William Nylander Part XV

[Willchel Marlynder]

Man, can't you be happy with a win?

He probably is happy with a win. Doesn't mean he can't comment on your ridiculously misinformed post. Matthews and Kappy look great this season. Matthews and Nylander were one of the best even strength duos last season. To say they have little chemistry is ludicrous. Maybe you should step away from this thread, go watch some highlights from last year and then come back.

 

[hector morrison]

Babs putting Nylander back on that line cannot happen. First, Kappy earned it. Babs is always shooting off about earning a spot, if he goes back on his word, players will notice. Also, Matthew has serious chemistry with Kappy. Matty never had that kind of chemistry with Nylander. Sure, there were some there, but not like this. Nylander would shore up Kadri's line.

Might be Marleau that leaves that line!

 

[rumman]

Pesce isn't a lateral move for Nylander. He's the best of a bad situation...In a bad situation that doesn't actually exist. Meaning, we are not in a position to be dictated to on Nylander's value by:

1. Time
2. Necessity.
3. Other teams taking advantage of a bad situation.
4. A closing window for contention.

I'd rather expend other assets on situations that begin to develop. Let's say...San Jose is down and out of a playoffs spot. Justin Braun becomes attractive. Maybe it's Detroit, the Rangers...Maybe it's the Golden Knights.

This to say, Brett Pesce isn't THE answer in a situation where we absolutely MUST acquire him and only him or someone like him...for William Nylander.

My preference outside the either/or scenario is to choose "other" and get Nylander onto the line with Kapanen and Matthews and acquire a Pesce-like piece or two at the trade deadline or before using any number of other appropriately valued pieces.

With Kapanen emerging and Hyman looking fantastic on the Tavares-Marner line...I can't wait to see Nylander on a line with Kapanen and Matthews....and in a Leafs sweater for a very long time.

fair enough, my take is Pesce's defense is BADLY needed while solving the Leafs cap issues, your take is we need more offense, screw the D and the cap implications going forward.

 

[57 Years No Cup]

Pesce isn't a lateral move for Nylander. He's the best of a bad situation...In a bad situation that doesn't actually exist. Meaning, we are not in a position to be dictated to on Nylander's value by:

1. Time
2. Necessity.
3. Other teams taking advantage of a bad situation.
4. A closing window for contention.

I'd rather expend other assets on situations that begin to develop. Let's say...San Jose is down and out of a playoffs spot. Justin Braun becomes attractive. Maybe it's Detroit, the Rangers...Maybe it's the Golden Knights.

This to say, Brett Pesce isn't THE answer in a situation where we absolutely MUST acquire him and only him or someone like him...for William Nylander.

My preference outside the either/or scenario is to choose "other" and get Nylander onto the line with Kapanen and Matthews and acquire a Pesce-like piece or two at the trade deadline or before using any number of other appropriately valued pieces.

With Kapanen emerging and Hyman looking fantastic on the Tavares-Marner line...I can't wait to see Nylander on a line with Kapanen and Matthews....and in a Leafs sweater for a very long time.

They need to sign Willie to a bridge and figure it out. I know that's not the preference but I think it's what is needed to get Willie back in the lineup.

They can figure out the rest of it from there.

 

[luvdahattymatty]

I literally have zero idea how you can claim Nylander and Matthews had little chemistry after watching the last two seasons....

Their 5v5 production together is overwhelmingly to the contrary...

Nylander not a good match for Matty. He holds Matty back from even better numbers. Matty needs to own the puck. Nylander likes to hold puck. Mix is not the best. Kappy is much better fit as he plays a game where Matty controls the puck and Kappy opens up more space for him just the way he plays. Breaking to net. Going into corners. Helping out on the wall.

 

[Chandrashekhar Limit]

Nylander not a good match for Matty. He holds Matty back from even better numbers. Matty needs to own the puck. Nylander likes to hold puck. Mix is not the best. Kappy is much better fit as he plays a game where Matty controls the puck and Kappy opens up more space for him just the way he plays. Breaking to net. Going into corners. Helping out on the wall.

Sounds like a Crosby-Kunitz scenario.

 

[ITM]

fair enough, my take is Pesce's defense is BADLY needed while solving the Leafs cap issues, your take is we need more offense, screw the D and the cap implications going forward.

