Dreger: Will Duchene move if the Sens go full rebuild?

[AveryStar4Eva]

I think if the pick ends up at 6 or later the Sens will give it up to Colorado and go full rebuild.

Everyone 25+ with value gone for futures, Gaborik on LTIR, take on contract dumps for picks and prospects.

 

[72hockey guy]

No. It's surprising how many people aren't getting this.

The Senators 2018 pick will belong to Ottawa IF it's in the top 10 unless they choose to give it to Colorado. If the pick is later than 10, it automatically belongs to the Avs.

They don't get to trade down and give a different pick that previously belonged to another team to the Avs...that's not part of what they traded.

If they choose to keep the Top-10 2018 pick, then the 2019 pick is automatically transferred to Colorado.

once again bender It depends on the wording. I dont know if its true in round one, but I know for a FACT THAT TEAMS HAVE BEEN ALLOWED TO TRADE FOR A PICK IN A PARTICULAR ROUND TO TO FULFILL A CONDITIONAL PICK REQUIREMENT

one time im sure of it involved denis grebeshkov in 2007 it was very convoluted because edmonton traded the same pick twice because it was a conditional pick and it ended up the league literally had to review the team submitted paperwork

I remember because the Islanders were involved i cant recall the exact details it was 10 years ago

 

[Oddbob]

Honestly, if I am an Ottawa Senator player, with aspirations of a Stanley Cup, I want out, immediately. Melnyk has made it clear, "Ottawa will never win a Cup with Me as Owner!" He refuses to pay, to keep good players, so who cares if they draft some really good players, because as soon as it is time to get paid real dollars, Eugene says Adios!

 

[BobbyClarkeFan16]

Didn't Duchene also get traded to Ottawa because it's close to home in Haliburton? Yeah, he's going nowhere.....

 

[Adele Dazeem]

Ottawa needs a top-2 pick in this draft to give them hope for next season.
Adding a top-6 winger (Svech) or a top-4 D (Dahlin) will instantly make this team better and get the depth where its supposed to be.

 

[Belieber]

Man if the Sens trade Duchene and Karlsson imagine all those picks and prospects. Sens would instantly become HF darlings.

 

[DudeWhereIsMakar]

Don't know where Duchene would sign if he wants to play for a contender. He'd have to cheap out if he wants to go to a REAL contender. But if he wants money, stay in Ottawa, make them give him the years and the dollars.

The only solution is if Toronto signs him to an eight-year contract in which he gets paid $14M for one season, then makes around $5M for the remaining sevenish years.

 

[hockeyviking]

once again bender It depends on the wording. I dont know if its true in round one, but I know for a FACT THAT TEAMS HAVE BEEN ALLOWED TO TRADE FOR A PICK IN A PARTICULAR ROUND TO TO FULFILL A CONDITIONAL PICK REQUIREMENT

. So you are comparing a conditional pick whit a decided pick.......

 

[hockeyviking]

Don't know where Duchene would sign if he wants to play for a contender. He'd have to cheap out if he wants to go to a REAL contender. But if he wants money, stay in Ottawa, make them give him the years and the dollars.

The only solution is if Toronto signs him to an eight-year contract in which he gets paid $14M for one season, then makes around $5M for the remaining sevenish years.

Ottawa = money ?? What have We missed ?

 

[DudeWhereIsMakar]

Ottawa = money ?? What have We missed ?

The part where the thread said he wants to play for a contender...
Or the rumours of Karlsson leaving the Sens.

 

[bert]

Rebuilding without your first round pick. The stupidest move in the history of hockey?

 

[bert]

I thought I saw a mention that Ottawa can surrender the Pittsburgh 1st to Colorado to satisfy the trade condition.

Not sure if that's valid, but that really changes things if it is.

Why would colorado agree to that after the fact lol. Listen im a sens fan on the brink but there is no way this is happening.

