Why is hockey the only sport not to produce a GOAT-calibre player in the last decade or so?

[Chris18820]

I never knocked him? I said he’d be a top 10 to top 20 player ever. PEDs did help him sure. Just like juiced balls help Trout, not debatable. Homeruns are up since Bonds retirement as well. He has a better steal percentage because he hasn’t attempted as many stolen bases. Trout is a Fantastic player no doubt.

During Bonds historic 73hr season the average distance on his hrs was 404.2 feet. Trouts 2019 season average hr distance is 419 feet. The juiced ball might account for at most 4 or 5 feet but not a chance its anywhere near 15 feet. His exit velo is very high. In other words Mike Trout isnt benefiting from the juiced ball.

 

[Chris18820]

The ball being used the last two (or 3, can't remember) has less drag and therefore travels father. It doesn't matter where exactly the leaders happen to fall, it is scientifically easier to hit HRs the last 2/3 years, thus why records are being set.

Except it does matter you just want to ignore it because it weakens your argument. The number of HRs from the top 10 or 20 players in the majors is down from the steroid era in which Bonds played. From the peak in 2001 to the bottom in 2014 it dropped by about 33%.
The ball being juiced the past few seasons has added to the increase but launch angles and the emphasis on HRs has also added to it.

The juiced ball helps borderline or warning track balls become HRs. The problem is Trout doesnt hit many of those. Most of his shots are clear hrs in any era

 

[bambamcam4ever]

Except it does matter you just want to ignore it because it weakens your argument. The number of HRs from the top 10 or 20 players in the majors is down from the steroid era in which Bonds played. From the peak in 2001 to the bottom in 2014 it dropped by about 33%.
The ball being juiced the past few seasons has added to the increase but launch angles and the emphasis on HRs has also added to it.

The juiced ball helps borderline or warning track balls become HRs. The problem is Trout doesnt hit many of those. Most of his shots are clear hrs in any era

I assume you've already looked at the launch angle and exit velocity of all of Trout's HR/ potential HRs to come to this conclusion and totally didn't just make this up.

 

[Red Piller]

During Bonds historic 73hr season the average distance on his hrs was 404.2 feet. Trouts 2019 season average hr distance is 419 feet. The juiced ball might account for at most 4 or 5 feet but not a chance its anywhere near 15 feet. His exit velo is very high. In other words Mike Trout isnt benefiting from the juiced ball.

Exit velocity also is helped by every pitcher being able to throw 95 to 100 mph. Of course it’s going to be higher. Homeruns are up by 1000 a year since bonds retired as well. Yes this is also because of launch angle theory but it’s no coincidence this has happened. MLB even went as far as to purchase Rawlings so they could produce their own baseball. The sport is dying. It needs more fans. More scoring equals more fans. Juiced baseballs equals more scoring.

Again too I think you are misunderstanding. I am not taking shots at Mike Trout. He is an amazing player. He’s not the best hitter I’ve ever seen though. Griffey was better than him too. Tony Gwynn, was also a better pure hitter but didn’t put up counting stats like Trout. Fun debate sir

 

[FissionFire]

A ton of guys took PEDs in that era and none of them put up Barry Bonds numbers. Steroids were not even banned until 2002. HGH was banned in 2005

Steroids were definitely banned. The rules at the time stated that any substance banned for public use in the US (like steroids) were also banned in baseball. There was no specific mention of steroids or HGH in the rules but they were definitely not allowed. Just like there was no specific mention of heroin or cocaine but they are also banned.

 

[JasonRoseEh]

Because unlike other sports, hockey's evolution in speed and skill has produced less space, better defenders and subsequently, lower stats, until recently that is. It's hard to measure astronomical totals from an era with such inflated totals against a modern era that doesn't put up remotely the same type of statistics while being just as, if not more talented.

The NBA and NFL evolved and are putting up higher offensive stats compartive to previous eras, the NHL is the opposite. This is mostly why, the other reason is the NHL fanbase is far more nostalgic than any other, they still think guys like Maurice Richard are top 10 players all time.

Ultimately, Crosby and Ovechkin are CONSENSUS top 10 all timers right now, it's just a matter of where. The comparisons in the NBA are based on the immaturity of the fanbase which likens to the Twitter era where everything is either the greatest or the worst. They have no sense of history in the game and I say this as a guy who grew up with and played college basketball.

 

[JasonRoseEh]

Ovechkin could pass Gretzky in goals and he still wouldn’t be brought up as the greatest of all time. the OP is talking about overall players. Not just one aspect of a sport.

No one really cares in who has the most points in basketball or the most touchdowns in football. GOATS produce in every aspect and win multiple titles with their team. Ovechkin will never be talked about as a GOAT of hockey.

Not sure how you watch or who you listen to but fans and analysts absolutely care about those things and sorry bud, Ovechkin is already discussed as one of the GOAT's in hockey.

