Confirmed with Link: Wings re-sign Cleary, 1 yr $1.75 MM

[RedWingsNow*]

Just ran the calculator at capgeek on it. Depending on the year he retires, it could be around $3m or it could be around $2.6m. For comparison, if Z retired at some point in the last few years of his deal, it looks like we'd get hit with something just above or below $5m.

maybe getting stuck with Franzen's cap penalty would keep us from re-signing a 38 yr old Cleary, though...

The issue isn't that it's just Franzen's penalty. it's that it's Zetterberg AND Franzens, but that Franzen isn't playing like someone worth paying for later

 

[InjuredChoker]

The issue isn't that it's just Franzen's penalty. it's that it's Zetterberg AND Franzens, but that Franzen isn't playing like someone worth paying for later

Z could go on LTIR.

 

[bababooeyII]

How many of the things on the list I quoted are "negatives" that every other GM in the league hasn't duplicated or surpassed? Letting UFA's hit free agency, signing a player that doesn't work out, being forced to cut a guy because the cap dropped, or making a trade that didn't work. All kinds of teams have signed RFA's to expensive contracts, why shouldn't Holland get credit for batting .1000 on them this offseason?

The contract we bought out will cost the team 950k for 2 years. Garth Snow (the guy put forth as a superior GM) is paying DiPietro 1.5 million for 16 more years. Yzerman, the guy many around here think should be doing Holland's job is paying 32 million over 14 years to Lecavalier for him to play against them. There are 23 teams in the league who are currently paying buyouts to players more expensive than Colaiacovo and yet that is being held against Holland.

To your last point, while 53% of the league makes the playoffs every year only 25% (7) have made the playoffs in all of the past 5 years (Zetterberg4Captain's timeframe), and none of them are even halfway to the Wings streak of 22 years.

It seems that on this board everything that goes right should be credited to Nill, Babcock, Hakan, Blashill, or luck, but anything negative that happens is all Holland's fault. Those guys certainly deserve credit for much of the good in my list, but so does Holland. On the other hand Babcock and the others also deserve some of the criticism for the things that were listed in Z4C's negatives. Bert, Cleary, and Sammy are all personal favorites of Babs while Hudler and Flip were constantly in his doghouse, and if you believe Z4C that we aren't Identifying, drafting and developing enough talent then some of that blame would have to fall on Nill, Hakan, Blashill and luck as well.
You can't have it both ways

In the media and every other fan board the meme seems to be that Ken Holland can do no wrong and he is such a genius. Holland has never been asked any tough questions as to his lack of moves, his over the top loyalty to his older players at the expense of the younger players, not managing assets properly in the case of certain free agent departures, and always seems to have to act when he's weakest like when he loses prospects for nothing via waivers. I happen to think the guy is the most over rated GM in sports. He's not even the best GM employed by the Ilitch's. But for some reason he never gets any difficult questions or takes any kind of heat from the fan base. He is immune from criticism but will bask in taking the credit.

 

[SoupNazi]

In the media and every other fan board the meme seems to be that Ken Holland can do no wrong and he is such a genius. Holland has never been asked any tough questions as to his lack of moves, his over the top loyalty to his older players at the expense of the younger players, not managing assets properly in the case of certain free agent departures, and always seems to have to act when he's weakest like when he loses prospects for nothing via waivers. I happen to think the guy is the most over rated GM in sports. He's not even the best GM employed by the Ilitch's. But for some reason he never gets any difficult questions or takes any kind of heat from the fan base. He is immune from criticism but will bask in taking the credit.

Who was the last prospect lost for nothing to waivers? Quincey?

 

[Winger98]

The issue isn't that it's just Franzen's penalty. it's that it's Zetterberg AND Franzens, but that Franzen isn't playing like someone worth paying for later

No, I think the issue is that expectations for Franzen are radically different for different people.

We've hashed and re-hashed it, though. He gives pretty much what I expect, and I'm especially fine with it at his cap hit. And most years we're paying out the nose to replace it, this summer being the exception for reasons that have also been gone over quite a bit.