 

[CrypTic]

once again bender It depends on the wording. I dont know if its true in round one, but I know for a FACT THAT TEAMS HAVE BEEN ALLOWED TO TRADE FOR A PICK IN A PARTICULAR ROUND TO TO FULFILL A CONDITIONAL PICK REQUIREMENT

one time im sure of it involved denis grebeshkov in 2007 it was very convoluted because edmonton traded the same pick twice because it was a conditional pick and it ended up the league literally had to review the team submitted paperwork

I remember because the Islanders were involved i cant recall the exact details it was 10 years ago

Per wikipedia,

The Edmonton Oilers' third-round pick went to the New York Islanders as the result of a trade on February 19, 2008 that sent Marc-Andre Bergeron to Anaheim in exchange for this pick.
Anaheim previously acquired this pick as compensation for not matching an offer sheet from Edmonton to restricted free agent Dustin Penner on August 2, 2007.[3]

Edmonton previously re-acquired this pick as the result of a trade on July 5, 2007 that sent Anaheim's second-round pick in 2008 to the New York Islanders in exchange for Allan Rourke and this pick.

New York previously acquired this pick as the result of a trade on February 18, 2007 that sent Denis Grebeshkov to Edmonton in exchange for Marc-Andre Bergeron and this pick.

2008 NHL Entry Draft - Wikipedia
So NYI got the pick from Edmonton (for Bergeron) in February 2007, then traded it back to Edmonton (for Rourke) in July 2007. Edmonton then used it to offer sheet Penner (on the Ducks) in August. Then the Ducks traded this pic to the NYI for Bergeron in 2008.

You can trade another team for your own pick. You often have to if you're going to offer sheet someone, as Edmonton did with Anaheim in this series of transactions, bc you have to use your own picks in offer sheets. But you can't use someone else's pick to fulfill a trade for your pick. The round has nothing to do with that. If you trade your pick, you have to give the other team your pick, not another team's pick. I doubt that any team would ever agree to a trade like that: i.e., Player A for a 1st round pick from any team, which is what would have to happen for Ottawa to use another team's pick in the Duchene trade.

I'm not sure if the NHL would allow it (they should IMO) but it would make no sense from any GM's point of view. Why would you let the worst team in the NHL use the best team's pick to fulfill a trade? If that was allowed, most bottom of the NHL teams who had traded a first or second rounder in future years would routinely trade them to top teams before having to fulfill a prior trade bc, e.g., if Ottawa could use Pittsburgh's first rounder to pay Colorado for the Duchene trade, it could get a pretty decent asset from Pittsburgh by trading firsts then giving Pittsburgh's first to Colorado. Same if it was a second rounder. You'd just wait until the end of the season that you had to give up the pick, then make the trade to a team that finished better than you did, preferably a lot better. You'd see that happening all the time.

 

[FameFlame069]

ifit would make sense if the trade was a first at Ottawa's option.

ive seen that several times where a team has acquired a pick in a certain round to fulfill a prior trade requirement. the first round may be different however since it is the first round

Not in this case, if Ottawa would of did "a 1st Round pick in 2018 or 2019" of their choice, instead of "Ott's 2018 1st(top 10 protected) that can be retained and they'd give up THEIR 2019 1st" it's the protection that won't allow it, if the pick was considered just a 1st round pick in one of the following twp drafts, and they had 3 1sts this season (#3,#17,#31) they could give up any pick of choice, do you understand my description?

 

[PlayMakers]

They would be smart to trade him at some point over the next 12 months.

There is no chance he stays beyond this contract.

 

[Gil Gunderson]

At this point dont even resign Stone and bottom out after next season.... Trade him for some big rebuilding pieces

Bottom out for what reason? We won’t have a first.

 

[AslanRH]

Not in this case, if Ottawa would of did "a 1st Round pick in 2018 or 2019" of their choice, instead of "Ott's 2018 1st(top 10 protected) that can be retained and they'd give up THEIR 2019 1st" it's the protection that won't allow it, if the pick was considered just a 1st round pick in one of the following twp drafts, and they had 3 1sts this season (#3,#17,#31) they could give up any pick of choice, do you understand my description?