 

[thekernel]

Ovechkin could pass Gretzky in goals and he still wouldn’t be brought up as the greatest of all time. the OP is talking about overall players. Not just one aspect of a sport.

No one really cares in who has the most points in basketball or the most touchdowns in football. GOATS produce in every aspect and win multiple titles with their team. Ovechkin will never be talked about as a GOAT of hockey.

Bro, I don't know who sold you your dictionary, but you've got a terrible definition of "GOAT". No amount of haterade is gonna stop Ovechkin from being regarded as one of the best players of all time.

 

[Hockey4Lyfe]

Not sure how you watch or who you listen to but fans and analysts absolutely care about those things and sorry bud, Ovechkin is already discussed as one of the GOAT's in hockey.

No he’s simply not.

There isn’t multiple GOAT’s. There is one for every sport. Ovechkin is not nor will he ever get talked about in the same category as Gretzky or Mario.

He’s simply not good enough.

 

[Hockey4Lyfe]

Bro, I don't know who sold you your dictionary, but you've got a terrible definition of "GOAT". No amount of haterade is gonna stop Ovechkin from being regarded as one of the best players of all time.

You do understand what GOAT means right?

Greatest of All-Time. That is a singular definition and acronym. It isn’t pluralized for a reason.

And it isn’t hatred. Ovechkin isn’t even in the conversation. Nor is anyone playing right now. Not even Crosby. Neither of these two hold a candle to Gretzky and Mario. So no neither can be considered the GOAT.

There is one GOAT. Not multiple GOAT’s. It sounds like you are the one that needs a dictionary, bro.

 

[Red Piller]

Steroids were definitely banned. The rules at the time stated that any substance banned for public use in the US (like steroids) were also banned in baseball. There was no specific mention of steroids or HGH in the rules but they were definitely not allowed. Just like there was no specific mention of heroin or cocaine but they are also banned.

The hGH issue and baseball

HGH was not banned until 2005. They did not test for PEDs until 2003. So you are correct they were banned but they never tested for it. Essentially they allowed it.

 

[MadLuke]

Because unlike other sports, hockey's evolution in speed and skill has produced less space, better defenders and subsequently, lower stats, until recently that is. It's hard to measure astronomical totals from an era with such inflated totals against a modern era that doesn't put up remotely the same type of statistics while being just as, if not more talented.

The league season average for goal by game is 3.026, 3.056 after WW2, 2015-2016 the worst year after the 05/06 lockout had 2.71 goal by game, the nhl had 28 season's with lower scoring than that in is history. It is at 2.84 since the 05/06 season, under the history of the league average but not by that big of a number.

Stats are not lower than during the prime of the original 6, 74/75 to 92/93 was not the necessarily the norm for the sport.

It is never easy to compare era, but standard deviation above the average good players could potentially always work no ? That value is quite constant over the ages I think.

 

[Panthaz89]

The league season average for goal by game is 3.026, 3.056 after WW2, 2015-2016 the worst year after the 05/06 lockout had 2.71 goal by game, the nhl had 28 season's with lower scoring than that in is history. It is at 2.84 since the 05/06 season, under the history of the league average but not by that big of a number.

Stats are not lower than during the prime of the original 6, 74/75 to 92/93 was not the necessarily the norm for the sport.

It is never easy to compare era, but standard deviation above the average good players could potentially always work no ? That value is quite constant over the ages I think.

the big point he's making is that the rule changes in other sports especially the NFL have promoted stat inflation and longevity heavily with all the safety precautions that have been added in. I really don't think certain QBs would have survived back in the older days....you have several QBs playing into their 40s no way that happens without all the protection they give QBs since the 2000s started.

 

[Name Nameless]

It's a good thing it's hard to become way better than the competition.

This just means the competition is really hard.

The easiest way to be the GOAT is to be the one talented guy among useless people.

 

[MadLuke]

the big point he's making is that the rule changes in other sports especially the NFL have promoted stat inflation and longevity heavily with all the safety precautions that have been added in. I really don't think certain QBs would have survived back in the older days....you have several QBs playing into their 40s no way that happens without all the protection they give QBs since the 2000s started.

All the QBs peer will play under those rules change as well too, if it become common to be good in your 40s people (that put time into it) will take that into account while comparing career.

Going from a low scoring 50 games a season league to a 82 games higher scoring league today (with some even more higher scoring in between) isn't easy, but that a given and it was not necessarily easier for people to do that comparison for Gretzky/Lemieux that where trying to pass over Richard/Howe/Orr, they took into account that not winning 10 stanley cups didn't mean they were not better than Richard/Beliveau taking era and team into context.

 

[nihlify]

Ovi can wind up 1st all time in goals and still have essentially zero argument for breaking into the top 4 of all time, which is what the OP means by hockey has not produced a goat calibre player in the last decade or so.