I think the only way Franzen is bought out is if we somehow acquire/sign someone like Kessel or Vanek before free agency, or if we can take advantage of the second buyout period next year after we've signed a guy or two. I don't think Holland would risk going into next season without Franzen and without a replacement.

 

[RedWingsNow*]

No, I think the issue is that expectations for Franzen are radically different for different people.

Well good job completely ignoring my point -- and returning to the tired old argument about Franzen.

This is going to end well.

We've hashed and re-hashed it, though. He gives pretty much what I expect, and I'm especially fine with it at his cap hit. And most years we're paying out the nose to replace it, this summer being the exception for reasons that have also been gone over quite a bit.

I think the only way Franzen is bought out is if we somehow acquire/sign someone like Kessel or Vanek before free agency, or if we can take advantage of the second buyout period next year after we've signed a guy or two. I don't think Holland would risk going into next season without Franzen and without a replacement.

The problem is that the new NHL CBA has changed the value of the cap hit.

No longer is it a true $3.9M cap hit if we're going to be penalized at a later date.

Jiri freakin; Hudler was a 25 goal scorer on the first line.
He actually actually outscored Franzen at even strength.
We just dumped Brunner for NOTHING -- and he scored one fewer goal than Franzen (including playoffs).

All Franzen does is score goals. He doens't work hard on D. He doesn't hit hard or battle very hard for pucks. Most nights he plays like a lazy oaf.

Replacing him is easier than you seem to want to believe.

But that's what happens when you dig your heel in on an argument for four years.

 

[bababooeyII]

Who was the last prospect lost for nothing to waivers? Quincey?

Yep. And now we'll probably lose guys like Emmerton and a few others for nothing only to re-acquire them for 1st round picks.

 

[Winger98]

Yeah, horrible lazy oaf.

Have a nice day.

 

[SoupNazi]

Yep. And now we'll probably lose guys like Emmerton and a few others for nothing only to re-acquire them for 1st round picks.

Uh huh.

 

[Roy S]

Franzen's two-way play is incredibly underrated. He started his career as a defensive forward, is a positive player every year playing against the other team's better players and over the last 6 years, he's the 3rd best forward in terms of fewest goals allowed per 60 minutes despite his tough assignments. Playing with Pav and Z and Lidstrom has helped and he's not a Selke-level talent, but he does a lot more than just score goals. He also has consistently played on our top shutdown lines through the years.

 

[SoupNazi]

Yeah, horrible lazy oaf.

Have a nice day.

Yep, he sure is.

 

[AD1066]

Is Curling an interesting sport played on Ice?
I was thinking of a substitute to Hockey...

I'd give Bandy a shot.

 

[bababooeyII]

Uh huh.

What more do you need? The Wings had a late season renaissance by their prospects last year, and then their farm team wins a Calder Cup and instead of securing spots in the lineup due to their performance and paying their dues, they are in worse of a spot then last year. Due to a GM who can't get rid of the past and fetish for older players. You seem ok with it, that's fine but I see a team who excelled due to their prospects last year, and the team they lost to excel due to their youth and fresher legs. I'm at a loss to explain it.

 

[SoupNazi]

What more do you need? The Wings had a late season renaissance by their prospects last year, and then their farm team wins a Calder Cup and instead of securing spots in the lineup due to their performance and paying their dues, they are in worse of a spot then last year. Due to a GM who can't get rid of the past and fetish for older players. You seem ok with it, that's fine but I see a team who excelled due to their prospects last year, and the team they lost to excel due to their youth and fresher legs. I'm at a loss to explain it.

My "uh huh" was directed at the notion that we'll let Emmerton go - he's a center and doesn't provide much cap relief at all. He's going nowhere unless Sheahan outplays him at camp. And that doesn't seem likely even if Sheahan does outplay him.

