njdevils1982
Hell Toupée!!!
I would respond with 2 things:
1) It takes more than one season to make a HoF career.
2) We can't really induct players based on "could have" and "would have"'s
lindros
I would respond with 2 things:
1) It takes more than one season to make a HoF career.
2) We can't really induct players based on "could have" and "would have"'s
That's a different argument all together, but he hit highs in limited (relatively) games that very few in the history of hockey ever hit, Turgeon couldn't hold a candle to that level at his best.lindros
lindros
Rk | Player | PTS | Tm | Pos | From | To | Active | GP | G | A | +/- |
1 | Jaromir Jagr | 642 | PIT | RW | 1993 | 1999 | 6 | 431 | 252 | 390 | 125 |
2 | Wayne Gretzky* | 529 | TOT | C | 1993 | 1999 | 6 | 443 | 129 | 400 | -80 |
3 | Eric Lindros* | 525 | PHI | C | 1993 | 1999 | 6 | 370 | 222 | 303 | 149 |
4 | Teemu Selanne* | 512 | TOT | RW | 1993 | 1999 | 6 | 401 | 237 | 275 | 41 |
5 | Joe Sakic* | 507 | TOT | C | 1993 | 1999 | 6 | 415 | 188 | 319 | 26 |
6 | Ron Francis* | 500 | TOT | C | 1993 | 1999 | 6 | 447 | 138 | 362 | 69 |
7 | Theoren Fleury | 477 | TOT | RW | 1993 | 1999 | 6 | 448 | 211 | 266 | 67 |
8 | Adam Oates* | 469 | TOT | C | 1993 | 1999 | 6 | 416 | 121 | 348 | 15 |
9 | John LeClair | 468 | TOT | LW | 1993 | 1999 | 6 | 442 | 240 | 228 | 168 |
10 | Mats Sundin* | 466 | TOT | C/RW | 1993 | 1999 | 6 | 453 | 193 | 273 | 29 |
11 | Pierre Turgeon | 455 | TOT | C | 1993 | 1999 | 6 | 403 | 179 | 276 | 58 |
12 | Keith Tkachuk | 450 | TOT | LW | 1993 | 1999 | 6 | 426 | 241 | 209 | 25 |
13 | Steve Yzerman* | 443 | DET | LW/C | 1993 | 1999 | 6 | 421 | 147 | 296 | 79 |
That's not overly impressive. He's only 9th in scoring over the span of his career. For PPG he's all the way down at 20th.
Majority of his scoring was done from 88-96, and especially high scoring era. However in that era he does not fare any better against his competition.
There are too many guys from that era that were simply good at putting up points, without adding much else to their argument; like defensive play, physicality, playoff success, individual awards, longevity, ect.In '98 he finished tied for 4th in PPG, and in '00 he tied for 3rd
I think most would consider his prime from '89 - '01
Can't say I don't admire your passion on the topic. However I was not aware he was a part of that World Juniors game until today.Absolute ROB JOB. As with most things in life, irrelevant stuff bleeds into things for no reason. Oh... was this guy not extroverted or didn't fight in a game we thought he should have? Well, time to act like players far inferior than he is should be in the hall of fame, as we enshrine player after player who is worse than Turgeon.
Acting like a big shot is more important than being one. Perception is everything, even when it comes to "experts in the field." It's pathetic. Until Turgeon is in the HOF, the HOF may as well be run by TMZ.
There are too many guys from that era that were simply good at putting up points, without adding much else to their argument; like defensive play, physicality, playoff success, individual awards, longevity, ect.
The line needs to be drawn somewhere. In my opinion, it should be drawn above guys like Turgeon, Roenick, Damphousse, Fleury, Tkachuk, Larmer, ect.
Top-30 point finishes??? That's your standard?
Except those guys all have noticeably superior numbers too. Save for maybe Sundin but that's where Turgeon never playing for team Canada beyond juniors also stands out vs several of these other guys who build better Hockey career hofs.The problem with lumping Turgeon in with the players you listed is that he has noticeably superior numbers
Statistically speaking, Turgeon is on the same level as players like Denis Savard, Dale Hawerchuk, Mats Sundin, Gilbert Perrault, etc.
