GreatGonzo
Surrounded by Snowflakes
There are obviously more reasons why Modano is a HOFer. And there are obvious reasons why he was inducted to begin with. That’s all my point was.
Why isn't Pierre Turgeon in the HHOF
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MadLuke
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Yes I took Hossa because it was an other boderline HOF case that felt in the same category, but the probably better defensively is selling him short, Hossa was selke attention level (received vote 15 seasons) defender and one of the best backchecker ever.
Career point feel a bit unfair to Hossa, he didn't play late 80s/early 90s season, Hossa 1257 adjusted point is 96% of Turgeon 1315 adjusted point, almost the same.
And we are not talking purely about who was better but in term of who should go to the hall of fame, Hossa is one of the greatest slovak player ever and has 28 olympics point and a bit of a national team hero (not at the level of Kopitar that is a lock because he is the greatest Slovanian) but still:
Olympics ‑ All-Time Points Leaders
Only Koivu/Selanne have more point in the Olympics history than Hossa for career nhler. Hossa not only have a great intl career but we are comparing to Turgeon that have virtually not one at all.
I always find these Hall of Fame arguments silly. All being in the Hall of Fame means is that some version of the HHOF selection committee thought that the player should be in the Hall of Fame. That's it.
MadLuke
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In contrast with non-silly online argument about pro-athele putting puck in nets ? All of this is all just big silly waste of time just for fun.
I guess what I mean is that people argue about the HHOF like there is some kind of meaningful criteria to a player's inclusion when all it probably takes is one or more members of the selection committee arguing convincingly that the player should be in.
MadLuke
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Yes that is implied when people try to predict the entry or non-entry they are trying to predict who would be those members and what they will be looking for.
That why the made the team Canada or not argument come up, people making those teams and the people sitting on those committee if they are not literally some of the same people will often think in similar ways. And why precedent entries are used so much.
And it is a different conversation than the should he or not be in the HHOF where people do not take that committee opinion in mind but their owns.
GreatGonzo
Surrounded by Snowflakes
I don’t think there is one single criteria for the Hall. Every player contributed and stood out on their own terms. Sure there are the “generational” types, then there are the higher level players that made significant impacts, then the types that are a tier below them, but still among the greatest. In the end there is no set standard......BUT, with that being said, their shouldn’t be a pity party for every player that many feel should be inducted just because a player, or players, have been “weak” candidates.
It’s safe to say that there really isn’t a lot of weak ones compared to the ones that
are rightfully there. There always seems to be a reason no matter what, whether it’s Housleys numbers as an American born Defenseman, or Andreychuks sexy looking goal totals.....they need slots to fill and they are willing to look past Housleys horrid defense and Andreychuks compiling.
Turgeon simply didn’t stand out during his playing days compared to his competition. I’m sure going from team to team, while some were mediocre. But even then, IMO, he wasn’t a top tier player.
It’s safe to say that there really isn’t a lot of weak ones compared to the ones that
are rightfully there. There always seems to be a reason no matter what, whether it’s Housleys numbers as an American born Defenseman, or Andreychuks sexy looking goal totals.....they need slots to fill and they are willing to look past Housleys horrid defense and Andreychuks compiling.
Turgeon simply didn’t stand out during his playing days compared to his competition. I’m sure going from team to team, while some were mediocre. But even then, IMO, he wasn’t a top tier player.
Turgeon wouldn't look out of place in the Hall but he doesn't look out of place not being in it.
