There were also fewer teams in the 80s then there were in the 90s and beyond. I'm glad you mentioned missed games due to injury - Savard had one of the most impressive stretches in modern league history from 81-82 to 89-90 - 7 times in the top 10 in PPG - 3,3,7,7,7,8,8. It's worth noting that the majority of Turgeon's top 5 PPG seasons came when Lemieux was injured or retired and Gretzky was past his prime. Easier sledding overall.
Why isn't Pierre Turgeon in the HHOF
- Thread starter GoldenSeal
- Start date
There were also fewer teams in the 80s then there were in the 90s and beyond. I'm glad you mentioned missed games due to injury - Savard had one of the most impressive stretches in modern league history from 81-82 to 89-90 - 7 times in the top 10 in PPG - 3,3,7,7,7,8,8. It's worth noting that the majority of Turgeon's top 5 PPG seasons came when Lemieux was injured or retired and Gretzky was past his prime. Easier sledding overall.
Kunta Kinte
Registered User
- Nov 10, 2011
- 2,922
- 955
95-96 even tho both had same number of pts, I thought Damphousse was a better player than Turgeon.
torniojaws
Registered User
Well, the HHOF is for Hockey, not NHL (per se). The picture becomes clearer when you check the international play of the above three:
Turgeon:
6 junior games, 3G 0A, no hardware, nothing else
Modano:
57 national team games, 14G 27A for 41 points
Played in 9 tournaments
World Cup Gold in 1996
World Cup Silver in 1991
Olympics Silver in 2002
Sundin:
79 national team (senior) games, 43G 51A for total 94 points (1.19 PPG)
Played in 12 tournaments!
Wold Championship Gold in 1991
Wold Championship Gold in 1992
Wold Championship Bronze in 1994
Wold Championship Gold in 1998
Wold Championship Silver in 2003
Olympics Gold in 2006
It's quite clear why they were picked over Turgeon.
In '98 Turgeon was second in Points/game by Canadians. Kariya was 1st but he only played 22 games. Turgeon easily deserved to be on that team.
AlienWorkShop
No, Ben! No!
- Oct 30, 2004
- 3,459
- 342
Always find these borderline cases interesting. I wouldn't really protest Turgeon getting in, but it's definitely a debatable case. His numbers are great, but there's just something about him that screams "very good" and not "great"...
Puts Turgeon at 1315 points (1.02 PPG), Modano at 1408 (0.94), and Sundin at 1410 (1.05)
A slight adjustment. Doesn't hurt Turgeon's case as much as I thought it might.
Hardware/awards comparison:
Sundin: 9 all-star games, 2 second all-star team selections, 1 Mark Messier Leadership Award (granted that shouldn't count for much haha, but it is a sign of respect from his peers)
Modano: 8 all-star games, 1 second all-star team selection, all-rookie team, 1 Cup
Turgeon: 5 all-star games, 1 Lady Byng
Both Modano and Sundin have pretty illustrious international careers too. 1 Olympic gold, 3 golds, 2 silvers, and 2 bronzes in WCs for Sundin, 1 Olympic silver and 1 gold and 1 silver World Cup for Modano, while Turgeon was essentially frozen out of Team Canada (perhaps unfairly due to Piestany, but I don't know if ever declined national duty?)
(edit: I see torniojaws and others already beat me to the international stats! And the adjusted stats... apologies for skimming the thread too much haha)
I was also curious about captaincies. Sundin was the Leafs captain for 10 years, Modano was the Stars captain for only 2 years (I forgot about Hatcher's reign with the Stars!), while Turgeon really only had 1 year as captain of the Canadiens and was barely an assistant captain either.
All-Star selections are obviously an imperfect metric, but combined with his lack of captaincies, it does paint a picture of a player who was never granted 'elite' respect in his day, justified or not.
Again, wouldn't be too against Turgeon getting in, but putting out a few possible reasons why the general perception seems to be he just misses the cut. (As I looked at the above, it made me wonder about Modano's case a bit, but I'm admittedly a biased Leafs fan that doesn't have the perspective of a Stars fan!)
Checking the 'era-adjusted' point totals out of curiosity (NHL & WHA Career Leaders and Records for Adjusted Points | Hockey-Reference.com):
Puts Turgeon at 1315 points (1.02 PPG), Modano at 1408 (0.94), and Sundin at 1410 (1.05)
A slight adjustment. Doesn't hurt Turgeon's case as much as I thought it might.
