Rumor: Will the Leafs pull the trigger on Alex Pietrangelo this off-season?

[kb]

No only did Dubas find that hard place all by himself, he took the heaviest rock he could find and put it on himself all by himself. This stupidity of blasting 60% of your cap on 5 players is his choice and his choice alone.

Is this a Dubas thread?

Is it even remotely the least bit possible to have even one of your posts related to the topic at hand?

 

[ULF_55]

Uh......you know you pay more for ufa years right? This doesnt make sense. The basis of contracts are comparables and Marner ELC performance is statistically better due to the upward trend. In fact, his first rfa year bears it out with better stats so far to Kane. Like I said...at most he WAS overpaid by around .9mm. This is primarily due to the leafs not leveraging their rfa control. To say he is not worth it is just doubling down on wrong. Panarin signed for a lot more as a ufa without having cracked 90 points at an older age. The leafs overpaid for an asset that they had partial control but it doesnt mean his market value is 2 to 3 million less.

You mean Panarin who has scored 30, 31, 27, 28, 32 goals and WAS UFA when he signed the contract?

 

[ShaneFalco]

They can't even sign the goalie they want right now because of their cap situation. How are they going to get AP?

Fire them all

 

[Bluelines]

Is this a Dubas thread?

Is it even remotely the least bit possible to have even one of your posts related to the topic at hand?

The topic being signing Perto, which would come at and extreme price, which would further hamstring Dubas ability to ice a competitive team. It's kinda sad that you couldn't follow that connection...

 

[kb]

Fire them all

Hahaha....EF probably isn't big on math.

 

[nuck]

"we can and we will"

Saying it in the first place = inexperience
Believing he had to honor it = inexperience

I actually don't think he will hold himself to "we can and we will" unless he thinks it is a better or safer path than adding Pietro. That bold statement was made before he had signed them all and he has gradually made changes that reflect his original vision was proving not workable as is. I certainly hope he doesn't feel obligated to honor some uninformed statements he made before those deals, the flat cap, and learning more about the capability of this lineup.

In the post season presser he talked about "you all think that I have one way of going about things and its never changing" ....." the vision for me always has to be changing". "I think that the core has changed over four years" .... successful teams "make moves to help it (the core) if they can, or alter it, if its the perfect move for the group." I

If you listen to the Seth Jones comment around 28:00 I don't believe he is married to the big 4 as the path to winning. He gave himself a window, although maybe he feels a little different a month later.



Yes inexperienced moves and statements then but now he really isn't. I think he will consider AP if the money can be made to work but he won't mess with his top forward group unless there is the right value.

 

[stickty111]

Apparently the night before July 1st, Lou offered JT for Komarov, Martin and a draft pick in a sign and trade. Problem is there wasn't enough time to restructure JT's contract for the 8th year.
Mirtle also said Leafs are being patient but they will certainly try for Petra.

Rutherford also did a Q/A and said Blues getting a 1st rounder is a longshot for Petra, but they might take a forward roster player in a sign and trade.

 

[Stephen]

again. Petro HIMSELF came on tsn and said it.

he also talked to lebrun. Dreger. Rutherford and after direct conversations with him all reported he is interested in Toronto.

Aside from the Stamkos vs Tavares UFA pursuits, guys like Joseph, Roberts, Nieuwendyk, Corson, Lindros, O’Neill, Peca, Spezza, etc at various stages of their careers have made the commitment to come home to play for the Leafs. Just because he’s high profile and exactly what we need doesn’t mean Petro would be disingenuous about his interest in joining Toronto.

 

[Willchel Marlynder]

Holding Matthews, Marner, JT, Nylander to a dollar value that allows you to build a sold team is called doing your job. There is no rule that says you have to keep every player you draft, or you have to give every player whatever they want in contract negotiations. If a player puts getting paid the most or near the most in the league for his position and that puts you as a GM in a position where you cant build a strong balanced team, then you as a GM have to decide which trade offer you are going to take for him.