Neutrinos
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He's 32nd all-time in scoring, and everyone in the top 42 is in the Hall, so he does look a little out of place sitting on the outside looking in
MadLuke
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He is the non active player with the most points not in the all (bot actual and adjusted):
| Goals | Point Shares | ||||||||||
| Rk | Player | PTS | Pos | From | To | GP | G | A | +/- | PPG | PTS |
| 1 | Pierre Turgeon | 1327 | C | 1987 | 2007 | 1294 | 515 | 812 | 139 | 1.03 | 1315 |
| 2 | Jeremy Roenick | 1216 | C/LW/RW | 1988 | 2009 | 1363 | 513 | 703 | 153 | 0.89 | 1228 |
| 3 | Bernie Nicholls | 1209 | C | 1981 | 1999 | 1127 | 475 | 734 | -39 | 1.07 | 1068 |
| 4 | Vincent Damphousse | 1205 | LW/C | 1986 | 2004 | 1378 | 432 | 773 | 7 | 0.87 | 1193 |
| 5 | Rod Brind'Amour | 1184 | LW/C | 1989 | 2010 | 1484 | 452 | 732 | -39 | 0.8 | 1210 |
| 6 | Daniel Alfredsson | 1157 | RW | 1995 | 2014 | 1246 | 444 | 713 | 155 | 0.93 | 1261 |
| 7 | Theoren Fleury | 1088 | C/RW/LW | 1988 | 2003 | 1084 | 455 | 633 | 145 | 1 | 1111 |
| 8 | Henrik Sedin | 1070 | LW/C | 2000 | 2018 | 1330 | 240 | 830 | 165 | 0.8 | 1181 |
| 9 | Dave Taylor | 1069 | RW | 1977 | 1994 | 1111 | 431 | 638 | 186 | 0.96 | 873 |
| 10 | Keith Tkachuk | 1065 | C/LW | 1991 | 2010 | 1201 | 538 | 527 | 33 | 0.89 | 1150 |
| 11 | Ray Whitney | 1064 | C/LW/RW | 1991 | 2014 | 1330 | 385 | 679 | -79 | 0.8 | 1176 |
| 12 | Pat Verbeek | 1062 | C/RW/LW | 1982 | 2002 | 1424 | 522 | 540 | -46 | 0.75 | 993 |
| 13 | Daniel Sedin | 1041 | C/LW | 2000 | 2018 | 1306 | 393 | 648 | 147 | 0.8 | 1154 |
| 14 | Bobby Smith | 1036 | C | 1978 | 1993 | 1077 | 357 | 679 | -8 | 0.96 | 839 |
| 15 | Doug Weight | 1033 | LW/C | 1991 | 2011 | 1238 | 278 | 755 | -58 | 0.83 | 1099 |
| 16 | Alexander Mogilny | 1032 | LW/RW | 1989 | 2006 | 990 | 473 | 559 | 81 | 1.04 | 1054 |
| 17 | Alex Kovalev | 1029 | C/LW/RW | 1992 | 2013 | 1316 | 430 | 599 | -31 | 0.78 | 1107 |
Adjusted ranked:
| Player | PTS |
| Pierre Turgeon | 1315 |
| Daniel Alfredsson | 1261 |
| Jeremy Roenick | 1228 |
| Rod Brind'Amour | 1210 |
| Vincent Damphousse | 1193 |
| Henrik Sedin | 1181 |
| Ray Whitney | 1176 |
| Daniel Sedin | 1154 |
| Keith Tkachuk | 1150 |
| Theoren Fleury | 1111 |
| Alex Kovalev | 1107 |
| Doug Weight | 1099 |
| Bernie Nicholls | 1068 |
| Alexander Mogilny | 1054 |
| Pat Verbeek | 993 |
| Dave Taylor | 873 |
| Bobby Smith | 839 |
If Roenick/Nicholls/Damphousse/Alfredsson, Sedins's, Tkachuk, Fleury all make it one day, he would definitely start to look really out of place. Specially that for the younger players, 1200+ points would be such a feat in the lower scoring era that they will all get in automatically.
krutovsdonut
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turgeon was a central casting 1c, and had some great moments, but he never won anything or really threatened to win anything, and that wjc game means there is a roster of influential teammates who could potentially reach out to blackball him.
it's easy to forget he left them a man down behind the iron curtain against the soviets with the lights out. all he had to do was grab the wimpiest russian on the ice and do the waltz.
it's easy to forget he left them a man down behind the iron curtain against the soviets with the lights out. all he had to do was grab the wimpiest russian on the ice and do the waltz.
SantosHalper
Get off my lawn
Should be there. One of my favorite players of all time, but some day he will get his rightfull place in the HHOF. Too bad he never won the cup, he should have come to Detroit at somepoint of his career. Maybe he could have won the cup. Role might have been small, but Stanley cup is a Stanley cup,
Neutrinos
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Isn't it against the rules to leave the bench during a fight?
So he's actually being punished for doing the right thing
And the fact that his teammates didn't stay on the bench essentially cost Turgeon a gold medal
Francis had the reputation as the one of, if not the best defensive center of his era. Plus, he was arguably the 2nd best player on 2 Cup teams (Jagr wasn't the Jagr we remember yet).
sabremike
Friend To All Giraffes And Lindy Ruff
Tell that to all the stupid people who said the Whalers won that trade at the time. When it happened I cried my f***ing eyes out for a solid hour, that was really the day my Whalers really died. And not being quite as good as a total no brainer slam dunk for enshrinement isn't a mark against Turgeon. And again if he is never the victim of a criminal act the narrative on him likely ends up very different.
Maybe, I still don't think that Isles team would have won the cup. It seemed like the classic case of a team pulling a huge upset. They still would have ran into the best playoff goalie of all time, and Gretzky in the finals.