Hardware/awards comparison:
Sundin: 9 all-star games, 2 second all-star team selections, 1 Mark Messier Leadership Award (granted that shouldn't count for much haha, but it is a sign of respect from his peers)
Modano: 8 all-star games, 1 second all-star team selection, all-rookie team, 1 Cup
Turgeon: 5 all-star games, 1 Lady Byng
Both Modano and Sundin have pretty illustrious international careers too. 1 Olympic gold, 3 golds, 2 silvers, and 2 bronzes in WCs for Sundin, 1 Olympic silver and 1 gold and 1 silver World Cup for Modano, while Turgeon was essentially frozen out of Team Canada (perhaps unfairly due to Piestany, but I don't know if ever declined national duty?)
(edit: I see torniojaws and others already beat me to the international stats! And the adjusted stats... apologies for skimming the thread too much haha)
I was also curious about captaincies. Sundin was the Leafs captain for 10 years, Modano was the Stars captain for only 2 years (I forgot about Hatcher's reign with the Stars!), while Turgeon really only had 1 year as captain of the Canadiens and was barely an assistant captain either.
All-Star selections are obviously an imperfect metric, but combined with his lack of captaincies, it does paint a picture of a player who was never granted 'elite' respect in his day, justified or not.
Again, wouldn't be too against Turgeon getting in, but putting out a few possible reasons why the general perception seems to be he just misses the cut. (As I looked at the above, it made me wonder about Modano's case a bit, but I'm admittedly a biased Leafs fan that doesn't have the perspective of a Stars fan!)
Last edited:
sharkhawk
Registered User
Burke the Legend
Registered User
- Feb 22, 2012
- 8,317
- 2,850
So justifying bad HHOF picks by citing other bad HHOF picks. Gotcha. This Toronto logic must run deep in the HHOF boardroom which is why it's so pathetic compared to Cooperstown.
Burke the Legend
Registered User
- Feb 22, 2012
- 8,317
- 2,850
Neither Sundin nor Modano had any hardware, and just a handful of top 10 point finishes. They are basically the definition of compilers but their favoured reputations made them "stand out" and got them in.
GlitchMarner
Typical malevolent, devious & vile Maple Leafs fan
Or maybe it's almost like the standard for induction isn't what you think it should be and they easily meet it?
The fact that you think a pick is questionable or bad doesn't matter. It's the standard that matters.
Sundin and Modano are among the top 40 in points all-time.
The only players in the top 50 all-time in scoring who are retired and eligible and aren't in are Turgeon (whom this thread is about and I think eventually gets in), Roenick, Nicholls and Damphousse.
The only top 40 scorer of all-time who is retired and eligible and isn't in is Turgeon.
And why are top ten scoring finishes so important as opposed to, say, top 15 or top 20 scoring finishes? Isn't that arbitrary?
NHL Leaders
| Rank | Player | Years | PTS |
|---|---|---|---|
| 1. | Wayne Gretzky* | 1979-99 | 2857 |
| 2. | Jaromir Jagr | 1990-18 | 1921 |
| 3. | Mark Messier* | 1979-04 | 1887 |
| 4. | Gordie Howe* | 1946-80 | 1850 |
| 5. | Ron Francis* | 1981-04 | 1798 |
| 6. | Marcel Dionne* | 1971-89 | 1771 |
| 7. | Steve Yzerman* | 1983-06 | 1755 |
| 8. | Mario Lemieux* | 1984-06 | 1723 |
| 9. | Joe Sakic* | 1988-09 | 1641 |
| 10. | Phil Esposito* | 1963-81 | 1590 |
| 11. | Ray Bourque* | 1979-01 | 1579 |
| 12. | Mark Recchi* | 1988-11 | 1533 |
| 13. | Paul Coffey* | 1980-01 | 1531 |
| 14. | Stan Mikita* | 1958-80 | 1467 |
| 15. | Teemu Selanne* | 1992-14 | 1457 |
| 16. | Joe Thornton | 1997-19 | 1440 |
| 17. | Bryan Trottier* | 1975-94 | 1425 |
| 18. | Adam Oates* | 1985-04 | 1420 |
| 19. | Doug Gilmour* | 1983-03 | 1414 |
| 20. | Dale Hawerchuk* | 1981-97 | 1409 |
| 21. | Jari Kurri* | 1980-98 | 1398 |
| 22. | Luc Robitaille* | 1986-06 | 1394 |
| 23. | Brett Hull* | 1986-06 | 1391 |
| 24. | Mike Modano* | 1989-11 | 1374 |
| 25. | John Bucyk* | 1955-78 | 1369 |
| 26. | Brendan Shanahan* | 1987-09 | 1354 |
| 27. | Guy Lafleur* | 1971-91 | 1353 |
| 28. | Mats Sundin* | 1990-09 | 1349 |
| 29. | Denis Savard* | 1980-97 | 1338 |
| Dave Andreychuk* | 1982-06 | 1338 | |
| 31. | Mike Gartner* | 1979-98 | 1335 |
| 32. | Pierre Turgeon | 1987-07 | 1327 |
| 33. | Gilbert Perreault* | 1970-87 | 1326 |
| 34. | Jarome Iginla | 1996-17 | 1300 |
| 35. | Alex Delvecchio* | 1950-74 | 1281 |
| 36. | Al MacInnis* | 1981-04 | 1274 |
| 37. | Jean Ratelle* | 1960-81 | 1267 |
| 38. | Peter Stastny* | 1980-95 | 1239 |
| 39. | Phil Housley* | 1982-03 | 1232 |
| 40. | Norm Ullman* | 1955-75 | 1229 |
[TBODY] [/TBODY]
*denotes HHOF membership.
