Rumor: Will the Leafs pull the trigger on Alex Pietrangelo this off-season?

[Amadeus]

Henrik Lundqvist to replace Freddie for a year or two if he gets bought out? Hmm...

 

[Gallagbi]

Report: Rangers will not buyout Henrik Lundqvist this weekend - Forever Blueshirts: A site for New York Rangers fanatics

That's all I could find as well

 

[A1LeafNation]

If the Leafs land AP, where do they rank in the NHL in terms of defence? Top 10?

Top 4:
Rielly Pietrangelo
Muzzin Holl

Bottom pair would be a combo of Dermott Sandin Liljegren Lehtonen.

 

[Dekes For Days]

If the Leafs land AP, where do they rank in the NHL in terms of defence? Top 10?

Top 4:
Rielly Pietrangelo
Muzzin Holl

Bottom pair would be a combo of Dermott Sandin Liljegren Lehtonen.

Easily in the top 10. I'm struggling to think of a better top 3 defensemen.

 

[ACC1224]

If the Leafs land AP, where do they rank in the NHL in terms of defence? Top 10?

Top 4:
Rielly Pietrangelo
Muzzin Holl

Bottom pair would be a combo of Dermott Sandin Liljegren Lehtonen.

Holl is the weak link in the top 4 and needs to be moved to the bottom pair.

 

[Havoc]

Holl is the weak link in the top 4 and needs to be moved to the bottom pair.

I second this.

Someone third it so Dubas knows it's official.

 

[CantLoseWithMatthews]

Easily in the top 10. I'm struggling to think of a better top 3 defensemen.

Josi-Ekholm-Ellis is better, but I'd take Dermott-Holl-Lehtonen over Fabbro-Tinordi-Weber. Hedman-McDonagh-Sergachev is up there too but that's a lot closer, and again I'd prefer the Leafs' bottom 3 defensemen

 

[ULF_55]

Holl is the weak link in the top 4 and needs to be moved to the bottom pair.

I would hope someone already in the system is better than Holl ... otherwise Leafs really don't have a solid top 4 on defense.

Holl shouldn't be on the 2nd. pairing of a good team.

 

[4thline]

Holl is the weak link in the top 4 and needs to be moved to the bottom pair.

We don't need to ice the leagues best defense to win the cup, Capitals did it with Kempny as Carlson's partner.

Muzzin+Pietro >> Orlov+Niskanen
Rielly + Holl ?? Kempny+ Carlson

 

[Mitchy]

Holl is a good d-man. Ideally, he'd carry a bottom pairing, but he still makes a great 2nd pairing with Muzzin, all while facing the other team's top players

 

[stickty111]

I would hope someone already in the system is better than Holl ... otherwise Leafs really don't have a solid top 4 on defense.

Holl shouldn't be on the 2nd. pairing of a good team.

Holl is a fine #4 d man. Get Petra and the top 4 is really strong.

 

[Jimmy Firecracker]

Holl isn't overly skilled and plays a simple enough, defensively sound game, but that doesn't mean it's the end of the world if he's playing beside Muzzin and they're getting good results shutting down other teams. Sometimes chemistry trumps individual skill or talent.

Though it wouldn't be terrible to separate Muzzin and Holl if Lehtonen comes in better than simply a bottom pairing guy. Dermott-Holl had better defensive numbers than Muzzin-Holl, but the latter pairing was better at driving the puck offensively.

From here:

 

[Menzinger]

Holl is the weak link in the top 4 and needs to be moved to the bottom pair.

While id agree he'd ideally be on the bottom pairing, I think Tampa's d structure shows that you can't always build thr ideally balanced d strucutre -ie as they run a bottom pairing guy on their second paring. Pietro + Muzzin + Rielly should be more than capable of carrying thr bulk of the load

 

[CantLoseWithMatthews]

I would hope someone already in the system is better than Holl ... otherwise Leafs really don't have a solid top 4 on defense.

Holl shouldn't be on the 2nd. pairing of a good team.

Holl was on the 2nd pairing of a good team. the Leafs were 8th in the league by points percentage and 5th in ROW under Keefe with Holl getting 2nd pair minutes

 

[Superstar]

Holl is the weak link in the top 4 and needs to be moved to the bottom pair.

How could Holl be the weak link? He thinks he's Bobby Orr and makes those pinches at times...

 

[Mickey Marner]

How could Holl be the weak link? He thinks he's Bobby Orr and makes those pinches at times...

Lol, I really hate his pinches too. He just ends up in the right corner every time with no idea what to do next.

 

[Stephen]

Is Petro going to play 40 min a game? Last time I checked we are missing a 1st and 2nd line RD.