The better overall players become, the harder it will be to distinguish oneself from the pack. Had Crosby or Ovechkin played 10-20 earlier I think people would judge them differently (assuming they kept their skills they've possessed in modern times).

 

[Vasilevskiy]

Gretzky was a hell of a player, other sports haven't really had anything like him, in comparison to his peers. It doesn't look like McDavid is that either, so it remains to be seen when the next prospect with such potential emerges. Seems like it'll take a good while until then.

Eddy Merckx.
Lionel Messi.

And the big 3 in tennis are years light better than the rest.

 

[Vasilevskiy]

Nadal is a doped up freak though, Fuentes client. Federer might also dope of course but the former is certain.

They all do.

 

[Vasilevskiy]

Okay I'm going to challenge you here.

Who's the real GOAT...Messi or Ronaldo ?

Cristiano Ronaldo or Ronaldo Luis Nazario de Lima (the Brazilian Ronaldo).

Will push it even further ?

GOAT...Greatest of all time.

So is Messi or Ronaldo really a GOAT ? Isn't that still Pelé ?

If Messi has a case against Pelé, so does Crosby against Lemieux and Gretzky...

Messi is the Gretzky of football, very very few have done what he has in a single season, and he is doing it for 10+ years.

 

[Man Bear Pig]

MJ for example is obviously the best basketball player of all time, but he's behind Gretzky in the trophy count.

Bit of a higher standard for NHL players to reach.

I disagree that Jordan was the best NBA player of all time. I also disagree about Gretzky being the best(hes #2 for me).

 

[Voight]

Okay I'm going to challenge you here.

Who's the real GOAT...Messi or Ronaldo ?

Cristiano Ronaldo or Ronaldo Luis Nazario de Lima (the Brazilian Ronaldo).

Will push it even further ?

GOAT...Greatest of all time.

So is Messi or Ronaldo really a GOAT ? Isn't that still Pelé ?

If Messi has a case against Pelé, so does Crosby against Lemieux and Gretzky...

I think of all players post-Pele, Messi has the best chance to usurp him as GOAT. Brazilian Ronaldo 100% had the talent too, but due to injuries he wasn't able to accomplish as much as he could have (still had an amazing career tho), Maradona is another one who's up there, but falls short IMO.

The problem is that once a GOAT is declared, the majority of people will not listen to you if you suggest someone else has taken over that mantle. Its like they are GOAT for life.

I disagree that Jordan was the best NBA player of all time. I also disagree about Gretzky being the best(hes #2 for me).

... who do you have above both? If someone puts Orr ahead of Gretzky its not the worst thing but anyone else is the wrong answer.

 

[JasonRoseEh]

No he’s simply not.

There isn’t multiple GOAT’s. There is one for every sport. Ovechkin is not nor will he ever get talked about in the same category as Gretzky or Mario.

He’s simply not good enough.

There's claiming he's the GOAT and there's what I said, "One of the GOAT's" Massive difference, reading is good and I'm absolutely correct, Ovechkin is already considered one of the greatest players of all time as is Crosby.

Also not sure where you've been but people pluralize GOAT all the time now, no TV or in fandom.

 

[JasonRoseEh]

I disagree that Jordan was the best NBA player of all time. I also disagree about Gretzky being the best(hes #2 for me).

No player in NBA history has accomplished more individually or team wise in their career than Michael Jordan. He's won more with less help than any superstar in NBA history and he's done more for the game of basketball than any player in league history. He's indisputably the greatest player in NBA history and it has nothing to do with era. Athletically he was superior to any playing even now and his vertical is tied for the highest entering the NBA. If you took him out of the era he played in MJ would have a much prolonged athletic prime and his stats would balloon to coincide with the pace of the game.

 

[Man Bear Pig]

No player in NBA history has accomplished more individually or team wise in their career than Michael Jordan. He's won more with less help than any superstar in NBA history and he's done more for the game of basketball than any player in league history. He's indisputably the greatest player in NBA history and it has nothing to do with era. Athletically he was superior to any playing even now and his vertical is tied for the highest entering the NBA. If you took him out of the era he played in MJ would have a much prolonged athletic prime and his stats would balloon to coincide with the pace of the game.

And no NBA player has been gifted the calls that jordan has. He was a hell of a player, no doubt, but there needs to be context here. The NBA was desperate at the time for a star. Somebody they could market. Enter Michael Jordan. The fix was in. The league was telling officials to allow him to get away with murder, which he did. Everyone remembers that famous shot of his? Where he breaks the ankles of the opposition? But he really didnt. He pushed off and, without a doubt, should have been called. He was athletic and a superstar, but he was also a part of the NBA marketing machine. Theres documentaries on this subject on YouTube. They can explain it better than I can.

 

[Jumptheshark]

Oiler fans point to McJesus, leaf fans Matthews