Rumor: Will the Leafs pull the trigger on Alex Pietrangelo this off-season?

[Wafflewhipper]

I’m not even going to dispute the signing of Pietrangelo any longer. St Louis refusing signing bonuses is their own fault. Ifthey refuse and we sign him as we could, I’ll just accept his big right shot and 15 goals from the back end. He will be stabilizing and improve a already dominant offense. Marner,Willy,Papi and Tavares will be capitalizing from his threatening shot on the defense that we simply don’t have.

Pietrangelo would likely put up a career year with our offense. The cap strain doesn’t nullify the fact he improves the team significantly. Lots of moves to be made to do it nonetheless.

lol I can’t whole heartedly keep saying I don’t want him. I only don’t want the cap implications. He improves the team big time otherwise.

 

[Bluelines]

What it comes down to is philosophical difference of how we can spend our money. Do I think the Leafs could be a deeper, more versatile team that can roll 4 lines and have 3 balanced defensive pairings like a Vegas? And could that team be better in the playoffs? Sure I do.

But with the resources that we have, and the way the Big 4 make up a big chunk of the roster, I think we’re better off getting the highest caliber player to bump everyone down than waste time on Brodie and Tanev. How much better is Brodie going to be than Barrie. How much better is Tanev going to be than Ceci? Maybe a little, maybe a lot. But Pietrangelo is blue chip and you know what you’re getting.

In terms of losing depth up front to pay for all of this, Kerfoot and Kapanen were useless, and Johnsson was hurt for most of the play in but based on his regular season he was useless too. And we frankly don’t have the cap to get 2-3 guys who can score a bunch on the third line. So why pay the premium to renovate a third scoring line when we can build an affordable bottom 6 checking and energy group that actually fulfills roles?

At the end of the day, if you think having too many great players at heavy contracts is a massive problem we can still trade them for a couple of more acceptably mediocre players on cheaper contracts.

If you agree that we need to be better balanced, then why debate the point with me? It is precisely what I've been saying all along.

 

[ULF_55]

No, but if you remember they both totalled up to the same cap hit Boston paid for Chara that same summer. And I think it illustrates the difference between what quality and quantity can do for a franchise.

let us hope we feel the same about Tavares in a decade.

 

[Stephen]

If you agree that we need to be better balanced, then why debate the point with me? It is precisely what I've been saying all along.

Because the Leafs aren’t built as a balanced team. So go and get the best quality you can get and back fill with cheap quantity for one year .

Tanev and Brodie are just this years version of Barrie and Ceci. But Pietrangelo changes the core, solves our most glaring weakness and sets you up for Phase II next year when you can trade out a Nylander or Marner and fill out the depth you so desperately want.

 

[NoGoalCaufield]

I’m not even going to dispute the signing of Pietrangelo any longer. St Louis refusing signing bonuses is their own fault. Ifthey refuse and we sign him with them as we could,I’ll just accept his big right shot and 15 goals from the back end. He will be stabilizing and improve a already dominant offense. Marner,Willy,Papi and Tavares will be capitalizing from his threatening shot on the defense that we simply don’t have.

Pietrangelo would likely put up a career year with our offense. The cap strain doesn’t nullify the fact he improves the team significantly. Lots of moves to be made to do it nonetheless.

lol I can’t whole heartedly keep saying I don’t want him. I only don’t want the cap implications. He improves the team big time otherwise.

Have to agree with this 100%.

 

[BrannigansLaw]

As good as Pietroangelo is, I hope he doesn’t sign with us (assuming he’s getting the contract most think he will).

I have no faith in this core to get it done even with him on our top pairing. Our problems go beyond one piece. It’s up and down the lineup and reflective of a mentally that they still need to outgrow. Pietroangelo isn’t going to fix that; no one guy in general is going to fix it. I’d honestly like to start patiently retooling around what we have and build depth and get the kind of support players we need via draft/trade and low key FA signings

 

[ToneDog]

As good as Pietroangelo is, I hope he doesn’t sign with us (assuming he’s getting the contract most think he will).

I have no faith in this core to get it done even with him on our top pairing. Our problems go beyond one piece. It’s up and down the lineup and reflective of a mentally that they still need to outgrow. Pietroangelo isn’t going to fix that; no one guy in general is going to fix it. I’d honestly like to start patiently retooling around what we have and build depth and get the kind of support players we need via draft/trade and low key FA signings

Some think Leafs can win the cup with Petro. If Leafs do sign him it will tell us that they agree.