Burke the Legend
Registered User
- Feb 22, 2012
- 8,317
- 2,850
Rodgerwilco
Entertainment boards w/ some Hockey mixed in.
- Feb 6, 2014
- 7,351
- 6,664
Well, it IS the HOCKEY hall of fame after all, not the NHL hall of fame.
Being the leading all-time point scorer for a major country (Not like he led Slovenia or Belarus) is almost enough on its own.
GlitchMarner
Typical malevolent, devious & vile Maple Leafs fan
And Sundin is Sweden's all-time leading scorer in NHL points and one of the country's best International players of all-time (if not the best). If Turgeon stood out as much among Canadian players, he would be in. Kind of unfortunate for him that he's from such an elite hockey country. His International hockey resume doesn't help him.
Well, it's fine if you think that, but claiming players only made it in for "political reasons" when they clearly meet the standard is unneeded.
GreatGonzo
Surrounded by Snowflakes
GreatGonzo
Surrounded by Snowflakes
You can finish top 15-20 in points and not be that elite of a player offensively. It’s not that top 10 is arbitrary, it’s a solid standard to compare players by. Turgeon played a majority of his career in a higher scoring era as well, so finishing top 20 in points and he a PPG wasn’t unheard of, but still wasn’t praised. I mean Turgeons top offensive season had him only 5th with 132 points.
GlitchMarner
Typical malevolent, devious & vile Maple Leafs fan
Modano leads his country in all-time NHL points. From '97-'04 he was a two-way player who received Selke votes. His career averages are hurt by the fact that he played for years following his prime. He belongs in the HOF.
Shakey Rustie
Smile
I'm a Modano fan, but that really is a poor argument. Thomas Vanek leads his country in all-time NHL points, and has won the NHL +/- Award. Does he belong in the HHOF?
ClydeLee
Registered User
- Mar 23, 2012
- 11,781
- 5,315
Does he have any other credentials no..
It absolutely is a building part of Modano's hof case. Because it's tied to a hof close NHL career.
GreatGonzo
Surrounded by Snowflakes
What’s the competition level for Austria compared to the United States?
Does Vaneks one season enough to be on par with Modanos entire career?
No. Talk about poor arguments.....
Staniowski
Registered User
Sundin is the best player ever for Team Sweden in best-on-best competitions.
When Sundin, Forsberg and Lidstrom were teammates, Sundin was the best of the three, almost always.
frisco
Some people claim that there's a woman to blame...
Turgeon finished top 10 in points/game five times, Hossa twice. Turgeon is 30th in career points and Hossa 57th. Hossa does have the rings (although he was likely the 4-6th best player on those Chicago teams) and probably a better defensively but I wouldn't say Hossa is a step ABOVE Turgeon. I'd say Hossa is a good comp for Turgeon, with Sneaky Pete getting the slight edge.
My Best-Carey
86Habs
Registered User
- May 4, 2009
- 2,588
- 420
Anybody who watched Mike Modano play in the mid-1990s to early-2000s would recognize he was one of the best players in the game. He was a high impact player and the driving offensive force on a very strong Dallas team that went to back-to-back Cup finals, winning one. Any team that could get through the Detroit/Colorado/Dallas gauntlet in the Western conference in that era was doing something right, and Modano was routinely matching up head-to-head in playoff games against Sakic/Forsberg or Yzerman/Fedorov. From a purely statistical perspective, his offensive production likely suffered quite a bit under Hitchcock's defensive system.
Pierre Turgeon was simply not on the same level as Modano. Turgeon had a good, but unremarkable career. I also wouldn't doubt that he's been "black-listed" for sitting out the Piestany punch-up. Looking at some of the players already in the HHOF, he wouldn't be the worst selection. However, I personally would like to see a higher threshold for players to get in.
Staniowski
Registered User
My thoughts on Pierre Turgeon:
He will get in to the HHOF eventually. His point totals are too high, and he was a lot better player than many players who are already in.