Except those guys all have noticeably superior numbers too. Save for maybe Sundin but that's where Turgeon never playing for team Canada beyond juniors also stands out vs several of these other guys who build better Hockey career hofs.
Top-30 point finishes??? That's your standard?
Honest question: how much do you think not fighting against Russia in the WJrs had to do with Turgeon never playing for Team Canada again? Obivously Team Canada had some other pretty good C's during Turgeon's prime, but was he really never one of their top 12 options?Except those guys all have noticeably superior numbers too. Save for maybe Sundin but that's where Turgeon never playing for team Canada beyond juniors also stands out vs several of these other guys who build better Hockey career hofs.
Doesn't mean they deserved to get in. Both those guys basically got in for political reasons. Modano for being all-timer American point leader, and Sundin for being a Toronto fan favourite. If Modano was Slovakian and Sundin played for Anaheim, would be different.
The only things distinguishing Sundin from Turgeon are playing for Toronto and international play. Sundin was actually less consistent than Turgeon. International play is a real point though.
I'd wager that this had a major impact on his selection (or lack thereof) for Team Canada. I heard an interview with Theo Fleury a few years ago where he talked about that night, and he talked about how bad he felt for Turgeon. He was not a fighter in the first place, but add in that he barely spoke English and was a bit of an outcast on the team, as he could only communicate with a couple of other guys. That brawl was a bad situation, and he was a kid expected to jump into that situation?Honest question: how much do you think not fighting against Russia in the WJrs had to do with Turgeon never playing for Team Canada again? Obivously Team Canada had some other pretty good C's during Turgeon's prime, but was he really never one of their top 12 options?
Guess I'm just curious to what extent (if any) politics and/or reputation played a role in limiting Turgeon's international career...
They just put him in so his family wouldn't sue over CTE.lindros
When you adjust for era, Turgeon actually has better numbers than Savard, Perreault and Hawerchuk
Their respective adjusted stats:
Turgeon; 1315 points in 1294 games
Savard; 1123 points in 1196 games
Perreault; 1134 points in 1191 games
Hawerchuk; 1189 in 1188 games
Sundin; 1410 in 1346 games
For comparison sake:
Damphousse; 1193 points in 1378 games
Roenick; 1228 points in 1363 games
Good lord just stop already. How about you provide some context to the players ACTUAL point totals. A player's compiled stats are only part of the argument as to why they should be in the Hall of Fame. Adjusted stats are also a highly suspect and weak argument for a player...very few view them with much credibility.
A superior way in which to look at a player's stats is to see how they compare to their peers and what else they brought to the table (ie. leadership and defensive abilites).
Sundin
Top 20 goal seasons
2,8,10,11,14,15,17,18,20
Top 20 assist seasons
10,14,15,18
Top 20 point seasons
4,7,11,11,12,14,17,20
Hawerchuk
Top 20 goal seasons
7,7,10,12,15,19
Top 20 assist seasons
4,4,5,6,9,13,13,14,19,10
Top 10 point seasons
3,4,7,7,9,11,11,11,12,16,17
Savard
Top 20 goal seasons
9,13,15
Top 20 assist seasons
2,3,3,6,7,12,18
Top 20 point seasons
3,3,6,7,7,12,16
Perreault
Top 20 goal seasons
6,7,7,9,11,18
Top 20 assist seasons
8,9,19,11,11,20
Top 20 point seasons
3,4,5,8,9,14,15,15,15
Turgeon
Top 20 goal seasons
6,12,14,19,20
Top 20 assist seasons
8,9,10,11,11,10
Top 20 point seasons
5,7,13,13,14,14,18
Turgeon's seasons are nothing to sneeze at but it's clear looking at the numbers that the other players' high end productivity was a clear step up from Turgeon and in many cases (Hawerchuk, Perreault, Sundin) the frequency of their best seasons were of a higher calibre.
In the cases of Hawerchuk, Perreault, and Sundin there are the significant contributions at the Olympics and Canada Cups to be taken into consideration...something that Turgeon failed to accomplish anything.
Overall, these players have produced numbers that Turgeon failed to reach. That is why they are in the Hall of Fame and Pierre is not. With that said, when the likes of compilers like Dave Andreychuk get in, there should be hope for Turgeon in the coming years...he is just not at the level of the above players, that much is pretty clear.