Nylander was a gift horse for Dubas and he messed it up. Your negotiating position is this, this is as high as I'm willing to go, take it or expect a trade. If Nylander was traded, it would have sent a shot across the bow of every player that was going to negotiate with Dubas. Kap would have not got 3 mil and change, AJ would have not got 3 mil and change, Marner would be below 10 mil, so on and so on and so on, eventually you save enough where you don't have to trade Kadri, you don't have to let Barrie walk, you have room to comfortably negotiate with Hyman.

If you want to be a Leaf this is my price, if you want to be the richest at your position, nice meeting you, have a nice career in Arizona or where ever. It does not make the player a bad person that they want to get paid and it does not make the GM a bad person he wants to stay with in a responsible cap number.

Hey right now I'm negotiating on Kijiji for something that is basically brand new, new it cost 3000, he was asking 2100, I offered 600 to start, he came back at the lowest he will go is 1500, I came back the highest I will go is 1000, I really want what he is selling but I know he will eventually cave because he wants to sell it more than I want to buy it. Same concept for Dubas, he wanted to buy it more than the player wanted to sell their services to Toronto, so he was always negotiating from behind and now he's dropped his pants for the last 7 signings, he has no leverage in any future signings. You have to know your opponent in any negotiation and you have to be willing to be patient..

I mean you're not wrong, but Nylander got fair value. The JT signing is what really got things going. I get it, UFA #1 center you're going to break the bank for that. However, offense wasn't the problem with team. Plus, when guys like Marner and Matthews outscore/outpace him they're gonna want their cut even though they are RFA's and shouldn't be given the moon. Especially when they haven't shown they can even get out of the first round of the playoffs). With a guy like Matthews he's you big name 1st overall pick, 1st line center. He's going to get whatever he wants. You just have to hope that he goes the McDavid route to help the team (even though he's in no way obligated to). He didn't and unfortunately now he's either going to go from 11.6 to something like 14 (Covid might impact this) or he walks after buying 1 year of free agency. Tough. Hindsight is 20/20 but if there was anyone you could and should have put your foot in the ground with it would have been Marner. Amazing player, and definitely deserves a big contract. But 11M? For a 90 point RFA winger, who can score but not at a level I'd expect for a 11M player? 9 should have been where he came in at for 6 year and when it's coming down to the wire and Marner wants a deal you say " Alright Mitch we want you on the ice. We'll go up to 9.5" if he doesn't take it than you sit him untill December just like Nylander. It's already a bit late because JT and Matthews have already signed their mega deals, but atleast you can stop the bleeding a bit and let our players know that we're not gonna overpay for no results. You want 11M Marner? Then you need to put on playoff performances like Braden Point. He looks better than all of our playoff scrubs (JT, and Nylander included).

 

[Stephen]

The topic being signing Perto, which would come at and extreme price, which would further hamstring Dubas ability to ice a competitive team. It's kinda sad that you couldn't follow that connection...

If we add Pietrangelo at a high price, we are still getting a player who will immediately be our best defenseman. That means we are suddenly bumping everyone down a slot. Rielly is suddenly a number 2, Muzzin and Holl can comfortably be on a second pairing and there’s a pool of defensemen who can compete for the third pairing. The D becomes a strength.

In terms of lost depth at forward, we probably won’t have name recognition behind the Big 4, but guys like Kadri, Brown, Kapanen, Johnsson, Kerfoot, Marleau were never particularly productive in our various playoff matchups anyway. Now we need to spend the money left with purpose on a grinder cast that can play a great forecheck and defensive game that we didn’t previously have. But in terms of difficulty, that’s the relatively easy stuff.

 

[Jozay]

Probably makes the cap situation too top heavy.

Leafs would be fine if they could find a solid, steady top 4 rhd. Dont necessarily need a guy of Piets level, although would be nice.

Spread out the cap a little more and if you do a good job, those players will have more combined positive impact than pietrangelo

Get a new goalie and make some changes to the way we play and we'll be fine.

 

[Stephen]

Probably makes the cap situation too top heavy.

Leafs would be fine if theh coild find a solid, steady top 4 rhd. Dont necessarily need a guy of Piets level, although would be nice.

Spread out the cap a little more and if you do a good job, those players will have more combined positive impact than pietrangelo

I don't think you'll get more for your dollar with 2 lesser guys on defense. One year Toronto had defensive problems and signed Pavel Kubina and Hal Gill for a combined $7.5 million. Boston paid out the same for Zdeno Chara and they've been laughing ever since.