He wasn't a perfect player but I liked him. A phenomenal talent. He should have played for Team Canada in the '96 World Cup and the '98 Olympics. In the season of the '98 Olympics, he had a higher PPG than all other Canadian players, yet wasn't on the team.
If you compare his career to Joe Sakic (who is the same age as Turgeon), their offensive output is about the same for the first 10 seasons of their careers. From '88-'89 to '97-'98 (this excludes Turgeon's rookie year when Sakic was still playing junior), Turgeon had the higher PPG 5 times, and Sakic had the higher PPG 5 times. The difference between them is the remainder of their careers, where Sakic outscores Turgeon every year after '97-'98.
And to compare him to Jagr: During at least 2 of Jagr's Art Ross seasons, Turgeon outscored Jagr per 60 mins of icetime. In both '97-'98 and '99-'00, Turgeon played about 4 mins per game less than Jagr, but Turgeon was the better scorer when on the ice. (I haven't completely verified it, but I think Turgeon was # 1 in the NHL in points per ice time among all top scorers for these 2 seasons).
There are a few issues with Turgeon. One is that he had quite a few injuries, particularly in some of his best seasons. Also, he generally played for some bad teams. He was drafted 1st overall, so Buffalo wasn't great, then traded to the struggling Islanders, and then to the Habs who were in serious decline. Finally, his reputation precedes him now....you can't even discuss him without first hearing about Piestany, the "Tin Man", etc.
It's a shame, I think if he'd played for a team like Pittsburgh he would be remembered a lot differently.
He will get in to the HHOF eventually. His point totals are too high, and he was a lot better player than many players who are already in.
He wasn't a perfect player but I liked him. A phenomenal talent. He should have played for Team Canada in the '96 World Cup and the '98 Olympics. In the season of the '98 Olympics, he had a higher PPG than all other Canadian players, yet wasn't on the team.
If you compare his career to Joe Sakic (who is the same age as Turgeon), their offensive output is about the same for the first 10 seasons of their careers. From '88-'89 to '97-'98 (this excludes Turgeon's rookie year when Sakic was still playing junior), Turgeon had the higher PPG 5 times, and Sakic had the higher PPG 5 times. The difference between them is the remainder of their careers, where Sakic outscores Turgeon every year after '97-'98.
And to compare him to Jagr: During at least 2 of Jagr's Art Ross seasons, Turgeon outscored Jagr per 60 mins of icetime. In both '97-'98 and '99-'00, Turgeon played about 4 mins per game less than Jagr, but Turgeon was the better scorer when on the ice. (I haven't completely verified it, but I think Turgeon was # 1 in the NHL in points per ice time among all top scorers for these 2 seasons).
There are a few issues with Turgeon. One is that he had quite a few injuries, particularly in some of his best seasons. Also, he generally played for some bad teams. He was drafted 1st overall, so Buffalo wasn't great, then traded to the struggling Islanders, and then to the Habs who were in serious decline. Finally, his reputation precedes him now....you can't even discuss him without first hearing about Piestany, the "Tin Man", etc.
It's a shame, I think if he'd played for a team like Pittsburgh he would be remembered a lot differently.
Last edited:
GreatGonzo
Surrounded by Snowflakes
I agree, Hossa playoffs does put him over compared to Turgeon.....but I would argue that Hossa had a lot more consistent top level seasons than Turgeon, and most of them in a lower scoring era compared to Turgeon who saw most of his best offensive seasons in a higher scoring era, yet he barely finished top 10 in any statistic.
It’s close between them, but Hossa IMO maintained a high level of player for a lot longer while being better defensively.
GreatGonzo
Surrounded by Snowflakes
Turgeon did play at a time with some deep center depth, but he still had a hard time distinguishing himself as a top center. I’m not saying AS voting is the only source we can go by, but he rarely got any votes. He also got little to no Hart votes through out his career. As great as he was, he was simply a good player at a time where there were just better players all around him. As great as he was offensively, he still hard a difficult time putting himself up there with the top offensive players in the league.
He sits 8th in overall points from ‘88-‘01. Some noticeable names behind him are Shanahan, Gilmour, and Francis. Does anyone honestly agree he was better than these guys at their very best or overall? Other guys that are comparable under him are Roenick, Recchi, Damphousse, And Brind’Amour.
Take away Turgeons ‘93 season, he’s basically just another good player. That season alone puts him in the conversation. Now I understand there are players there that shouldn’t be or are lesser, but continuing that mindset of “there are worst players in the Hall so such and such should be in”, only continues that vicious cycle.
Shakey Rustie
Smile
You just poked holes in the reasoning I was highlighting. For the record I believe Modano should be in the hall.