How?

I'm saying Brett Pesce isn't appropriate value for William Nylander. I'm saying there are other similar players like Pesce in the league that might be had for less than a William Nylander. Defencemen that, every year, emerge from seemingly nowhere to establish a fulfilled potential not otherwise seen in years of amateur or professional scouting. Brett Pesce is one such example whose play is being amplified by his contract and distorted to apparent values that "could" in any number of possible scenarios yield the likes of: Ehlers, Pastrnak and Gaudreau.

And that's an insane, desperate, opposing GM's dream scenario that has no necessity of consideration in our situation with Nylander.

I'm saying, my preference is incorporate the forward that we drafted and that is property of the Toronto Maple Leafs and address appropriate needs with appropriately valued pieces at the time that's convenient for our club to that end.

Seven games into a season that's unsustainable isn't the right time to sell low on William Nylander and conversely buy high on Brett Pesce.

Another poster noted the Jonathan Drouin analogy to which I said, I'd buy into it so long as it was extended all the way through to that pivotal point where Steve Yzerman acquired Mikail Sergachev instead of...the Brett Pesces of the league.

 

[57 Years No Cup]

Nylander not a good match for Matty. He holds Matty back from even better numbers. Matty needs to own the puck. Nylander likes to hold puck. Mix is not the best. Kappy is much better fit as he plays a game where Matty controls the puck and Kappy opens up more space for him just the way he plays. Breaking to net. Going into corners. Helping out on the wall.

This is my thinking as well. Willie likes to carry the puck. Auston likes to carry the puck. Not a good fit.

At this point it appears they have Brown as the third line zone entry puck carrier now. He seems to be fitting in, but wouldn't Willie fit that role even better?

 

[Chandrashekhar Limit]

I think trading him for a top D would be the best move for the organization going forward.

One more top D would round out our D core very, very nicely.

Allows you to push one of Gardiner/Zaitsev to bottom pairing, and then next year Hainsey switched out for Liljegren.

If Liljegren pans out as expected that's a team with serious cup chances.

EDIT: Mixed up 2nd and 3rd pair

 

[Eb]

Man, can't you be happy with a win?

Lol what? Who said hes not happy about the win. This is the Nylander thread.

 

[Eb]

I think trading him for a top D would be the best move for the organization going forward.

One more top D would round out our D core very, very nicely.

Allows you to push one of Oz/Dermott to bottom pairing, and then next year Hainsey switched out for Liljegren.

If Liljegren pans out as expected that's a team with serious cup chances.

Yes, in an ideal world this works well

In reality, there’s no dman that fits same value

 

[Chandrashekhar Limit]

Yes, in an ideal world this works well

In reality, there’s no dman that fits same value

I'm gonna assume you mean there is no dman available that fits the same value.

Don't think that's true. Players like Nylander rarely become available. If we were to move him, I think a guy like Pesce could be had. I don't buy the typical HF crap of x/y is not available so we are not moving him.

When a player like Nylander becomes available teams will make players available to get him. The Johansson/Jones trade came out of nowhere. So did the Stewart/Johnsson.

I truly think if we made him available, we would get a top D back.

 

[rumman]

How?

I'm saying Brett Pesce isn't appropriate value for William Nylander. I'm saying there are other similar players like Pesce in the league that might be had for less than a William Nylander. Defencemen that, every year, emerge from seemingly nowhere to establish a fulfilled potential not otherwise seen in years of amateur or professional scouting. Brett Pesce is one such example whose play is being amplified by his contract and distorted to apparent values that "could" in any number of possible scenarios yield the likes of: Ehlers, Pastrnak and Gaudreau.

And that's an insane, desperate, opposing GM's dream scenario that has no necessity of consideration in our situation with Nylander.

I'm saying, my preference is incorporate the forward that we drafted and that is property of the Toronto Maple Leafs and address appropriate needs with appropriately valued pieces at the time that's convenient for our club to that end.

Seven games into a season that's unsustainable isn't the right time to sell low on William Nylander and conversely buy high on Brett Pesce.

Another poster noted the Jonathan Drouin analogy to which I said, I'd buy into it so long as it was extended all the way through to that pivotal point where Steve Yzerman acquired Mikail Sergachev instead of...the Brett Pesces of the league.