 

[BrannigansLaw]

Some think Leafs can win the cup with Petro. If Leafs do sign him it will tell us that they agree.

They might be right too but I doubt it significantly.

 

[Wafflewhipper]

Dubas might want to extend Rielly right away to. Two yeats playing with Pietrangelo is going to likely make him shine. Its not to early under the circumstances and the cap will be going up by then.

 

[seanlinden]

Dubas is caught between a rock and hard place between his own public stance on proving he can win with 1/2 your cap invested on 4F, and also desperately needing a major upgrade on D to save his own job so adding AP addresses a vital need on defense.

The plan to add Pietrangelo on this board seems to be trade Kapanen $3.2 mil (done), Kerfoot $3.5 mil , Johnsson $3.4 mil for futures and use those 3 combined forwards cap recapture to afford to sign AP. We don't yet know if this our GM's strategy as well, but we do know he has shopped/listened to offers on AJ and Kerfoot, because Dubas went public saying he was getting good offers for them and they have value.

We haven't seen any appetite to trade Marner/Nylander and "We can and we will" is almost a defiance position to suggest that is not on the table as a viable option to fit AP.

Bolded for truth...He signed these big deals -- and trading any one of them would be admitting a wrongdoing.

Ultimately, if the Leafs are going to sign Pietrangelo, I do believe you are correct. It will be AJ and Kerfoot that are on the way out -- maybe Andersen to get a guy that makes $1m less.

They'll backfill the roster with talent near league minimum, and this year, and to Kyle Dubas' credit, this year, it actually may be a viable strategy. Teams are going to be hesitant to give guys contracts for this year until we have a start date and projection of how many fans will be in the stands -- especially guys in that 28-32 year old age. They may be able to approach a guy who was hoping for $2.5m before the pandemic, now hoping for $1.5m, to take a $200k signing bonus and sign for $1m. I'm sure that is part of the thought consideration with Evan Rodrigues.

The question / challenge is what happens beyond this year. Presumably we will be in an economic recovery next offseason, so the mid-level salaries will rise; but the cap will not. The same condition may be true the year after, and then you have Morgan Rielly up for a new deal.

Obviously, if they move Johnsson & Kerfoot in pure futures deals, they will have stocked themselves up pretty well in terms of talent coming in... which should help beyond this season... but relying entirely on ELCs doesn't seem like the best idea, certainly not when you consider that your real need is for role players -- not some young kid with a bunch of talent to provide some secondary/tertiary scoring.

Ultimately, signing AP will likely force the trade / release of one of Marner, Nylander, or Rielly in the next 2 years. I think you objectively have to ask yourself -- if that's the case, is it really the best idea?

Yes, he's free, but would they not be better served backing up some metaphorical brinks truck to the Carolina Hurricanes and getting Brett Pesce locked up for 4 years at $4m?

 

[Gabriel426]

Bolded for truth...He signed these big deals -- and trading any one of them would be admitting a wrongdoing.

Ultimately, if the Leafs are going to sign Pietrangelo, I do believe you are correct. It will be AJ and Kerfoot that are on the way out -- maybe Andersen to get a guy that makes $1m less.

They'll backfill the roster with talent near league minimum, and this year, and to Kyle Dubas' credit, this year, it actually may be a viable strategy. Teams are going to be hesitant to give guys contracts for this year until we have a start date and projection of how many fans will be in the stands -- especially guys in that 28-32 year old age. They may be able to approach a guy who was hoping for $2.5m before the pandemic, now hoping for $1.5m, to take a $200k signing bonus and sign for $1m. I'm sure that is part of the thought consideration with Evan Rodrigues.

The question / challenge is what happens beyond this year. Presumably we will be in an economic recovery next offseason, so the mid-level salaries will rise; but the cap will not. The same condition may be true the year after, and then you have Morgan Rielly up for a new deal.

Obviously, if they move Johnsson & Kerfoot in pure futures deals, they will have stocked themselves up pretty well in terms of talent coming in... which should help beyond this season... but relying entirely on ELCs doesn't seem like the best idea, certainly not when you consider that your real need is for role players -- not some young kid with a bunch of talent to provide some secondary/tertiary scoring.

Ultimately, signing AP will likely force the trade / release of one of Marner, Nylander, or Rielly in the next 2 years. I think you objectively have to ask yourself -- if that's the case, is it really the best idea?

Yes, he's free, but would they not be better served backing up some metaphorical brinks truck to the Carolina Hurricanes and getting Brett Pesce locked up for 4 years at $4m?

