Why is hockey the only sport not to produce a GOAT-calibre player in the last decade or so?

[Thenameless]

Is there even a GOAT baseball player? Seems like there's too many little stats and every year there's fifty new guys people rave about. Or do people still say it's like Hank Aaron or Babe Ruth?

A lot of people still say it's Ruth.

 

[MadLuke]

You also claimed Trout has a chance to be the greatest of all time. Also untrue. You have provided nothing of substance to back up these statements. Good day sir

He 72.6 win above replacement is third all time in is first 9 season:
https://www.baseball-reference.com/...tionMatch=is&orderby=WAR_bat&number_matched=1

Best of all time at 27:
https://www.baseball-reference.com/...tionMatch=is&orderby=WAR_bat&number_matched=1

He is a clear candidate at best of all time career start (either first 9 season or from 19 to 27).

 

[Soundwave]

Crosby's career is fairly comparable to LeBron's. Basketball has more recency bias and more marketing for individuals, so you get more of the "13 year old who thinks Player X/Y/Z is the best because that's all they've seen" effect in basketball.

 

[Red Piller]

He 72.6 win above replacement is third all time in is first 9 season:
https://www.baseball-reference.com/...tionMatch=is&orderby=WAR_bat&number_matched=1

Best of all time at 27:
https://www.baseball-reference.com/...tionMatch=is&orderby=WAR_bat&number_matched=1

He is a clear candidate at best of all time career start (either first 9 season or from 19 to 27).

That’s not what we are debating though. I do not disagree Trout is an immense talent. He is absolutely. By the end of his career he probably will be a top 10 to top 20 player ever. This person said the best. It will not happen. Unless he plays until he is 45 and hits 40 homeruns 100 rbi and steals 25 every single year up until that age, while also winning 8 gold gloves and 5 mvps.

He has struck out 1120 times in his career over 5600 at bats, with 800 walks In 1200 games. Bonds struck out less than 1600 times over his in 12600 plate appearances. On top of 2700 walks through 2900 games. He had a year of 600 OBP. SIX HUNDRED. Nobody can ever match that. Again trout is awesome. They are not comparable players though. If Bonds played in this era with the baseballs how they are he’d have even better numbers.

 

[ScaredStreit]

Ovechkin is definitely in GOAT territory for conversations of best all-time goal scorers. I mean you have Gretzky, Bossy, and Ovechkin as your top 3 probably. I mean when all is said and done Ovechkin could wind up 2nd all time in goals and you don’t think that’s GOAT territory?

EDIT: Forgot to mention Bobby Hull

Gretzky was outscoring his peers in goals (guys like Bossy) by nearly 50%. While Ovechkin has been dominant...he's never been close to that. When we compare Gretzky's goal scoring to that of his peers and then Ovechkin to his...the gap between Gretzky and his is MUCH bigger.

 

[Los merengues]

And for 9 years his boss bought half of the elite players that were available.

Even If that is not true. What is your point excatly?

 

[MadLuke]

That’s not what we are debating though.

Well what would you propose than comparing what a player did during all is time in the league versus is historical competition to know he is has a shoot at being in the goat talk by retirement time ?

Trout WAR after is 27 year's old season

2012 AL 10.5 (1st)

2013 AL 9.0 (1st)

2014 AL 7.6 (2nd)

2015 AL 9.4 (1st)

2016 AL 10.5 (1st)

2017 AL 6.6 (6th)

2018 AL 10.2 (2nd)

2019 AL 8.3 (1st)

[TBODY] [/TBODY]

Bond:

1988 NL 6.3 (8th)

1989 NL 8.0 (3rd)

1990 NL 9.7 (1st)

1991 NL 8.0 (2nd)

1992 NL 9.0 (2nd)

[TBODY] [/TBODY]

 

[Red Piller]

Well what would you propose than comparing what a player did during all is time in the league versus is historical competition to know he is has a shoot at being in the goat talk by retirement time ?

