William Nylander Part XV

[WTFMAN99]

We can't even enjoy being on top of the NHL's standings. They would not do this to any other team.

"OMG what if Matthews only signs for 5 years?"
"Kapanen pricing himself off the team"

Etc etc...just brutal.

 

[Bluelines]

Sadly the Kapanen thing is completely separate. He's not a winger that can also play center. His ceiling is probably not going to be like Nylander's. He might be on pace for a good point total this season, but a lot of players get on a line with a great player. That doesn't mean they all get big money. The other thing separate from Kapanen is that Nylander is pricing himself off the team.

The tough thing for Nylander is he may want to play center but currently he is not a good two way player that makes the likelihood of him playing center, for a Babcock coached team zero percent, by default that makes him a winger on this team.

Kapi is however a good 2 way defender, with great wheels, great fore checker and apparently can score at a higher pace with AM than Willie can, granted a small sample size and against poor teams. the defensive gap and effort level between the 2 players will 10 out of 10 times make Kapi a teachers pet with Babcock.

Willie may be a more gifted natural point maker but he is not necessarily a better fit with AM.

 

[SeenSchenn2]

Marleau’s contract is really hurting us

Was literally just playing around in ArmChair GM.

When we signed Marleau, we all had hoped he'd be Robias'd or traded for year 3.

If that is still the case, I think we'll be "OK". Still an infusion of ELCs, but hopefully we'd have a little more flexibility with the big 4, Dermott, etc.

 

[LeafFever]

Marleau's contract can be dumped imo.
I also think we can save a little $ by dumping Brown. I don't like his play at all the past 2 years. No one mentions his contract, but it helps a bit and is not necessary.

 

[4thline]

It's not all that bad. Good teams consistently lose players. If I had an option, I'd keep Nylander over Kapanen. Unless Marleau is somehow traded (he's got an NMC), we likely won't have both Kapanen and Nylander next year on a long term deal, only one.

But that's the thing, we don't need to have both locked up long term next season. We could bridge both and have them both on the roster for 19-20 + 20-21 for like 8mil combined giving us 3 years (this one included) of prime Tavares and a ridiculous wing group before we have to decide and pick one/ trade one.

 

[Nithoniniel]

"OMG what if Matthews only signs for 5 years?"
"Kapanen pricing himself off the team"

Etc etc...just brutal.

I get that this was directed at media, but it's the same kind of negativity I find among all kinds of fans nowadays too.

There was an article from someone in mainstream media that I got sent because there was some dumb anti-analytics stuff permeating it, but the underlying message in it was spot on in my opinion. Regardless of where I look these days, it seems that most fans try to distance themselves from fandom in favor of being the skeptical analysts. And they misunderstand skepticism for outright unrational negativity a lot of the times.

Being analytical in your fandom comes natural to some. I am like that, but thankfully I can still enjoy in the moment. But a lot of what I get out of sports is being able to analyse it. There's a whole lot of people both here and elsewhere that doesn't seem to enjoy it though, they just miss the great moments and then work themselves towards misery with faulty logic. Better to be a blind homer of a fan then, at least you enjoy what you are doing.

I remember a few games ago, I had to ask someone on this forum what he was doing. We had just won a game moments before, Tavares had just scored a hattrick, we topped the table, our other franchise center led the league in points and we had several others not far behind. And he said he couldn't enjoy that, because our new backup had a rough game and in a hypothetical future where the worst happens and Andersen gets injured in the playoffs, that one game indicated that our chances might lessen somewhat compared to the backup we got rid of.

When you reach a point where that becomes logical to you, then I think you've reached a point where you have managed to ruin fandom for yourself.

 

[WTFMAN99]

I get that this was directed at media, but it's the same kind of negativity I find among all kinds of fans nowadays too.

There was an article from someone in mainstream media that I got sent because there was some dumb anti-analytics stuff permeating it, but the underlying message in it was spot on in my opinion. Regardless of where I look these days, it seems that most fans try to distance themselves from fandom in favor of being the skeptical analysts. And they misunderstand skepticism for outright unrational negativity a lot of the times.

Being analytical in your fandom comes natural to some. I am like that, but thankfully I can still enjoy in the moment. But a lot of what I get out of sports is being able to analyse it. There's a whole lot of people both here and elsewhere that doesn't seem to enjoy it though, they just miss the great moments and then work themselves towards misery with faulty logic. Better to be a blind homer of a fan then, at least you enjoy what you are doing.

I remember a few games ago, I had to ask someone on this forum what he was doing. We had just won a game moments before, Tavares had just scored a hattrick, we topped the table, our other franchise center led the league in points and we had several others not far behind. And he said he couldn't enjoy that, because our new backup had a rough game and in a hypothetical future where the worst happens and Andersen gets injured in the playoffs, that one game indicated that our chances might lessen somewhat compared to the backup we got rid of.