If you watch clips or read through the official trade postings from the NHL, even conditional picks are defined by which team it originally belonged to.

The only exceptions I can think of are when a team owns multiple picks in a round at the time of a trade, and the conditions are team A gets the higher of the multiple picks.

an example from the Patrick Eaves trade:
"*Conditions- Based on final draft position, Dallas will acquire the middle pick of the 3 picks Toronto had acquired, one of which was sent to Anaheim in a previous trade. The selection will be one from the 2017 draft (Ottawa 2nd round pick, San Jose 2nd round pick and Toronto 2nd round pick).
If Eaves plays in 50% of the games in first two rounds and Anaheim advances to the third round, the selection becomes Anaheim's 2017 1st round pick."​

Even then the options of the conditional pick were limited to the 3 picks Toronto originally had at the time of the trade.

 

[JoemAvs]

Not in this case, if Ottawa would of did "a 1st Round pick in 2018 or 2019" of their choice, instead of "Ott's 2018 1st(top 10 protected) that can be retained and they'd give up THEIR 2019 1st" it's the protection that won't allow it, if the pick was considered just a 1st round pick in one of the following twp drafts, and they had 3 1sts this season (#3,#17,#31) they could give up any pick of choice, do you understand my description?

Ottawa traded a specific pick. Their goddamn 1st rounder in 2018 went to Colorado. That pick is a distinct pick that will be solely decided by Ottawas record and the ensuing draft lottery. Colorado owns that pick. It does not matter how many other 1st rounders Ottawa has. The only way certain posters would be correct is if for example the Islanders (who have two 1st round picks) would have traded one of them with the condition attached that they get to decide which of their two 1st rounders they surrender. Even then I highly doubt that there would be any GM that would agree to a stipulation that just says "a certan unspecific pick". It would have to be one of the two they were holding at the time of the trade. The moment you trade that 1st rounder you lose any type of power over it. Period. The only way to retain some level of control is via protecting it like Ottawa did.

Now no one knows exactly what is written in the deal but from all reports Ottawa has the right to get back that one specific pick they traded in 2018 if it falls into the top10 if they want to retain it. As a consequence of that, their 2019 1st falls automatically to the Avs. They certainly won't have the right to just swap that pick with a completely different one they acquired from the Stanley Cup contender. That makes 0 sense.

I am as surprised as the next one that Dorion is willing to blow it up when he probably does not have his 2019 1st round pick. But no one has reported any further conditions on that pick (say top10 protected for longer than one year like most of the picks in the NBA are these days or something like that).


One thing I would be interested in right now is what would happen if Dorion would try to trade his 2019 1st that he technically owns for now at the deadline. I wonder what the league would do about that. Automatically award the 2018 1st to the Avs because of that or block the trade of the 2019 1st. I wonder which one it would be...

 

[OCPenguin]

With the way the guy barked to get out of Colorado and how much Ottawa paid in futures to get him, I don't think Ottawa will move him now, unless someone gives them essentially the same package back in return. I don't see that happening anytime soon.

 

[Hunter368]

Not sure why you would want to stick around that team with how the owner is....I would leave the second I could. fans deserve better then that owner

 

[paragon]

Imagine trading away your first round pick and then going on rebuild mode. Just Melnyk things.

 

[FameFlame069]

If you watch clips or read through the official trade postings from the NHL, even conditional picks are defined by which team it originally belonged to.

The only exceptions I can think of are when a team owns multiple picks in a round at the time of a trade, and the conditions are team A gets the higher of the multiple picks.

an example from the Patrick Eaves trade:
"*Conditions- Based on final draft position, Dallas will acquire the middle pick of the 3 picks Toronto had acquired, one of which was sent to Anaheim in a previous trade. The selection will be one from the 2017 draft (Ottawa 2nd round pick, San Jose 2nd round pick and Toronto 2nd round pick).
If Eaves plays in 50% of the games in first two rounds and Anaheim advances to the third round, the selection becomes Anaheim's 2017 1st round pick."​

Even then the options of the conditional pick were limited to the 3 picks Toronto originally had at the time of the trade.