Turgeon simply doesn't bring the intangibles to get in like Francis did. It'd be like putting Toews, Kopitar, or Bergeron (Francis in this case) up against someone with similar but more hollow numbers. I have a hard time thinking someone who was never considered good enough to represent his country internationally in a best on best and only got a Hart vote in one year of his career as HHOF. Although, the HHOF has arguably the lowest standards in professional sports, although Baseball is giving it a run for its money by letting Harold Baines in last week.
sabremike
Friend To All Giraffes And Lindy Ruff
I think the fact that he was on Hockey Canada's shit list for not taking part in the most embarrassing moment in Canadian hockey history (Clarke intentionally injuring a Russian player would also be a valid answer) played a significant role in him not playing for his national team.
No, he wasn't as good as Sakic, Gretzky, Lemieux, Lindros, Nieuwendyk, Yzerman, and Messier. And, the more questionable centers who beat him out like Primeau, Peca, and Brind'Amour were all brought to be shut-down 4th liners and PKers. You can argue Damphousse on the 96 WC team, but they also left guys like Gilmour and Francis at home.
No....
Sundin
Top 20 goal seasons
2,8,10,11,14,15,17,18,20
Top 20 assist seasons
10,14,15,18
Top 20 point seasons
4,7,11,11,12,14,17,20
Modano
Top 20 goal seasons
8,8,15,16,18
Top 20 assist seasons
4,13,17,17
Top 20 point seasons
8,9,10,13,14,15,16
Both players were among the best at their positions for the majority of their careers in the 90s and 00s. Sundin was among the best if not the best player for the Swedes in international competition which most notably included a gold medal at the 2006 Olympics. Modano was also one of the best two-way centres in the game, something that adds additional value to his many great seasons. Evaluating a player's Hall of Fame worthiness on the basis of trophies is a dubious methodology. Both are Hall of Famers and both are a clear step up from the likes of Turgeon.
"Adjusted stats"
I actually agree that Turgeon will eventually get in given the recent inductions of the likes of Phil Housley and Andreychuk. Like them, he will easily be considered part of the bottom 10-15% of all the inductees. Not as obvious a compiler as Andreychuk but fairly close. Pretty one dimensional...didn't bring anything outside of offense...nothing of value internationally...moved around to a lot of different teams in his prime...that sets off some alarm bells in my mind.
I actually agree that Turgeon will eventually get in given the recent inductions of the likes of Phil Housley and Andreychuk. Like them, he will easily be considered part of the bottom 10-15% of all the inductees. Not as obvious a compiler as Andreychuk but fairly close. Pretty one dimensional...didn't bring anything outside of offense...nothing of value internationally...moved around to a lot of different teams in his prime...that sets off some alarm bells in my mind.
Turgeon's numbers will get him into the hall at some point - just like Andreychuk. I threw up in my mouth when I saw the comparisons above between Turgeon vs the likes of Sundin, Modano, Perreault and Hawerchuk. Mind you I love Perreault and Hawerchuk as I am a long time Sabres fan. I hate Modano and Sundin for the same reason. But all four of those guys are far better players than Turgeon - who I grew to actually like over time. He had big shoes to fill when drafted in Buffalo and was in an unenviable position for sure. But he left the team with the reputation of being the "Tin Man" - as in playing with no heart. His talent got him points - but when you needed him most - he did not come through. Same with Andreychuk - who had the nickname Andreychoke in Buffalo. Wouldn't come through in the big games, but would score goals 4 and 5 in a 6-1 win. I ended up appreciating Andreychuk more on his return to Buffalo in 2000 than during his early run in Buffalo.
Turgeon had tons of talent and skill for sure, but I never thought of him as a leader type of player or even an important or go to player on the team. I think that's what distinguishes him from his "points peers" and that comparison underscores the limited value of rating players' careers based on points only.
Turgeon had tons of talent and skill for sure, but I never thought of him as a leader type of player or even an important or go to player on the team. I think that's what distinguishes him from his "points peers" and that comparison underscores the limited value of rating players' careers based on points only.
Stevens is an easy lock for the 2nd best. Francis might have been their best defensive center, but that was good for 21st place in Selke vote the first year (which he spent mostly in Hartford) and none the second. Also no votes in any other category either year. Stevens finished 8th in Hart voting, first all-star, outscored Gretzky as only second player ever (after Mario).
GreatGonzo
Surrounded by Snowflakes
Stevens was also on the wing with Lemieux while Francis drove his line......Stevens was a great player in his own right, but Francis proved to be the better player overall. He was their shut down line and was great. Stevens most likely would have been great without Lemieux, but he definitely benefited from it.
Also Francis moved to the center spot when Lemieux was out in ‘94, ‘95, and ‘98. I mean playing behind Lemieux isn’t exactly a minus.