Our 3rd and 4th lines are hot garbage.

We'd be better off with 2 very good defenders than on elite defenders

Rielly-Brodie
Muzzin-Tanev
Dermott-Holl

IMO is better than

Rielly-Petro
Muzzing-Holl
Dermott-???

You might pay a few dollars more for Tanev/Brodie than Petro alone. Petro gets hurt you are left with a shitty D. Tanev gets hurt you still have Brodie.

I'm not sure why you've put a question mark beside Dermott on the third pairing when we all know that Sandin, Liljegren and Lehtonen are signed at under a million dollars.

There are 120 minutes of blueline play in every hockey game. Pietrangelo and Rielly will eat up between 24-25 minutes, and Muzzin and Holl will each eat up about 22 and 18 minutes each. That covers 90 minutes of play so you just need two guys who can play 15 minutes each. Dermott is one of them, and the other you can audition.

The idea that we wouldn't invest in a 25 minute franchise defenseman because of a 3rd and 4th line is absurd. 3 guys playing on a third line will play about 10 minutes each if they're good which is barely more than the elite minutes Petro would bring.

If we look at the way Tampa has stocked certain portions of their roster with dumpster dives, I'm not concerned about the loss in depth at all.

As far as Brodie and Tanev are concerned? That's like investing in Kubina and Gill over Chara all over again.

 

[Jimmy Firecracker]

The idea that we wouldn't invest in a 25 minute franchise defenseman because of a 3rd and 4th line is absurd. 3 guys playing on a third line will play about 10 minutes each if they're good which is barely more than the elite minutes Petro would bring.

 

[ULF_55]

I'm not sure why you've put a question mark beside Dermott on the third pairing when we all know that Sandin, Liljegren and Lehtonen are signed at under a million dollars.

There are 120 minutes of blueline play in every hockey game. Pietrangelo and Rielly will eat up between 24-25 minutes, and Muzzin and Holl will each eat up about 22 and 18 minutes each. That covers 90 minutes of play so you just need two guys who can play 15 minutes each. Dermott is one of them, and the other you can audition.

The idea that we wouldn't invest in a 25 minute franchise defenseman because of a 3rd and 4th line is absurd. 3 guys playing on a third line will play about 10 minutes each if they're good which is barely more than the elite minutes Petro would bring.

If we look at the way Tampa has stocked certain portions of their roster with dumpster dives, I'm not concerned about the loss in depth at all.

As far as Brodie and Tanev are concerned? That's like investing in Kubina and Gill over Chara all over again.

Hal Gill was at best a 3rd pairing.

Kubina was not a problem, the entire team was heading into the tank.

 

[Stephen]

Hal Gill was at best a 3rd pairing.

Kubina was not a problem, the entire team was heading into the tank.

No, but if you remember they both totalled up to the same cap hit Boston paid for Chara that same summer. And I think it illustrates the difference between what quality and quantity can do for a franchise.

 

[Eternal Leaf]

Is Petro going to play 40 min a game? Last time I checked we are missing a 1st and 2nd line RD.

Our 3rd and 4th lines are hot garbage.

We'd be better off with 2 very good defenders than on elite defenders

Rielly-Brodie
Muzzin-Tanev
Dermott-Holl

IMO is better than

Rielly-Petro
Muzzing-Holl
Dermott-???

You might pay a few dollars more for Tanev/Brodie than Petro alone. Petro gets hurt you are left with a shitty D. Tanev gets hurt you still have Brodie.

What's going to happen to Sandin/Liljegren/Lehtonen in your first example?

Two of those guys need minutes to develop, which can easily happen in a sheltered role with Rielly, Petro, Muzzin taking all of the difficult minutes.

Leafs have always done things the wrong way when developing defensive prospects.

1) They push them into impossible roles such as the first pairing

OR

2) They simply don't include them and keep signing UFAs leaving them with no spots

It's important to have two open spots and let Dermott, Liljegren, Sandin, and Lehtonen fight over them. While the other two become depth pieces for injury.

 

[Bluelines]

I'm not sure why you've put a question mark beside Dermott on the third pairing when we all know that Sandin, Liljegren and Lehtonen are signed at under a million dollars.

There are 120 minutes of blueline play in every hockey game. Pietrangelo and Rielly will eat up between 24-25 minutes, and Muzzin and Holl will each eat up about 22 and 18 minutes each. That covers 90 minutes of play so you just need two guys who can play 15 minutes each. Dermott is one of them, and the other you can audition.

The idea that we wouldn't invest in a 25 minute franchise defenseman because of a 3rd and 4th line is absurd. 3 guys playing on a third line will play about 10 minutes each if they're good which is barely more than the elite minutes Petro would bring.