 

[Dekes For Days]

High-end players almost always provide more impact than multiple smaller pieces at the same cost.

There's an argument to not sign Pietrangelo, but it's not to go spend that same money on two lesser defensemen.

 

[orbiter11]

Part of me thinks the Blues don't want Pietro back. I think they've just offered him a contract to say they've offered him a contract. I don't think the Leafs need to offer more than $8M/year to get him.

I cant see any other reason in signing Faulk at 6 mill per if they were going to keep Pie. And there certainly not moving Parayko.

 

[orbiter11]

I mean you're not wrong, but Nylander got fair value. The JT signing is what really got things going. I get it, UFA #1 center you're going to break the bank for that. However, offense wasn't the problem with team. Plus, when guys like Marner and Matthews outscore/outpace him they're gonna want their cut even though they are RFA's and shouldn't be given the moon. Especially when they haven't shown they can even get out of the first round of the playoffs). With a guy like Matthews he's you big name 1st overall pick, 1st line center. He's going to get whatever he wants. You just have to hope that he goes the McDavid route to help the team (even though he's in no way obligated to). He didn't and unfortunately now he's either going to go from 11.6 to something like 14 (Covid might impact this) or he walks after buying 1 year of free agency. Tough. Hindsight is 20/20 but if there was anyone you could and should have put your foot in the ground with it would have been Marner. Amazing player, and definitely deserves a big contract. But 11M? For a 90 point RFA winger, who can score but not at a level I'd expect for a 11M player? 9 should have been where he came in at for 6 year and when it's coming down to the wire and Marner wants a deal you say " Alright Mitch we want you on the ice. We'll go up to 9.5" if he doesn't take it than you sit him untill December just like Nylander. It's already a bit late because JT and Matthews have already signed their mega deals, but atleast you can stop the bleeding a bit and let our players know that we're not gonna overpay for no results. You want 11M Marner? Then you need to put on playoff performances like Braden Point. He looks better than all of our playoff scrubs (JT, and Nylander included).

Im not a Dubas fan but the problem wasn't signing Tavares and I agree that Nylander got on the high end of fair value(I think it was the plan to wait half the season to get his cap av down). The problem is acting like Marner is the best winger to play the game. And at the time Matthews wasn't playing top line center and his all around game needed a lot of work. I look at it if you have Tavares, Matthews , Kadri up the middle and Anderson in net, you build around that and quit pumping the tires on Marner and Nylander or anyone else. If Pietro wants to sign in Toronto you probably do it, considering hes only missed like 35 games his entire career, but you have to move Marner period. Im not confident in Dubas handling this especially after the contract he just gave him. You sing Pietro and move for someone like Manson or a deal with the Devils for 7th overall , Severson ,Wood or Bratt. It doesn't matter who your wingers are with Tavares and Matthews they'll both put up 90 plus points regardless.

 

[Notsince67]

You mean Panarin who has scored 30, 31, 27, 28, 32 goals and WAS UFA when he signed the contract?

My point is that the overpayment was associated with not leveraging rfa control. It was the leafs overpayment. It does reflect market value of the player at the moment. The leafs gave up their control...control no one else had. Panarin signed his deal at 27 and it will take him to 34. His contract takes him through his best years. Panarin best years are now and he will decline. Valuing Marner as over paid by 2 or more million has no basis in reality. He is fully paid. Leafs should have had a discount but they didnt. Nylander had a decent year but his first on his contract was atrocious. He got paid for 40% of 1 season that he didnt play and his played 60% was at a 41 point annualized pace. Marners bad year was over a 90 point annualized pace. A few more bad years like that and he might make the hall of fame.

 

[A1LeafNation]

EA Sports NHL 2020 is usually pretty easy. What do we trade for NYR next 1st stringer? Pierre Engvall right? This GM stuff is so easy...

They have 3 goalies and can't move Lundqvist.

Shesterkin is the NYR future #1.

Proven goalies fetch a 1st potential goalies get a 2nd or 3rd.

