Why do so many of the media think the Hall-Larsson trade changed the trade market?

[4thline]

Yeah, I'm a little confused how he reached that conclusion.

Carrick, undeniably, had a better playoffs than Montour. He was also playing with some impressive young talent, and that pace was clearly not the norm for him. Montour, on the other hand, has just continued to put up pretty great numbers.

I get that not everyone knows about Montour. He's an Anaheim prospect(they don't get a ton of exposure), and he is a bit of an unusual case, in terms of the route he's taken. He didn't really fully commit to hockey until a bit later vs. most players. I just wish people would acknowledge they didn't know enough about him, instead of just dismissing him as "not very good". He might well be Anaheim's best prospect right now, and that's competing against guys like Steel, Theodore, Jones, Nattinen, Larsson, etc... He's a legitimate talent.

Eh, Montour is definitely an upgrade as a prospect, but not realms apart. Would I trade Carrick straight up for Montour? Easily. But I woulds easily trade .9 for a dollar.

Also- my thought of them as similar pre-dates Carrick becoming a Leaf, they were the two guys I hoped for as potential high upside lower cost rhd acquisitions when everyone else was Theodore/Bowey/Sanheim or bust

 

[LeafFever]

How much have you actually seen of him again? I'm guessing little, to nothing at all.

You said he isn't very good. I'd love to see a list of people who agree with you, who are actually making an informed opinion. Your opinion, I suspect, is not informed. Not being exposed to a player doesn't mean he isn't good. It just means you don't know them.

And I didn't say you overrate Leaf prospects. What I implied was that you'd actually know something about him if he were a Leaf prospect, and you'd understand how talented he is.

Very little. Just like everyone else here.

 

[A91]

Here's mine:

http://hfboards.mandatory.com/showthread.php?t=2126559

I rock.

This was your post:
"I know the entire planet will disagree with me, but Edmonton with that talent won't miss the playoffs forever. That top 6 forwards they have are sick. I'd take them over any teams forwards.
I do think Talbot was a smart acquisition and is the real deal. The defense isn't a source of strength for the team, but on paper, it looks not bad.
Please proceed to tell me how crazy I am."

1) This was posted mid september, after the team was assembled, more precisely after Larsson was acquired
2) The top6 has been abysmal outside of McDavid-Draisaitl, they have really been letting us down this season.
3 Talbot was a darn good acquisition, no argument there.
4) The defence is a major source of strength, really the main reason we are a competitive team. Just see our ~45 games with Connor in the lineup last season. Without a proper team, he can only take a team so far (Bottom 5).
5) About 50% of fans thought wed make the playoffs, props for predicting it, but props to the millions of others who thought so too.

 

[Sojourn]

Very little. Just like everyone else here.

So your statement that he isn't very good is not an informed opinion. Thank you for confirming that.

 

[Blender]

How much have you actually seen of him again? I'm guessing little, to nothing at all.

You said he isn't very good. I'd love to see a list of people who agree with you, who are actually making an informed opinion. Your opinion, I suspect, is not informed. Not being exposed to a player doesn't mean he isn't good. It just means you don't know them.

And I didn't say you overrate Leaf prospects. What I implied was that you'd actually know something about him if he were a Leaf prospect, and you'd understand how talented he is. My feeling is that if you saw him regularly, you wouldn't deny that he is a very talented prospect. That's my conclusion: Your judgement of him is based on ignorance. There is no shame in not knowing much about a prospect for another team. It's certainly better to admit that you don't know than to put your foot in your mouth and make a false claim.

Most people would rather lie to appear informed than admit they are ignorant.

 

[LeafFever]

This was your post:
"I know the entire planet will disagree with me, but Edmonton with that talent won't miss the playoffs forever. That top 6 forwards they have are sick. I'd take them over any teams forwards.
I do think Talbot was a smart acquisition and is the real deal. The defense isn't a source of strength for the team, but on paper, it looks not bad.
Please proceed to tell me how crazy I am."

1) This was posted mid september, after the team was assembled, more precisely after Larsson was acquired
2) The top6 has been abysmal outside of McDavid-Draisaitl, they have really been letting us down this season.
3 Talbot was a darn good acquisition, no argument there.
4) The defence is a major source of strength, really the main reason we are a competitive team. Just see our ~45 games with Connor in the lineup last season. Without a proper team, he can only take a team so far (Bottom 5).
5) About 50% of fans thought wed make the playoffs, props for predicting it, but props to the millions of others who thought so too.

That # is ridiculous. No, nothing close to 50% thought Edmonton would make the playoffs.
If that is true of 50%, then why did over 90% in that thread disagree with me? Seriously, go through that thread.

 

[Sojourn]

Eh, Montour is definitely an upgrade as a prospect, but not realms apart. Would I trade Carrick straight up for Montour? Easily. But I woulds easily trade .9 for a dollar.

Also- my thought of them as similar pre-dates Carrick becoming a Leaf, they were the two guys I hoped for as potential high upside lower cost rhd acquisitions when everyone else was Theodore/Bowey/Sanheim or bust

I think the difference in their offensive numbers suggests a bit of a larger gap than a 9/10 ratio. Maybe you disagree.

 

[LeafFever]

So your statement that he isn't very good is not an informed opinion. Thank you for confirming that.

I admit. I have seen very, veru little of Montour, but still feel I can comment on him.

I only wish more posters on HF were honest like me about never seeing players they comment on.

 

[realgoodleafs]

They had similar stats and are similar prospects if you know nothing about Montour and think 0.55 points per game is the same as 0.84 points per game...

Carrick had 0.7 last year. I'm sure since it's a Leafs prospect we'll just erase those playoff games from our memory

 

[Sojourn]

I admit. I have seen very, veru little of Montour, but still feel I can comment on him.