 

[Zetterberg4Captain]

is it fair to say Holland supporters feel
- late rd draft gems are why he is brillant, yet, trading away our highest draft pick in 20 years and passing up on the top goalie prospect in the world selected at that spot is irrelevant. One shows great insight in knowing to select Datsyuk in the late rounds, however, not knowing to keep a pick and select Vasilevsky dosent prove anything. Not sure how in life it can be one side but not the exact same opposite ever?

- letting your only two young top 6 forwards leave the organzation in back to back summers for free is meaningless despite the fact trading them if not really planning to resign them gains assets(even more important with an aging core no?) however signing/resigning a 4th line 20pt PK specialist is brillant?

-signing aging/injury prone 36 year olds to multi year deals and handing them NTC is smart/brillant and critical to long term team success

-bringing back a 34 year old injury riddled slow great locker room guy to a team already overloaded with signed players is smart, but, in doing so causes you to demote your best young players to the minors is just part of doing business in a league dominated by the best young prospects in the world? Hmmm...

the reason and the sole reason detroit has been in the playoffs 22 years and won cups were because of decisions made a long long time ago and are still paying dividends today. We all know it to be true

 

[Winger98]

is it fair to say Holland supporters feel
- late rd draft gems are why he is brillant, yet, trading away our highest draft pick in 20 years and passing up on the top goalie prospect in the world selected at that spot is irrelevant. One shows great insight in knowing to select Datsyuk in the late rounds, however, not knowing to keep a pick and select Vasilevsky dosent prove anything. Not sure how in life it can be one side but not the exact same opposite ever?

- letting your only two young top 6 forwards leave the organzation in back to back summers for free is meaningless despite the fact trading them if not really planning to resign them gains assets(even more important with an aging core no?) however signing/resigning a 4th line 20pt PK specialist is brillant?

-signing aging/injury prone 36 year olds to multi year deals and handing them NTC is smart/brillant and critical to long term team success

-bringing back a 34 year old injury riddled slow great locker room guy to a team already overloaded with signed players is smart, but, in doing so causes you to demote your best young players to the minors is just part of doing business in a league dominated by the best young prospects in the world? Hmmm...

the reason and the sole reason detroit has been in the playoffs 22 years and won cups were because of decisions made a long long time ago and are still paying dividends today. We all know it to be true

I don't know if I'm a "Holland supporter" or not. The not dealing Flip/Hudler for assets doesn't bother me much because the assets wouldn't be significant unless we dealt them at the trade deadline rather than after the season. But dealing them at the trade deadline essentially says you're giving up on any sort of playoff run because you're dealing your quality depth. It's easy to look back on that, knowing how the playoffs played out, and say it was a bad move. Unless we got something back that was really nice (mid1st rounder? bluechip prospect? young, quality player?), I'm not sure that's a move any of us make at the time.

I don't like drafting goalies high, so that's always okay with me. And I'm still okay dealing a first for Quincey. We needed some type of insurance for Lidstrom leaving, and injuries were gutting us at the time. we could go back to all of our picks that we traded and point to some guy picked there or afterwards and say, " We could have had Player X."

I've already said I'm not thrilled with the Cleary signing but am willing to wait and see how the roster shakes out, and that my problem with signing Sammy was that Holland didn't make any other moves to move another vet out to compensate.

I'm not happy with Holland's recent roster management, but I don't think he's destroyed the organization, either. And there is always the chance that the roster ends up looking like something we want.

 

[Zetterberg4Captain]

I don't know if I'm a "Holland supporter" or not. The not dealing Flip/Hudler for assets doesn't bother me much because the assets wouldn't be significant unless we dealt them at the trade deadline rather than after the season. But dealing them at the trade deadline essentially says you're giving up on any sort of playoff run because you're dealing your quality depth. It's easy to look back on that, knowing how the playoffs played out, and say it was a bad move. Unless we got something back that was really nice (mid1st rounder? bluechip prospect? young, quality player?), I'm not sure that's a move any of us make at the time.

I don't like drafting goalies high, so that's always okay with me. And I'm still okay dealing a first for Quincey. We needed some type of insurance for Lidstrom leaving, and injuries were gutting us at the time. we could go back to all of our picks that we traded and point to some guy picked there or afterwards and say, " We could have had Player X."