If we look at the way Tampa has stocked certain portions of their roster with dumpster dives, I'm not concerned about the loss in depth at all.

As far as Brodie and Tanev are concerned? That's like investing in Kubina and Gill over Chara all over again.

Yeah, your memory might be a bit short but do you recall what our bottom 3 lines did in the qualifying round? Remember how they were so effective the coach felt his only way to win was to put our top 2 centers and RW on one line and play the rest of the forwards less.

You keep binging up Chara like you think you have some kind of point, which you don't. You do get that Chara has had the fortune of playing with a well balanced team, (are the Leafs well balanced?) with elite goaltending, (do we have elite goal tending?) over his tenure? You do get the the Bruins have been able to balance their line up right because of smart contracts? Who is our Bergeron? You do get that Boston doesn't have 51% of their cap tied up in 4 players, which is what we would have at a minimum if we sign Petro. Yu do get that if Petro signed here our team would have zero balance, zero elite goaltending after Andy leaves and zero chance that the Leafs win the cup in the next 5 years? So with the exception of Chara and AP both headed to the HOF, there is nothing similar in the situation between Toronto and Boston

So we dumped Kappy, 20 goals. To fit AP in we have to dump salary, lets say its Nylander. that's 30 goals. Your telling me that AP is going to replace 50 goals or suppress 50 goals? So now we got who playing RW with Matthews? Malgin? Bracco? Rodrigues? Cause that who our top 3 RW are who have NHL experience. Tell me does it make sense to invest almost $12 million into a player then give him AHL talent to play with? If you want to guarantee Matthews is gone when the contract runs out, saddle him with a LW and RW who are better off in the AHL

So when we sign AP to a contract around $10 mil, how much is Rielly worth? Cause you know he's coming with the Brinks trucks backing up looking for a deal in the 7 to 8 mil range.

IIRC Brodie played with Gio in his Norris year. Tanev is an incredible defender, maybe a little injury prone. Their scouting reports sound pretty awesome TBH.

At the end of the day if there was no cap, absolutely, AP is my go to guy 100 out of 100 times, but when you live on a budget you can't just spend like a drunken sailor.

Just because Tampa is competent in building a team, does not mean Toronto has equal compentcy. You like to find these false equivalencies like the Chara example and the Tampa one and then think because its was done once, that is easily transferable to Toronto, life does not work that way. Let me try it, you know since Tampa can find bargains , Ottawa can too. Because Toronto finished last and drafted Matthews... NYR is going to draft a player = to Matthews this year too. Because NYR signed an elite shooter in Panarin, Minny is going to sign one this year.

Brodie (20:27 last year)
SCOUTING REPORT

Moves the puck well and is an even better skater--he is fast and agile. Has intriguing offensive ability. Can run the power play and jump up into the rush. Is capable of logging huge amounts of ice time. Could stand to get physically stronger in order to win even more battles at the NHL level, since he is a tad undersized. Also, he has a tendency to occasionally drift and lose concentration when in the game.

Excellent, big-minute defenseman.

[TBODY] [/TBODY]

Tanev (19:32 last year)
SCOUTING REPORT

Moves the puck well and owns solid overall ability from the back end. Defends his position with aplomb. Is very mobile and usually makes the safe, smart play with the puck. Could stand to fill out his lanky frame to maximize output in the NHL. Lacks a physical edge to his game, which limits his overall shutdown ability. Is not a big point producer.

Quality, mobile puck-moving defenseman.

[TBODY] [/TBODY]

 

[Bluelines]

What's going to happen to Sandin/Liljegren/Lehtonen in your first example?

Two of those guys need minutes to develop, which can easily happen in a sheltered role with Rielly, Petro, Muzzin taking all of the difficult minutes.

Leafs have always done things the wrong way when developing defensive prospects.

1) They push them into impossible roles such as the first pairing

OR

2) They simply don't include them and keep signing UFAs leaving them with no spots

It's important to have two open spots and let Dermott, Liljegren, Sandin, and Lehtonen fight over them. While the other two become depth pieces for injury.

The NHL is not a development league, they can stay on the farm and learn how to paly the game with out the pressure of the NHL

 

[Stephen]

Yeah, your memory might be a bit short but do you recall what our bottom 3 lines did in the qualifying round? Remember how they were so effective the coach felt his only way to win was to put our top 2 centers and RW on one line and play the rest of the forwards less.