That's what im saying, but since they only had their pick in 2018 and put the condition on it being next years 1st if they choose to keep the #10 or better pick this year, and the other part was badly worded, I should of said if they had 3 1sts they could say they'll give up one of them (depending on whatever condition we use an example)

 

[FameFlame069]

Ottawa traded a specific pick. Their goddamn 1st rounder in 2018 went to Colorado. That pick is a distinct pick that will be solely decided by Ottawas record and the ensuing draft lottery. Colorado owns that pick. It does not matter how many other 1st rounders Ottawa has. The only way certain posters would be correct is if for example the Islanders (who have two 1st round picks) would have traded one of them with the condition attached that they get to decide which of their two 1st rounders they surrender. Even then I highly doubt that there would be any GM that would agree to a stipulation that just says "a certan unspecific pick". It would have to be one of the two they were holding at the time of the trade. The moment you trade that 1st rounder you lose any type of power over it. Period. The only way to retain some level of control is via protecting it like Ottawa did.

Now no one knows exactly what is written in the deal but from all reports Ottawa has the right to get back that one specific pick they traded in 2018 if it falls into the top10 if they want to retain it. As a consequence of that, their 2019 1st falls automatically to the Avs. They certainly won't have the right to just swap that pick with a completely different one they acquired from the Stanley Cup contender. That makes 0 sense.

I am as surprised as the next one that Dorion is willing to blow it up when he probably does not have his 2019 1st round pick. But no one has reported any further conditions on that pick (say top10 protected for longer than one year like most of the picks in the NBA are these days or something like that).


One thing I would be interested in right now is what would happen if Dorion would try to trade his 2019 1st that he technically owns for now at the deadline. I wonder what the league would do about that. Automatically award the 2018 1st to the Avs because of that or block the trade of the 2019 1st. I wonder which one it would be...

You literally just explained what i said but in more words, but I was also trying to help him out with saying it a different way "we'll give you a 1st round pick in either 2018 or 2019" without saying a specific team's pick, if they have 2 in this draft they could of given up either one of them or next years, but the way they traded the pick Ott said their 1st this year is top 10 protected and they can choose to keep it or sacrifice it for a coin toss next year, sorry I've been working a graveyard shift and never slept all day before work, so my wording is a bit off.

 

[tucker3434]

I’d say that’d be career suicide, but didn’t Dorian just sign an extension? But what a bad look it’d be if he traded away Duchene now and didn’t get at least what he paid for him.

And what’s with all the talk about the Sens first? It’s a protected pick just like any other. They can’t sub it out for someone else’s pick. If they want it back, they’ve got to deal with Colorado.

Didn't Duchene also get traded to Ottawa because it's close to home in Haliburton? Yeah, he's going nowhere.....

Not like he had/has a NMC. He was traded to the Sens because that particular deal was the best one on the table. I doubt he had any say in it.

 

[CrosbyMalkin]

1st 2019 + sprong + Sheahan +Huwick for Duchene at 30% retention....GET IT DONE JR!!!

Crosby/Malkin/Duchene/Brassard...

Get'r done jimbo!

That would probably be a decent package. Sprong I believe is 1st round pick value and Sheahan has been a very good 3rd line Center for us after his first 10 game adjustment period to the new system. I don’t think they would get much better than that honestly the way Duchene has been his last couple years and only one year left on his deal. Does he really have much more value than Brassard? That is a better package than what we gave for Brassard and I consider them pretty equal players but with different styles of play. Both contracts end at the same time.

It’s not going to happen because we are stacked but that is a fair offer. It was meant as a joke I bet but they would not get anything better.