When you reach a point where that becomes logical to you, then I think you've reached a point where you have managed to ruin fandom for yourself.

Yeah, I love playing armchair GM and I like to think of how the team could improve but what you just described just makes me cringe. We have good problems lately. We might need a 4C at some point, a bit of grit and a top 4D but we are also playing great.

The home opener compared to last night's game is night and day. The players are doing very well together and consider that we have a top 6 forward and 12M cap space just hanging out there as a team that is usually at the cap. I think we just have more potential to unlock at this point.

 

[ottomaddox]

It's Marleau's fault that we won't be able to run around yelling "Willy! Willy! Willy!"

 

[TheMadHatTrick]

I get what your saying, my take is I'd rather have players overachieving and have Cap issues which might mean moving great players for other assets instead of having players not lighting it up and being able to afford them. If their great your return if traded will be high. Why would a team want to keep players who under achieve however affordable they are?

Just to clarify, it's not about underachieving it's about opportunity. With Nylander here Kapanen would likely be playing with Kadri or Lindholm. He would not only enhance our depth and talent on those lines, but his numbers would be artificially suppressed just by virtue of ice time.

Look at Rielly. The year before we signed him to his long term contract, he was better than arguably all of our other defensemen and yet he was playing #4 defensemen minutes and seeing hardly any power play time.

If he was thrust into a bigger role at the time he'd likely be making 6M rather than 5 flat. It doesn't sound like a lot but it adds up. Right now his and Kadri's contracts are steals. The kind we're going to need more of as Matthews and Marner's contracts come up.

 

[thewave]

Just to clarify, it's not about underachieving it's about opportunity. With Nylander here Kapanen would likely be playing with Kadri or Lindholm. He would not only enhance our depth and talent on those lines, but his numbers would be artificially suppressed just by virtue of ice time.

Look at Rielly. The year before we signed him to his long term contract, he was better than arguably all of our other defensemen and yet he was playing #4 defensemen minutes and seeing hardly any power play time.

If he was thrust into a bigger role at the time he'd likely be making 6M rather than 5 flat. It doesn't sound like a lot but it adds up. Right now his and Kadri's contracts are steals. The kind we're going to need more of as Matthews and Marner's contracts come up.

We are going to be selling a lot of players in the next 6 years. So much creative talent on the ice everyone is going to score, trick is paying so we will be trading like CHI.

On the bright side management could turn the player mill into a business that can run for 20+ yrs of competitive hockey.

Draft and wait, stick with Matthews JT Marner Nylander and profit. In trade after they sign an RFA deal.

 

[Ratboy]

Facts are we don’t know what’s on offer.

If the Leafs are weary of a cash crunch, that cash crunch will still be there next year.

The market says a 22 year old RFA who puts up those kind of points on the top line is worth 6-7m this year.

The market doesn’t care whose name is on the contract.

If Kappy equals or exceeds Nyalnder’s production... and the Leafs do well in the playoffs... they’ll have to pay.

Whether the hold out is a function of selfishness or the team playing hardball... we don’t know.

I'm fine with 6 to 6.5. I think he's earned that much and I doubt they're offering something unreasonable. yeah, we dont know, but if hes asking for 8 then we know what the hold up is.

 

[Ratboy]

"OMG what if Matthews only signs for 5 years?"
"Kapanen pricing himself off the team"

Etc etc...just brutal.

OMG OFFER SHEETS!@!!!!

 

[Pi]

Marleau’s contract is really hurting us

Yeah. I doubt Dubas would have signed that contract.

I’m happy we got him but this third year is killer unless he’s being traded or bought out by a different team and coming back to us (like Orpik).

 

[LeafFever]

OMG OFFER SHEETS!@!!!!

Offer sheets never happen, but will to the Leafs only! And the NHL's most broke team that can't afford to even pay real money to reach the cap floor is going to pay Matthews 17 million per!!

 

[57 Years No Cup]

In these times of desperate need it is imperative that Dubas get on the phone immediately! Contact must be made with the Nylander camp to get William signed. This losing streak and offensive drought must be stopped!

 

[Pookie]

"OMG what if Matthews only signs for 5 years?"
"Kapanen pricing himself off the team"

Etc etc...just brutal.

Yes. The cap is brutal.

 

[Pookie]

But that's the thing, we don't need to have both locked up long term next season. We could bridge both and have them both on the roster for 19-20 + 20-21 for like 8mil combined giving us 3 years (this one included) of prime Tavares and a ridiculous wing group before we have to decide and pick one/ trade one.

Bridge deals are the most expensive way to pay for an asset.

 

[Trapper]

Yeah. I doubt Dubas would have signed that contract.

I’m happy we got him but this third year is killer unless he’s being traded or bought out by a different team and coming back to us (like Orpik).