I've already said I'm not thrilled with the Cleary signing but am willing to wait and see how the roster shakes out, and that my problem with signing Sammy was that Holland didn't make any other moves to move another vet out to compensate.

I'm not happy with Holland's recent roster management, but I don't think he's destroyed the organization, either. And there is always the chance that the roster ends up looking like something we want.

i dont think he destroyed the roster and yes he is a good GM(overall) but simply disecting his moves over the last 5 years and how many of them have been impactful both today and for the years to come I dont think he has actually done a great or even good job.

that is all

 

[Winger98]

i dont think he destroyed the roster and yes he is a good GM(overall) but simply disecting his moves over the last 5 years and how many of them have been impactful both today and for the years to come I dont think he has actually done a great or even good job.

that is all

Fair enough, and I'd probably agree to the extent of him not doing a good job. I'm not happy with where we appear to be at - though that could change depending on what the lineup looks like when the season opens - but he's also kept us in the playoffs and technically competing. I'm still hoping a move or two during camp surprises us in a good way.

 

[Lord Stan 2020]

I think everyone is really very harsh on Holland. I dont blame him at all for pretty much what has happened over the last five years. Figure he is doing the best he can with the demands coming from a coach who basically chooses favorites for whatever reasons.

Kenny seems to try to put the best team forward he can even spending over what he should and trying to add assets year in and year out.

The problem is babcock's USE of the players kenny gives him.

That to me is plain and simple fact. Babcock puts way too much worth in guys who are slowing down or just plain replaceable.


The Franzen part of this is so stupid is maddening to be honest. The guy has a good contract for what he brings to the table. As the cap goes up if he stays where he is at currently which I expect he will be VERY UNDERPAID.

Now babcock goes to ken and says hey I need cleary for playoffs he did well last year he is solid in all areas. This is how Mike sees it even though the stat test and eye test doesnt agree. Last years playoffs points for cleary made him look like a better player to MIKE than he is. Mike likes the veterans and sometimes chooses a guy younger he also likes.

For whatever reason he is not solid on nyquist or tatar even though the EYE test and stat tests says he should be.

To me Mike is the problem and his evaluation of younger talent has always been the problem. He is also a hard head and so stubborn it can be infuriating to the max.

He won't admit to himself on people like cleary that yep he has a use but is now fourth line instead he will play abby on first or cleary.

That is just pure trash and hopefully Ken makes the right decisions next year and we stop having these old guys hanging on too long. Is a few who should be gone finally.

I hope for us this year but basically we are fielding the same team we did last year which barely squeeked into the playoffs. I no longer see an upside and blame not moving a couple of guys off the team for this.

I had us picked as second best team in our division. I do not have us there anymore unless we get lucky and a few injuries cause some time for the two kids to actually play or should I mention THREE?

 

[WingedWheel1987]

Are you seriously trying to blame Babcock for Kenny being a stubborn dinosaur?

 

[Zetterberg4Captain]

I think everyone is really very harsh on Holland. I dont blame him at all for pretty much what has happened over the last five years. Figure he is doing the best he can with the demands coming from a coach who basically chooses favorites for whatever reasons.

Kenny seems to try to put the best team forward he can even spending over what he should and trying to add assets year in and year out.

The problem is babcock's USE of the players kenny gives him.

That to me is plain and simple fact. Babcock puts way too much worth in guys who are slowing down or just plain replaceable.


The Franzen part of this is so stupid is maddening to be honest. The guy has a good contract for what he brings to the table. As the cap goes up if he stays where he is at currently which I expect he will be VERY UNDERPAID.

Now babcock goes to ken and says hey I need cleary for playoffs he did well last year he is solid in all areas. This is how Mike sees it even though the stat test and eye test doesnt agree. Last years playoffs points for cleary made him look like a better player to MIKE than he is. Mike likes the veterans and sometimes chooses a guy younger he also likes.

For whatever reason he is not solid on nyquist or tatar even though the EYE test and stat tests says he should be.