Trout WAR after is 27 year's old season

2012 AL 10.5 (1st)

2013 AL 9.0 (1st)

2014 AL 7.6 (2nd)

2015 AL 9.4 (1st)

2016 AL 10.5 (1st)

2017 AL 6.6 (6th)

2018 AL 10.2 (2nd)

2019 AL 8.3 (1st)

[TBODY] [/TBODY]

Bond:

1988 NL 6.3 (8th)

1989 NL 8.0 (3rd)

1990 NL 9.7 (1st)

1991 NL 8.0 (2nd)

1992 NL 9.0 (2nd)

[TBODY] [/TBODY]

Trouts WAR is great but it’s not the end all stat. There are many. Again I do not disagree he will be an all time great. I just don’t agree he will be the best ever. It’s like saying McDavid will match Wayne’s numbers. It’s not possible. I only bring up bonds career numbers to show how ridiculous they were. Nobody will ever be able to do what he did ever again. Not even mike Trout.

 

[Voight]

Is there even a GOAT baseball player? Seems like there's too many little stats and every year there's fifty new guys people rave about. Or do people still say it's like Hank Aaron or Babe Ruth?

Between him and Bonds IMO. I personally think its Ruth, but if someone said Bonds I wouldn't fight them over it.

 

[LEAFANFORLIFE23]

Because Gretzky set the bar to high.

 

[MadLuke]

Trouts WAR is great but it’s not the end all stat.

If it is somewhat accurate it does sound like the possible end of all stat to compare player across era no ?

I just don’t agree he will be the best ever. It’s like saying McDavid will match Wayne’s numbers. It’s not possible. I only bring up bonds career numbers to show how ridiculous they were.

Not sure which numbers you have in mind but surely they do not matter in a absolute way, they need to take into account the era and how much overall the player helping a team win.

Nobody will have Wayner numbers i this environment but that do not mean that a 75 goals scores 170 points for a long time in this environment would not challenge him, same for some of Bonds ridiculous 4 seasons peak numbers do not mean you cannot challenge is career.

 

[Red Piller]

If it is somewhat accurate it does sound like the possible end of all stat to compare player across era no ?



Not sure which numbers you have in mind but surely they do not matter in a absolute way, they need to take into account the era and how much overall the player helping a team win.

Nobody will have Wayner numbers i this environment but that do not mean that a 75 goals scores 170 points for a long time in this environment would not challenge him, same for some of Bonds ridiculous 4 seasons peak numbers do not mean you cannot challenge is career.

I think we are basically agreeing on the fact that trout started his career, WARwise better than Bonds. Bonds won the same amount of MVPs as trout did when he was with the pirates but Trout started with better WAR sure. I would be shocked if Trout was a 500 500 player at the end of his career though. Let alone a 785 514 player

 

[Ace Card Bedard]

Between him and Bonds IMO. I personally think its Ruth, but if someone said Bonds I wouldn't fight them over it.

Before or after steroids?

 

[Red Piller]

Before or after steroids?

A ton of guys took PEDs in that era and none of them put up Barry Bonds numbers. Steroids were not even banned until 2002. HGH was banned in 2005

 

[MadLuke]

WARwise better than Bonds. Bonds won the same amount of MVPs as trout did when he was with the pirates but Trout started with better WAR sure. I would be shocked if Trout was a 500 500 player at the end of his career though. Let alone a 785 514 player

Even MVP finish wise at 27 he has quite the start

Trout: 1-1-2-2-2-2-4
Bond: 1-1-2

I doubt as well, but what is the relevance of career stolen base total ? Specially in that context:

Considered more and more as a bad play to do, even thought the success rate raised, didn't went down, team/coach over time started to think that there is very little value in stealing base (many season it is a strategy that actively did hurt team's).

Same has looking at strike out during a career:

I would imagine that in baseball like hockey any raw number need to be put in context, using WAR or other metric that compare for what the pitching, ball, stadium, etc... of the sort seem much much better to compare 2 player of 2 different era.

 

[Red Piller]

Even MVP finish wise at 27 he has quite the start

Trout: 1-1-2-2-2-2-4
Bond: 1-1-2

I doubt as well, but what is the relevance of career stolen base total ? Specially in that context:

Considered more and more as a bad play to do, even thought the success rate raised, didn't went down, team/coach over time started to think that there is very little value in stealing base (many season it is a strategy that actively did hurt team's).