At the time we had no idea we were getting Tavares (it was still a dream).
Marleau was the 1st player of UFA credibility to come to a young, rebuilding team that had been shunned as a destination due to futility and media. It doesn't show up on the stat sheet but he had a huge part in guiding Matthews/Marner with his longevity and daily professional attitude. He was the first highly respected star power from an organization for the kids to relate to. Much different life experience then asking a Bozak for advice. (No slight to Bozak, just what it is).

As long as Marleau scores his 20 goals and stays healthy, I don't see him going anywhere in his last year. I don't think they would do that to him. He left San Jose to come here and I think the term will be honoured.

 

[Bluelines]

Yes. The cap is brutal.

I hate the cap.

Teams that pay into the poor team fund should get the same amount of cap space on their own cap. For example if Toronto pays 15 million into the poor team fund, Toronto should get a 15 million dollar credit to the next years cap.

You buy the Leafs, you have to pay more than you would if you were to buy the Hurricanes, so it makes sense in my mind if I spend more to buy a team I should benefit by receiving a bigger return, why should I give my money to teams that don't have the first foggy clue how to make money in their market? Bettman logic.... sheesh...

 

[Pi]

At the time we had no idea we were getting Tavares (it was still a dream).
Marleau was the 1st player of UFA credibility to come to a young, rebuilding team that had been shunned as a destination due to futility and media. It doesn't show up on the stat sheet but he had a huge part in guiding Matthews/Marner with his longevity and daily professional attitude. He was the first highly respected star power from an organization for the kids to relate to. Much different life experience then asking a Bozak for advice. (No slight to Bozak, just what it is).

As long as Marleau scores his 20 goals and stays healthy, I don't see him going anywhere in his last year. I don't think they would do that to him. He left San Jose to come here and I think the term will be honoured.

I think Marleau wants to continue playing and that's fine, I just hope they can find some team to trade for him (with an incentive or two), buy him out so we can re-sign him at a cheaper AAV. It would be a strictly paper deal, he wouldn't have to physically go anywhere.

 

[Trapper]

I think Marleau wants to continue playing and that's fine, I just hope they can find some team to trade for him (with an incentive or two), buy him out so we can re-sign him at a cheaper AAV. It would be a strictly paper deal, he wouldn't have to physically go anywhere.

You can't buy a player out and re-sign them in the same fiscal year.

 

[Nithoniniel]

I hate the cap.

Teams that pay into the poor team fund should get the same amount of cap space on their own cap. For example if Toronto pays 15 million into the poor team fund, Toronto should get a 15 million dollar credit to the next years cap.

You buy the Leafs, you have to pay more than you would if you were to buy the Hurricanes, so it makes sense in my mind if I spend more to buy a team I should benefit by receiving a bigger return, why should I give my money to teams that don't have the first foggy clue how to make money in their market? Bettman logic.... sheesh...

It's a question whether you want to focus on logic of returns for owners, or the logic of having an as even playing field as possible for a competitive sport.

Personally, I've been a fan of several teams in league's without a cap system, and I've never been as excited for the possibility of winning as I am now with the Leafs. There's something cheap about success when 90% of the other teams don't have even nearly the same possibilities as you do. When we win, I want it to be all about us being more competent than the other teams. Not that we could afford an extra Doughty when they couldn't.

You can't buy a player out and re-sign them in the same fiscal year.

I think he meant Caps workaround. Another team buys him out, and then we resign him.

 

[Ratboy]

I hate the cap.

Teams that pay into the poor team fund should get the same amount of cap space on their own cap. For example if Toronto pays 15 million into the poor team fund, Toronto should get a 15 million dollar credit to the next years cap.

You buy the Leafs, you have to pay more than you would if you were to buy the Hurricanes, so it makes sense in my mind if I spend more to buy a team I should benefit by receiving a bigger return, why should I give my money to teams that don't have the first foggy clue how to make money in their market? Bettman logic.... sheesh...

At least a third of the league is basically on welfare. Who supports it? Well we sure pay a shit ton towards it.

and they hate us. ohhh do they hate us.

 

[Trapper]

It's a question whether you want to focus on logic of returns for owners, or the logic of having an as even playing field as possible for a competitive sport.

Personally, I've been a fan of several teams in league's without a cap system, and I've never been as excited for the possibility of winning as I am now with the Leafs. There's something cheap about success when 90% of the other teams don't have even nearly the same possibilities as you do. When we win, I want it to be all about us being more competent than the other teams. Not that we could afford an extra Doughty when they couldn't.


I think he meant Caps workaround. Another team buys him out, and then we resign him.

That's a pretty big favor and one that I can't ever remember being done in the NHL.
Traded for cap space never to return we've seen. Again at a cost.

 

[Nithoniniel]

That's a pretty big favor and one that I can't ever remember being done in the NHL.
Traded for cap space never to return we've seen. Again at a cost.

It's not a favor of they get an asset for it. Which is what the Caps did this very off-season.