Why is it that trading Willie, Marner or AM as admitting it is wrong? Dubas’s job is to built a team to win the Cup. If Dubas trades Marner for Seth Jones, how is that wrong? If Willie is traded to NJ for Severson and Hughes, how is that wrong? If McDavid comes at the cost of AM, hows that wrong?
If the return package makes sense and could help the team, that’s the right move. Now would he be afraid to make such move is another question.

 

[seanlinden]

Why is it that trading Willie, Marner or AM as admitting it is wrong? Dubas’s job is to built a team to win the Cup. If Dubas trades Marner for Seth Jones, how is that wrong? If Willie is traded to NJ for Severson and Hughes, how is that wrong? If McDavid comes at the cost of AM, hows that wrong?
If the return package makes sense and could help the team, that’s the right move. Now would he be afraid to make such move is another question.

Obviously none of those are realistic deals... A realistic deal is likely going to be a downgrade with the clear intent of saving cap space.

 

[Dekes For Days]

A realistic deal is likely going to be a downgrade with the clear intent of saving cap space.

That's not realistic because it would be a horrible move for a GM to do.

 

[SeaOfBlue]

Obviously none of those are realistic deals... A realistic deal is likely going to be a downgrade with the clear intent of saving cap space.

That is only realistic on HFBoards.

Dubas is not going to move a core player to open up cap space. Not without also getting the requisite return on top of it. Otherwise, he never would have signed Marner in the first place... Or would have forced him to take a bridge deal for less money.

 

[seanlinden]

That is only realistic on HFBoards.

Dubas is not going to move a core player to open up cap space. Not without also getting the requisite return on top of it. Otherwise, he never would have signed Marner in the first place... Or would have forced him to take a bridge deal for less money.

He's going to have to sometime in the next 2 years if he signs Pietrangelo (unless he gains some unforseen negotiating skills and gets him on an absolute sweetheart deal)

 

[Gabriel426]

Obviously none of those are realistic deals... A realistic deal is likely going to be a downgrade with the clear intent of saving cap space.

That’s your opinion.
I don’t think Dubas need to trade any of the big 4 as cap dump. If anyone of them is traded, it will be a hockey trade.

 

[Stephen]

Even if you take exception with the way the Leafs are constructed, which is not a cohesive hockey team, one thing they have going forward that they’ve never had to this extent is elite talent and that gives me hope.

Adding one more Pietrangelo for nothing but cash seems like a threatening concept to some but it checks off all of our needs and can set up the next sequence of moves which could yield a perfect, championship roster.

Add Pietrangelo, the blueline is set. Don’t like having a heavy concentration of expensive forwards? Move one at your leisure for whatever you want and there’s your Johansen for Jones trade, loop closed. What’s the debate?

 

[seanlinden]

That’s your opinion.
I don’t think Dubas need to trade any of the big 4 as cap dump. If anyone of them is traded, it will be a hockey trade.

As I mentioned... short of getting an absolute sweetheart deal...If they sign AP, that'll be the reality within 2 years. Tavares and AP are going to have immovable deals.... And one of Matthews/Marner/Tavares/Pietrangelo/Nylander/Rielly is going to have to go.

 

[Stephen]

As I mentioned... short of getting an absolute sweetheart deal...If they sign AP, that'll be the reality within 2 years. Tavares and AP are going to have immovable deals.... And one of Matthews/Marner/Tavares/Pietrangelo/Nylander/Rielly is going to have to go.

Who cares if someone from the current core has to go, roster turnover is a fact of life and championship construction.

 

[Havoc]

As good as Pietroangelo is, I hope he doesn’t sign with us (assuming he’s getting the contract most think he will).

I have no faith in this core to get it done even with him on our top pairing. Our problems go beyond one piece. It’s up and down the lineup and reflective of a mentally that they still need to outgrow. Pietroangelo isn’t going to fix that; no one guy in general is going to fix it. I’d honestly like to start patiently retooling around what we have and build depth and get the kind of support players we need via draft/trade and low key FA signings

Leafs have took two hot teams to game 7(5) three years in a row. You're speaking as if they got swept or got beat 4-1 every year.


I understand "Leafs gonna Leaf" but your post is so far off.

Literally the only thing holding the Leafs back is an elite no.1 pairing. AP gives us one of the best top 3 in the entire league. Our forwards will have a positive goal differential as well, guaranteed.