I only wish more posters on HF were honest like me about never seeing players they comment on.

Yeah... with all due respect, it's hard to take your last sentence seriously after your first one. You've seen very, very little of a player, but you still feel that you can claim he's not very good, despite all evidence to the contrary. You'll forgive me if I call ******** on that. A defenseman who puts up .80+ ppg in his first and second season in the AHL, and who is already looking pretty good in the handful of NHL games he has played, has a very good argument for being better than "not very good".

I have a funny feeling that if you saw him on the ice, and didn't know his number, you'd have a hard time even recognizing him.

You were only honest about not knowing the player after being called out for your opinions...

Thank you.

 

[McPuritania]

What the **** is with all the Leaf fans in here trashing Chiarelli? Still upset over the Kessel trade?

In the best GM thread, really the only people slagging Chiarelli were Leaf, Bruins, and Wild fans. Shocker, right?

 

[Blender]

I admit. I have seen very, veru little of Montour, but still feel I can comment on him.

I only wish more posters on HF were honest like me about never seeing players they comment on.

You were only honest about not knowing the player after being called out for your opinions...

 

[ZiGOODejad]

Hall trade was lopsided for sure. NJD got the better of the deal but now they're in need of defense .

 

[Sojourn]

Carrick had 0.7 last year. I'm sure since it's a Leafs prospect we'll just erase those playoff games from our memory

Meh. His last two regular seasons in the AHL saw Carrick put up 0.56 points per game. That's a 125 game sample size. He had a great playoff run, but Blender's numbers are an accurate representation of Carrick's production in the AHL.

In the last two regular seasons(admittedly, this is only a partially completed one this season), Montour has 87 points in 102 games. That's 0.85 points per game.

There is, pretty clearly, a rather large gap between the two offensively. Those 15 playoff games might make the gulf look smaller, but only so long as you try to avoid the big picture. Including playoffs, considering the last two seasons, Carrick's numbers get bumped to 0.61. Montour's numbers dip to 0.82. That's the difference, if we're looking at an 82 game pace, of 50 points vs. 67 points. That's a rather large difference, and it took a fantastic run from Carrick to even make it that close.

 

[LeafFever]

You were only honest about not knowing the player after being called out for your opinions...

And everyone else still never admits it after being called out.

 

[Mr Positive]

Hall trade was lopsided for sure. NJD got the better of the deal but now they're in need of defense .

but how do they fix the defense? There are usually UFAs out there, but that's what they've already done. They got Lovejoy. My point is that you won't get a core type of defense that way or by trading some middling forwards. The best you could hope for is a guy like Demers. Not only that, but when a young D becomes available there is incredible competition to get them because of how important they are.

I suppose there is some hope around the expansion draft to find that D, but I doubt it. All key D will be protected imo.

So sure, they won the trade, but winning hockey games is not about winning trades. In fact, the worst trades are often made by the best teams. Chicago didn't get great value for Saad for example, and many contenders throw picks away for nothing just for rentals, rentals which often don't do all that great.

 

[struckbyaparkedcar]

It doesn't really impact leaguewide value because of perceived upside due to draft position.

Contenders getting to add first line caliber players for entirely non-roster assets - Gaborik and Kessel was far more indicative of the value of misfit skill.

 

[ItWasJustified]

[MOD]

Devils are worse off without Larsson than with him. Oilers are better with Larsson than without him.

I would bet my right arm that Oilers would not be as good as they are without Larsson. OP should stop looking at EA Sports NHL ratings and start watching real hockey instead.

 

[Blitzago*]

[MOD]
Yeah hall has sure injected life into that offense of yours.

 

[rboomercat90]

Yeah hall has sure injected life into that offense of yours.

He has. They've scored 2 more goals than they had at this point last year.

 

[BlueBaron]

Toronto has too many forwards, and are weak on D. Nylander for Montour would be an extremely smart move, Leaf fans will never accept that though so no point arguing.

Arbitrarily deciding something you think of as smart and all of us as too stupid to agree with is some special kind of arrogance.

Many Leafs fans have entertained the notion of Nylander for a defenseman, some even the brilliant one you came up with that most of us are too stupid to agree with. We'll see if management feels we are there yet. I doubt we are, we still have a lot of drafting and developing to do. I'm not sure the rebuild is over yet.

 

[aemoreira1981]

One must wonder if the Islanders could have gotten a lot more for Travis Hamonic now...defensive D-man, top pair potential, right handed, and a long term cheap deal. Larsson is all four of those things, and the Oilers had a need for that spot.

 

[Eric Sachs]

He has. They've scored 2 more goals than they had at this point last year.

Are we back to just making **** up again?

Please explain the logic behind taking the actual amount of goals scored in 82 games last year, pro-rating it to a 54 game pace and then making the claim you just did. Not to mention, your crude math doesn't take into account the games Hall missed due to injury earlier in the year. You can argue that it shouldn't but it's a misleading claim without that qualification.

Anyways, you didn't calculate how many goals they had at this point last year so it's a bogus claim. Not to mention, how stupid is it to take an actual 82 game pace and pro-rate it to 54 games than vice versa?

Use real numbers. Again, it's not that hard. They very well can strengthen your point but you just look foolish when you make **** up.

 

[aemoreira1981]

Leave it to Chia to do something stupid and screw things up for everyone else

This is the kind of trade that actually takes balls. Every team needs defensemen who can play well, and young good right defensemen are a premium product. My guess is that Chia might have wanted Travis Hamonic but was foolishly rejected by Garth Snow.

 

[Cheddabombs]

Why do so many HF posters believe they actually know what the market value of a player is?