I agree there's no rush dealing Nylander, Dubas has all the Leverage in the situation. Leafs offense is fine without Nylander, in fact it's more than fine. The real problem is the defense, to which Pesce could go a long way to helping while helping with the impending cap issue facing the Leafs next season.

Two problems I see here are: 1 your under valuing not only Pesce, his contract, his age, and skill set, and over valuing a 1 dimensional winger who is currently a contract hold out, and if and when he returns creates real cap issues going forward. 2. you seem to think acquiring a D man to help the Leafs will be easy and cheap.

I'm pretty sure your not going to find a young quality D man with a favorable contract for anything less than Nylander. I'm not talking about vet's on the downside of their careers, or middling D men who'll be inline for a raise in a year or two. I'm talking about a cost control steady as a rock D man who can anchor your defense for years to come.

Simple fact is defense men are worth more than wingers, that's why they're so difficult to acquire.

 

[Faltorvo]

I don't see why Pesce doesn't get any love in this thread. I guess it's like moving from a sports car to a SUV, not anywhere near as flashy, but far more practical.

i truly don't know enough about his game

 

[Faltorvo]

5 hot games, not 3. And Matthews is the best 5-5 guy in the game right now. Like I said, Nylander and Matty had a little chemistry. Kappy and Matty have a lot of chemistry. Try again?

kappy has 8 est points in 5 games since joining that line.

 

[lifelonghockeyfan]

At that price, he's even MORE attractive to other teams and likely even more of a trade target.


What happens if Kappy scores 20 and has 40 assists this season. Does he want 8m too?

 

[Faltorvo]

Yeah, you know what,I don't get all this 'Willys Camp' bullshyte ,He is 22 years old. At 22 I was a man ,living on my own ,making my own decisions(for better or worse) and living life to the fullest everyday! Maybe his heart isn't in it anymore,because I'd be tellin' my Agent where to get off!

at 22 i had a mortgage and 1rst house.

 

[hector morrison]

at 22 i had a mortgage and 1rst house.

Yeah,there you go! Well,that brings up another aspect,he likely doesn't need the money,considering his background. So,it is based on principle or some sort of equivalency of his peers (one would think).
Best case scenario...he signs tomorrow,water under the bridge,move forward! If not,then ,there is something else going on!

 

[Faltorvo]

I think trading him for a top D would be the best move for the organization going forward.

One more top D would round out our D core very, very nicely.

Allows you to push one of Gardiner/Zaitsev to bottom pairing, and then next year Hainsey switched out for Liljegren.

If Liljegren pans out as expected that's a team with serious cup chances.

EDIT: Mixed up 2nd and 3rd pair

hainsey and gards are gone next year. we just don't have the cap space

 

[Ratboy]

Kapanen is turning you into a 5 mil AAV forward Willy. I'm gonna laugh if this blows up in his punk face even further.

 

[BertCorbeau]

TBH Nylander holding out has been a bounty for the Leafs as it's given them the opportunity to see what Kappy can do in a top 6 role.

Still would prefer to retain Nylander though. It'd have to be a Seth Jones like return for me to think otherwise.

 

[Nithoniniel]

I'm gonna assume you mean there is no dman available that fits the same value.

Don't think that's true. Players like Nylander rarely become available. If we were to move him, I think a guy like Pesce could be had. I don't buy the typical HF crap of x/y is not available so we are not moving him.

When a player like Nylander becomes available teams will make players available to get him. The Johansson/Jones trade came out of nowhere. So did the Stewart/Johnsson.

I truly think if we made him available, we would get a top D back.

Jones trade is the best comparable, if other teams view Willy as a center solution. And even that required a top end d-man being stuck behind two of the better d-men in the league for it to happen. Those circumstances are not there. As for Johnsson, Shattenkirk was a big part of that trade. I don't know if that's a very good example for what we want to look at here.

I disagree with you on availability too. Once you reach this combination of talent, youth and value, teams are hesitant to make moves unless they are for an absolute need. Columbus won't send Werenski our way just because Willy is available. Same with Provorov. They are simply way too important to their teams, at more important positions.