 

[Bluelines]

If we add Pietrangelo at a high price, we are still getting a player who will immediately be our best defenseman. That means we are suddenly bumping everyone down a slot. Rielly is suddenly a number 2, Muzzin and Holl can comfortably be on a second pairing and there’s a pool of defensemen who can compete for the third pairing. The D becomes a strength.

In terms of lost depth at forward, we probably won’t have name recognition behind the Big 4, but guys like Kadri, Brown, Kapanen, Johnsson, Kerfoot, Marleau were never particularly productive in our various playoff matchups anyway. Now we need to spend the money left with purpose on a grinder cast that can play a great forecheck and defensive game that we didn’t previously have. But in terms of difficulty, that’s the relatively easy stuff.

Is Petro going to play 40 min a game? Last time I checked we are missing a 1st and 2nd line RD.

Our 3rd and 4th lines are hot garbage.

We'd be better off with 2 very good defenders than on elite defenders

Rielly-Brodie
Muzzin-Tanev
Dermott-Holl

IMO is better than

Rielly-Petro
Muzzing-Holl
Dermott-???

You might pay a few dollars more for Tanev/Brodie than Petro alone. Petro gets hurt you are left with a shitty D. Tanev gets hurt you still have Brodie.

 

[Bluelines]

They have 3 goalies and can't move Lundqvist.

Shesterkin is the NYR future #1.

Proven goalies fetch a 1st potential goalies get a 2nd or 3rd.

It was reported yesterday they are going to buy out King Henry

 

[A1LeafNation]

It was reported yesterday they are going to buy out King Henry

Source?

 

[Bluelines]

I've see no numbers on this so lets say Petro takes the same dollars with the Leaf's as St. Lou, we have to do it over 7 years.

	$ 81,500,000.00	% of Cap
Matthews	$ 11,634,000.00	14%
Tavares	$ 11,000,000.00	13%
Marner	$ 10,893,000.00	13%
Nylander	$ 6,962,366.00	9%
Muzzin	$ 5,625,000.00	7%
Rielly	$ 5,000,000.00	6%
Andersen	$ 5,000,000.00	6%
Petro	$ 9,142,857.14	11%
Total	$ 65,257,223.14	80%

[TBODY] [/TBODY]

You'd have FOUR players making 52% of the cap, AM, JT, MM, AP. That is insane. No other way to put it.

 

[Bluelines]

Source?

TV.. you could probably google it.

 

[A1LeafNation]

TV.. you could probably google it.

Report: Rangers will not buyout Henrik Lundqvist this weekend - Forever Blueshirts: A site for New York Rangers fanatics

 

[egd27]

I actually don't think he will hold himself to "we can and we will" unless he thinks it is a better or safer path than adding Pietro. That bold statement was made before he had signed them all and he has gradually made changes that reflect his original vision was proving not workable as is. I certainly hope he doesn't feel obligated to honor some uninformed statements he made before those deals, the flat cap, and learning more about the capability of this lineup.

In the post season presser he talked about "you all think that I have one way of going about things and its never changing" ....." the vision for me always has to be changing". "I think that the core has changed over four years" .... successful teams "make moves to help it (the core) if they can, or alter it, if its the perfect move for the group." I

If you listen to the Seth Jones comment around 28:00 I don't believe he is married to the big 4 as the path to winning. He gave himself a window, although maybe he feels a little different a month later.



Yes inexperienced moves and statements then but now he really isn't. I think he will consider AP if the money can be made to work but he won't mess with his top forward group unless there is the right value.

Some valid points

I was referring to how the negotiations were handled with WN, WM and MM though perhaps I didn’t make that as apparent as I could have.

I hope he is no longer tying himself to that, as he could and he did. So that ones over.

Time to figure out what’s next.

 

[Gabriel426]

Some valid points

I was referring to how the negotiations were handled with WN, WM and MM though perhaps I didn’t make that as apparent as I could have.

I hope he is no longer tying himself to that, as he could and he did. So that ones over.

Time to figure out what’s next.

Does it matters? It will be pretty foolish if Dubas ever believed in not ever trading the MNM trio. I never believe in whatever players or mgt said bc situation always change. Just look at Raptors and Masai. DD would probably still be a Raptors if Kawhi stayed in SA.