Same has looking at strike out during a career:

I would imagine that in baseball like hockey any raw number need to be put in context, using WAR or other metric that compare for what the pitching, ball, stadium, etc... of the sort seem much much better to compare 2 player of 2 different era.

The game has changed a little bit but it’s a lot of the same as well. You’re seeing shifting prevalent a lot more now. Hitting has changed to being about launch angles more than anything else to try to hit more homeruns. Steals have gone down and you are correct in that it’s a lot more easier to get injured stealing bases. But a lot is still the same as well.

The relevance is that he’s the only player in the history of baseball to have 500 homeruns and 500 steals. Nobody even has 400 400. There is a reason for that because it’s rare for someone to have a power speed combination, you usually have one of those but not both at an elite level. Bonds was both. He effected the game in so many different ways. That’s why he is the greatest player ever to live. On top of those skills he had an elite batting eye and took a ton of walks.

 

[Chris18820]

The game has changed a little bit but it’s a lot of the same as well. You’re seeing shifting prevalent a lot more now. Hitting has changed to being about launch angles more than anything else to try to hit more homeruns. Steals have gone down and you are correct in that it’s a lot more easier to get injured stealing bases. But a lot is still the same as well.

The relevance is that he’s the only player in the history of baseball to have 500 homeruns and 500 steals. Nobody even has 400 400. There is a reason for that because it’s rare for someone to have a power speed combination, you usually have one of those but not both at an elite level. Bonds was both. He effected the game in so many different ways. That’s why he is the greatest player ever to live. On top of those skills he had an elite batting eye and took a ton of walks.

Steals are way down and strikeouts up since Bonds retired.
Trout has a better career steal % (85% vs 78%). PEDs did help Bonds, that isnt even debatable. I think he should be in the HoF either way but dont knock Mike Trout. If he continues down the path that he is on he should be in the conversation for GOAT.

 

[Red Piller]

Steals are way down and strikeouts up since Bonds retired.
Trout has a better career steal % (85% vs 78%). PEDs did help Bonds, that isnt even debatable. I think he should be in the HoF either way but dont knock Mike Trout. If he continues down the path that he is on he should be in the conversation for GOAT.

I never knocked him? I said he’d be a top 10 to top 20 player ever. PEDs did help him sure. Just like juiced balls help Trout, not debatable. Homeruns are up since Bonds retirement as well. He has a better steal percentage because he hasn’t attempted as many stolen bases. Trout is a Fantastic player no doubt.

 

[newfy]

Between him and Bonds IMO. I personally think its Ruth, but if someone said Bonds I wouldn't fight them over it.

Isnt Ty Cobb sometimes considered in that equation as best ever but doesnt really get brought up unless its a massive baseball nerd? Like Ruth and Bonds are kinda the easy answers for the casual fan depending how you feel about Bonds steroid use and things like that but Cobb has an argument? Genuinely curious your take here I'm not sure

Similar to boxing where Joe Louis might actually be the best and boxing nerds will bring him up but the casual fans will all say Ali

 

[Red Piller]

Isnt Ty Cobb sometimes considered in that equation as best ever but doesnt really get brought up unless its a massive baseball nerd? Like Ruth and Bonds are kinda the easy answers for the casual fan depending how you feel about Bonds steroid use and things like that but Cobb has an argument? Genuinely curious your take here I'm not sure

Similar to boxing where Joe Louis might actually be the best and boxing nerds will bring him up but the casual fans will all say Ali

People bring up Cobb. I mentioned him earlier. He was a pretty.....dislikable person (so was bonds but he never murdered anyone) but a great player. There is a movie about him with tommy lee jones. It’s great I’d recommend it

 

[bambamcam4ever]

If it is somewhat accurate it does sound like the possible end of all stat to compare player across era no ?



Not sure which numbers you have in mind but surely they do not matter in a absolute way, they need to take into account the era and how much overall the player helping a team win.

Nobody will have Wayner numbers i this environment but that do not mean that a 75 goals scores 170 points for a long time in this environment would not challenge him, same for some of Bonds ridiculous 4 seasons peak numbers do not mean you cannot challenge is career.

No, you can even look at the Fangraphs explanation of their fWAR stat where they explicitly say it is not, and is more of a guide.