This team is the real deal if they sign AP. Cheer up lol

 

[seanlinden]

Who cares if someone from the current core has to go, roster turnover is a fact of life and championship construction.

Of course -- my main concern is the concept of signing a 30 year old defenceman, knowing that it is very will result in a situation where you'll be forced to one of one of your 23-24 year old wingers in a deal to reduce cap hit (or letting your 26 year old #1 defenceman walk as a UFA); rather than having the flexibility of making a 1-for-1 type deal as you discover how your needs evolve.

 

[seanlinden]

As good as Pietroangelo is, I hope he doesn’t sign with us (assuming he’s getting the contract most think he will).

I have no faith in this core to get it done even with him on our top pairing. Our problems go beyond one piece. It’s up and down the lineup and reflective of a mentally that they still need to outgrow. Pietroangelo isn’t going to fix that; no one guy in general is going to fix it. I’d honestly like to start patiently retooling around what we have and build depth and get the kind of support players we need via draft/trade and low key FA signings

You do have a pretty good point, to be perfectly honest.

You look at the two teams remaining in the playoffs -- there are no "superstars". There are basically no players that are allowed to get by solely on skill. Everyone -- including Benn, Seguin, Radulov, Point, Kucherov are playing "tough hockey". Tampa has made it this far, essentially without Steven Stamkos.

In Toronto -- we almost have a cultural divide -- there is Matthews, Marner, Nylander and to a lesser extent Tavares, who don't necessarily have to "get dirty"... and then you've got everybody else. To be realistic, it can be hard to motivate the young guy making $3m to play with grit, when the guy making $11m doesn't lead by example.

With Toronto's ridiculous skill advantage, and plenty of depth of it, they should have dispatched Columbus fairly easily. The problem was -- Columbus played relentless, the Leafs stars did not. Even in the previous years against Boston, especially with Kadri out, the B's brought their intensity level much higher than the Leafs. Bergyeron & Marchand lead that team by example. Pastrnak follows, and then all of the lower skill guys do even more, because they see the premier players doing it.

 

[Gabriel426]

As I mentioned... short of getting an absolute sweetheart deal...If they sign AP, that'll be the reality within 2 years. Tavares and AP are going to have immovable deals.... And one of Matthews/Marner/Tavares/Pietrangelo/Nylander/Rielly is going to have to go.

Phil’s 1.2mil will come off at the same time as Reilly’s contract. There are other ways to get cap. Plus, unless the players don’t play to their contracts, it won’t be cap dump.
Lastly, not saying it will happen but if t he Leafs end up winning the Cup after signing Pietra, I could careless if they can’t resign Reilly, or whoever.

 

[seanlinden]

Phil’s 1.2mil will come off at the same time as Reilly’s contract. There are other ways to get cap. Plus, unless the players don’t play to their contracts, it won’t be cap dump.
Lastly, not saying it will happen but if t he Leafs end up winning the Cup after signing Pietra, I could careless if they can’t resign Reilly, or whoever.

I feel like the bolded should be Kyle Dubas catch phrase... you cannot rely on that many sub $1m players and expect to be successfu -- especially once teams financial situation returns to some sense of normalcy.

That being said, I didn't call them a "Cap Dump" -- to be honest, I don't like that term because it's either too vague, or too often mis-used... Marc Staal was a cap dump... neither Mitch Marner or William Nylander are likely to hit that point on their current deals.

What I did say -- was that you'd be in a situation where you're trading one of them with the purpose of reducing salary -- and doing so limits a lot of flexibility.

In terms of winning the Cup, yes, all would be forgiven and to hell with the future if that happens. However, I don't believe this team is ready to win the cup this year. They've never won a playoff series. They don't know what it's like to dig down deep and play with desparation like a Tampa Bay who has suffered years of going deep only to bow out.

The Leafs need to fix their D, but they need to do it without shortening the 4 year window that they presently have remaining. Signing AP has a very realistic chance of doing that, depending on the AAV. If Dubas can bring him mentally in line with a guy like Ryan McDonagh (obviously a bit more AAV in line with the fact that AP is a year younger and probably a little better), then I think its a safe enough move. If you're going to go $9m x 7 years, let Vegas have him -- focus on getting one of the $4m defencemen out there.

 

[Mess]

Holl is the weak link in the top 4 and needs to be moved to the bottom pair.

Leafs addressed and fixed that problem last year when they traded for RHD Tyson Barrie and Cody Ceci designed to push Holl onto the 3rd pairing.