To me Mike is the problem and his evaluation of younger talent has always been the problem. He is also a hard head and so stubborn it can be infuriating to the max.

He won't admit to himself on people like cleary that yep he has a use but is now fourth line instead he will play abby on first or cleary.

That is just pure trash and hopefully Ken makes the right decisions next year and we stop having these old guys hanging on too long. Is a few who should be gone finally.

I hope for us this year but basically we are fielding the same team we did last year which barely squeeked into the playoffs. I no longer see an upside and blame not moving a couple of guys off the team for this.

I had us picked as second best team in our division. I do not have us there anymore unless we get lucky and a few injuries cause some time for the two kids to actually play or should I mention THREE?

if babs wants a lucic and you give him an abdelkader that thats on the GM,

 

[Lord Stan 2020]

Are you seriously trying to blame Babcock for Kenny being a stubborn dinosaur?

Uh yeah cause I think the reason we sign people like sammy and cleary etc.. is all based on babcock and not on Holland. They work hand in hand and Mike tells Ken what he NEEDS TO WIN. Mike said yesterday abby got a couple goals I was going to play cleary with datsyuk and zetterberg but now that is up in the AIR?

I like Clearys contract. I like Cleary on this team. I LIKE CLEARY AND ABBY on third and fourth lines till we get TWO GOAL LEADS lol.

To give guys like that 15 minutes or more and give tatar brunner and nyquist 8-10 IS INSANE and THAT IS THE COACH.

if babs wants a lucic and you give him an abdelkader that thats on the GM,

If you play abby on the first line for three years or second line and have options who are MUCH better scorers and PROVE that than THAT IS ON YOUR COACH NOT THE GM.

 

[WingedWheel1987]

Uh yeah cause I think the reason we sign people like sammy and cleary etc.. is all based on babcock and not on Holland. They work hand in hand and Mike tells Ken what he NEEDS TO WIN. Mike said yesterday abby got a couple goals I was going to play cleary with datsyuk and zetterberg but now that is up in the AIR?

I like Clearys contract. I like Cleary on this team. I LIKE CLEARY AND ABBY on third and fourth lines till we get TWO GOAL LEADS lol.

To give guys like that 15 minutes or more and give tatar brunner and nyquist 8-10 IS INSANE and THAT IS THE COACH.

Kenny has ignored Babcock before. Babs asked for help after the SJ series and Kenny did nothing. I am not buying it.

Holland signed Gator for that absurdly long deal (for a bottom six player) and Kenny is a person who overvalues home grown talent.

I do think Babcock has lost a lot of his luster the past couple seasons. I originally thought he was the best coach in the NHL, but now i view him as merely good, who is also living on past success.

 

[SoupNazi]

To give guys like that 15 minutes or more and give tatar brunner and nyquist 8-10 IS INSANE and THAT IS THE COACH.

Agreed.

 

[Zetterberg4Captain]

Uh yeah cause I think the reason we sign people like sammy and cleary etc.. is all based on babcock and not on Holland. They work hand in hand and Mike tells Ken what he NEEDS TO WIN. Mike said yesterday abby got a couple goals I was going to play cleary with datsyuk and zetterberg but now that is up in the AIR?

I like Clearys contract. I like Cleary on this team. I LIKE CLEARY AND ABBY on third and fourth lines till we get TWO GOAL LEADS lol.

To give guys like that 15 minutes or more and give tatar brunner and nyquist 8-10 IS INSANE and THAT IS THE COACH.




If you play abby on the first line for three years or second line and have options who are MUCH better scorers and PROVE that than THAT IS ON YOUR COACH NOT THE GM.

couldnt the GM simply not sign sammy, cleary, abdelkader etc?

if the coach says i want a physical, grinding, north-south guy for my top line you dont provide a 4th line player of that mold plus some soft, undersized skill guy and say here make this work, because, the coach will simply say ok 4th line guy get out there because thats the style of player he wants on that line, period.

if he wants a lucic you dont give him an abdelkader and a brunner, you give him a lucic end of story