.
The same trajectory has him as a 42 43 pt player at 23 24?

Ballard didnt even play in the NHL till 23. Hamhuis actually was in the AHL as a 22yr old so its basically Raffi Torres.

As far as the rest of what your saying.....i never said he was a surefire top6 player? I think i've always seen him as a unique player who at his best could be the 3rd forward on a good line disrupting defenses, driving play forward using his speed and size.

I said it would be foolish to think he's hit his ceiling and not give him next year to have an impact and provided basically an entire team that were nowhere near peaks at 22 so that kind of dispells your assertion about finished products. If you guys want to brand him trash and trade him for scraps then thats your opinion i think it would be just as dumb as most of managements moves to date.

Horvat is yet another example of a 22-23yr old player starting to assert himself, taking his game to the next level and figure things out......people gotta have some patience. He's obviously a dissappointment but he's not Curtis Lazar the kid can play if he can get his head invested in what he's doing

The issue is that there is really nothing JV can improve physically. He is really fast and strong already, he has a good shot and can protect the puck.
He would have to develop a different way to see the game. When you compare him to players like Daniel Sedin the situation is EXACTLY opposite. Daniel Sedin had none of the tools (except a decent shot), he had so much room to grow.

I have seen nothing to indicate he isn't the same player (with the puck) he was at 19 yrs old.

 

[sting101]

The issue is that there is really nothing JV can improve physically. He is really fast and strong already, he has a good shot and can protect the puck.
He would have to develop a different way to see the game. When you compare him to players like Daniel Sedin the situation is EXACTLY opposite. Daniel Sedin had none of the tools (except a decent shot), he had so much room to grow.

I have seen nothing to indicate he isn't the same player (with the puck) he was at 19 yrs old.

Dont get me wrong im not expecting a transformation into a pt per game player but i do feel he could bring a Torres/Hansen like hybrid game to a really good 3rd line or be the grinder along with Horvat/Baertschi and Pettersson/Boeser from time to time.

My contention is with trading Virtanen while his value is low and potential has not been reached. I have provided examples of many (sure most don't work out but not many players are at their peaks at 22 either which was my point).

He has stalled somewhat but i think at this point it would be foolish to cut bait with him when he has positional and dedication issues that can be erased and improved with some further commitment and maturity. You see a guy who has physical traits that should allow him to be who he isat 22.....i see a player who still has some incredible leaps in consistency, hasn't defined his role and needs to learn to crash the net and play with urgency.

At very least he makes this soft slow weak team a little faster and stronger and i agree that's not enough for a long term commitment is dissappointing and sure if a team offered a decent top4 RD for him that would be a good trade but its not gonna happen as he currently is.

I guess i'm preaching patience. We're a bad team and that can affect how players play and are perceived. We've come this far i really want to see what he does next year with his career and future earnings hanging in the wind. I still feel he has much more to offer but i do have doubts about his willingness to work and his mental make up. We'll see where it goes....i can bet you that like Hutton last year Green will call him out....lets see if he can respond