You keep binging up Chara like you think you have some kind of point, which you don't. You do get that Chara has had the fortune of playing with a well balanced team, (are the Leafs well balanced?) with elite goaltending, (do we have elite goal tending?) over his tenure? You do get the the Bruins have been able to balance their line up right because of smart contracts? Who is our Bergeron? You do get that Boston doesn't have 51% of their cap tied up in 4 players, which is what we would have at a minimum if we sign Petro. Yu do get that if Petro signed here our team would have zero balance, zero elite goaltending after Andy leaves and zero chance that the Leafs win the cup in the next 5 years? So with the exception of Chara and AP both headed to the HOF, there is nothing similar in the situation between Toronto and Boston

So we dumped Kappy, 20 goals. To fit AP in we have to dump salary, lets say its Nylander. that's 30 goals. Your telling me that AP is going to replace 50 goals or suppress 50 goals? So now we got who playing RW with Matthews? Malgin? Bracco? Rodrigues? Cause that who our top 3 RW are who have NHL experience. Tell me does it make sense to invest almost $12 million into a player then give him AHL talent to play with? If you want to guarantee Matthews is gone when the contract runs out, saddle him with a LW and RW who are better off in the AHL

So when we sign AP to a contract around $10 mil, how much is Rielly worth? Cause you know he's coming with the Brinks trucks backing up looking for a deal in the 7 to 8 mil range.

IIRC Brodie played with Gio in his Norris year. Tanev is an incredible defender, maybe a little injury prone. Their scouting reports sound pretty awesome TBH.

At the end of the day if there was no cap, absolutely, AP is my go to guy 100 out of 100 times, but when you live on a budget you can't just spend like a drunken sailor.

Just because Tampa is competent in building a team, does not mean Toronto has equal compentcy. You like to find these false equivalencies like the Chara example and the Tampa one and then think because its was done once, that is easily transferable to Toronto, life does not work that way. Let me try it, you know since Tampa can find bargains , Ottawa can too. Because Toronto finished last and drafted Matthews... NYR is going to draft a player = to Matthews this year too. Because NYR signed an elite shooter in Panarin, Minny is going to sign one this year.

Brodie (20:27 last year)
SCOUTING REPORT

Moves the puck well and is an even better skater--he is fast and agile. Has intriguing offensive ability. Can run the power play and jump up into the rush. Is capable of logging huge amounts of ice time. Could stand to get physically stronger in order to win even more battles at the NHL level, since he is a tad undersized. Also, he has a tendency to occasionally drift and lose concentration when in the game.

Excellent, big-minute defenseman.

[TBODY] [/TBODY]

Tanev (19:32 last year)
SCOUTING REPORT

Moves the puck well and owns solid overall ability from the back end. Defends his position with aplomb. Is very mobile and usually makes the safe, smart play with the puck. Could stand to fill out his lanky frame to maximize output in the NHL. Lacks a physical edge to his game, which limits his overall shutdown ability. Is not a big point producer.

Quality, mobile puck-moving defenseman.

[TBODY] [/TBODY]

What it comes down to is philosophical difference of how we can spend our money. Do I think the Leafs could be a deeper, more versatile team that can roll 4 lines and have 3 balanced defensive pairings like a Vegas? And could that team be better in the playoffs? Sure I do.

But with the resources that we have, and the way the Big 4 make up a big chunk of the roster, I think we’re better off getting the highest caliber player to bump everyone down than waste time on Brodie and Tanev. How much better is Brodie going to be than Barrie. How much better is Tanev going to be than Ceci? Maybe a little, maybe a lot. But Pietrangelo is blue chip and you know what you’re getting.

In terms of losing depth up front to pay for all of this, Kerfoot and Kapanen were useless, and Johnsson was hurt for most of the play in but based on his regular season he was useless too. And we frankly don’t have the cap to get 2-3 guys who can score a bunch on the third line. So why pay the premium to renovate a third scoring line when we can build an affordable bottom 6 checking and energy group that actually fulfills roles?

At the end of the day, if you think having too many great players at heavy contracts is a massive problem we can still trade them for a couple of more acceptably mediocre players on cheaper contracts.

 

[Jimmy Firecracker]

Hal Gill was at best a 3rd pairing.

Kubina was not a problem, the entire team was heading into the tank.

Hal Gill was the level of defenseman the Leafs would be able to afford if they went out and got a Tanev or Brodie to fill the top four role beside Rielly. And true that team and core was going down, but at the time they were still trying to compete (and likely would’ve at least made the playoffs if they’d fixed their god forsaken awful goaltending).

In any case, that D Corps included Kaberle, McCabe, Belak, White, and Colaiacovo. Two offensive stars capable of top pair minutes, a bottom pairing tough guy, and two young defensemen. Hard to argue that Chara wouldn’t have put that group over the top, they did only miss the post season by one point, and perhaps Chara’s iMacs could’ve helped White and Carlo develop into better defenders.