If we want to get the trade done, it would have to be for someone like Pesce. An older but lesser talent. That's not exactly a recipe for a good trade.

Edit: I really need to start proof reading before I post.

 

[Daisy Jane]

I’m highlighting it is hypocritical to implore a player to be a team guy when you break up a marriage of a teammate, demand a trade, etc.

It may be true that it’s a love story for the ages. It is also true that it’s hypocritical

so are you perfect? do you not tell your kid(s) not to something even though you've done it yourself in your past? don't we generally pass on life lessons based on what we did and wish we could change and that we know of what could happen down the pike, vs saying "hey i'm not gonna be hypocritical so never mind if i see you're doing something i think you could regret."

again. you can highlight anything you want. that has nothing to do with this, and you should stop talking about that because like Jon Snow, you know nothing about the situation.

 

[Polaris1010]

I literally have zero idea how you can claim Nylander and Matthews had little chemistry after watching the last two seasons....

Their 5v5 production together is overwhelmingly to the contrary...

Where was it in the Boston series?

Marleau - Matthews - Kapenan, this line has a much better chance against Boston the next time. Boston defence has trouble with speed.

Who scored a big goal in game 7 in that series? Looked like the winning goal.

But later guess who gave up the puck near the blueline on a soft play.

If Nylander does return, he has to earn his spot.

 

[ITM]

I agree there's no rush dealing Nylander, Dubas has all the Leverage in the situation. Leafs offense is fine without Nylander, in fact it's more than fine. The real problem is the defense, to which Pesce could go a long way to helping while helping with the impending cap issue facing the Leafs next season.

It's interesting...Along with this present stretch of offensive outlay, we're now first in the league in goal differential. Our PP is 1st, our PK is 9th. We need help on D, everyone does. We'll need cap friendly contracts going forward, everyone does. I just don't think Brett Pesce is worth William Nylander and I'd rather we pay appropriate prices without being gouged.

Two problems I see here are: 1 your under valuing not only Pesce, his contract, his age, and skill set, and over valuing a 1 dimensional winger who is currently a contract hold out, and if and when he returns creates real cap issues going forward. 2. you seem to think acquiring a D man to help the Leafs will be easy and cheap.

1. I'm not. I'm aware of his age, his production, his contract, all of it and I don't see why he is the constant go to when William Nylander's name is bandied about. It wouldn't be for Ehlers or Pastrnak or Gaudreau, but for some reason...It's a name coming up over and over and over again by fans when dealing Nylander and dealing him as soon as possible. I cite comparables for a reason, one of which is, for the sake of argument, if Nylander is one dimensional, he's extremely good in that one dimension and should be valued appropriately.

2. Where did I say or imply that? I happen to value our 1sts. I value many of our prospects and I value players like...Jake Gardiner despite the reflex to also throw him out with the bath water. I provided no such impression. And disagreeing that acquiring Pesce for Nylander isn't tantamount to claiming so.

I'm pretty sure your not going to find a young quality D man with a favorable contract for anything less than Nylander. I'm not talking about vet's on the downside of their careers, or middling D men who'll be inline for a raise in a year or two. I'm talking about a cost control steady as a rock D man who can anchor your defense for years to come.

In the reply you replied to, I noted Justin Braun and situations in Detroit, Vegas, New York...There are options there that aren't young per se that I didn't comment on but could be possibilities. At any rate, Justin Braun will be 32 in February. Trevor Daley is 35. Adam McQuaid is 32. Brayden McNabb will be 28 but shoots left. The point being, what Pesce provides isn't championship altering. Neither are the contributors above.

If the presumption is we HAVE to trade NOW...I get it. You agree we don't. So if we don't and the example of appropriate value being exchanged has been repeatedly achieved by other clubs (i.e. Drouin for Sergachev) then what's the defining factor that impels us to move against previously better achieved results?

Simple fact is defense men are worth more than wingers, that's why they're so difficult to acquire.

SOME defencemen are worth more than SOME wingers. ALL defencemen are not worth more than ALL wingers. And the reason premier defencemen are difficult to acquire is for the same reason that acquiring premier wingers is difficult to acquire. Because superior talent is always difficult to come by.

Even Calgary and Carolina's last deal serve as a reminder that we don't have to compromise. And why we would is baffling to me.