Plus it's difficult to compare across eras since wOBA, which is what the offensive portion of WAR is derived from, is calculated differently for modern players than guys like Ruth, and according to it 688 occurrences of Bonds reaching safely had no impact on the game. A great example of a trend that may hold true for a large sample that falls apart at the extremes.

 

[Voight]

Isnt Ty Cobb sometimes considered in that equation as best ever but doesnt really get brought up unless its a massive baseball nerd? Like Ruth and Bonds are kinda the easy answers for the casual fan depending how you feel about Bonds steroid use and things like that but Cobb has an argument? Genuinely curious your take here I'm not sure

Similar to boxing where Joe Louis might actually be the best and boxing nerds will bring him up but the casual fans will all say Ali

Cobb is up there but because he played so early and he and Ruths careers intersected for 14 seasons he often gets overlooked. He set a ton of records but many were either broken by Ruth, or by other players. Plus he was a very violent guy and a huge racist so people don't always like to bring him into the discussion.

RE Bonds, the way I look at it is if you consider only his career pre-Steroids he is still a half o f famers. Now some will argue that he cemented his status as top 5 of all time while using the juice but personally, tons of players used it so I don't think it gave him as big of a boost as others do. Maybe instead of hitting 70 home runs he hits "only" 60.

Plus FWIW, there was never any 100% indisputable evidence that he used them. Its widely suspected but he never failed a test or anything like that.

 

[MadLuke]

you are correct in that it’s a lot more easier to get injured stealing bases.

By hurt I didn't had injury in minds, is that they would have been better with 0 stealing attempt that season all together, the failure costing them more than the net value added by the stolen base.

Homeruns are up since Bonds retirement as well.

For teams has it is a more common strategy to pick HR type players and have them tried to go for it more, but for the top guys is it really up, that the average top 10 HR in the top 10 since 2000:

Year	HR
2019	42.5
2018	39.7
2017	43.2
2016	41.6
2015	41.6
2014	35.4
2013	37.2
2012	39.6
2011	37.7
2010	38
2009	41
2008	38.3
2007	41.1
2006	46.2
2005	44
2004	43.3
2003	43.5
2002	45
2001	52.6
2000	45.2

[TBODY] [/TBODY]

Ranked:

Year	HR
2001	52.6
2006	46.2
2000	45.2
2002	45
2005	44
2003	43.5
2004	43.3
2017	43.2
2019	42.5
2016	41.6
2015	41.6
2007	41.1
2009	41
2018	39.7
2012	39.6
2008	38.3
2010	38
2011	37.7
2013	37.2
2014	35.4

[TBODY] [/TBODY]

 

[haveandare]

The worst players today are better than the ones decades ago. It's a lot harder to flat out dominate the way people could back then. Ov and Crosby are both huge and historic talents. McDavid is well on the way.

None of them are in the conversation for best player ever but most sports don't have a new best player ever every decade or so.

 

[bambamcam4ever]

By hurt I didn't had injury in minds, is that they would have been better with 0 stealing attempt that season all together, the failure costing them more than the net value added by the stolen base.



For teams has it is a more common strategy to pick HR type players and have them tried to go for it more, but for the top guys is it really up, that the average top 10 HR in the top 10 since 2000:

Year	HR
2019	42.5
2018	39.7
2017	43.2
2016	41.6
2015	41.6
2014	35.4
2013	37.2
2012	39.6
2011	37.7
2010	38
2009	41
2008	38.3
2007	41.1
2006	46.2
2005	44
2004	43.3
2003	43.5
2002	45
2001	52.6
2000	45.2

[TBODY] [/TBODY]

Ranked:

Year	HR
2001	52.6
2006	46.2
2000	45.2
2002	45
2005	44
2003	43.5
2004	43.3
2017	43.2
2019	42.5
2016	41.6
2015	41.6
2007	41.1
2009	41
2018	39.7
2012	39.6
2008	38.3
2010	38
2011	37.7
2013	37.2
2014	35.4

[TBODY] [/TBODY]

The ball being used the last two (or 3, can't remember) has less drag and therefore travels father. It doesn't matter where exactly the leaders happen to fall, it is scientifically easier to hit HRs the last 2/3 years, thus why records are being set.