Who would you choose 1st overall? (non Oiler fans)
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Wheatking
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- Sep 25, 2006
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Is Pronger the exception? Every single defenseman drafted in the top 5 from 2001-2006 have been traded at least once. There are some pretty good names on that list too.
Guys like Boyle, Visnovsky, Chara, Jovanovski, Bouwmeester, Whitney, Pitkanen, Byfuglien, Gonchar, Timonen, Phaneuf and E. Johnson have all been traded or hit free agency. It sounds like Weber could hit the open market next summer. The Canucks were able to add Hamhuis and Ehrhoff to put their defense over the top. They may not be #1 Dmen but they're a solid #2 on a lot of teams in the league.
GlassesJacketShirt
Registered User
Let's break this down:
Firstly, remove Visnovski, Jovanovski, Bouwmeester, Whitney, Pitkanen, Byfuglien, Timonen, Phaneuf and Johnson from that list, since they were never/aren't yet franchise defensemen like Larsson is projected by some to be.
Now, the two that remain are Boyle and Chara. In Boyle's case, I'll give that one to you. In Chara's case, everyone and their mothers were confounded when Ottawa kept Redden over him, and the trade-off continues to look worse over time: Ottawa would've been a strong team to this day if they kept him.
When all is said and done, it will be up to Edmonton's scouts to determine what they see RNH and Larsson as, and if they conclude that they'll both be franchise players, then taking the defenseman would definitely not be the wrong thing to do, especially when one considers Larsson's calm on-ice demeanor. He gets compared to some by Lidstrom for a reason.
Not saying they should take him necessarily, but to say that franchise centremen are more valuable than franchise D-men is a stretch at best. Keep in mind that franchise D-men play tons of minutes, especially in the playoffs.
Cory Trevor
Smokes, Let's go
Larsson is best player available. RNH is being thrown around because he's Canadian and a possible future 1 center. Larsson's ready. Hate the Datsyuk comparison to for RNH. No one has hands like Datsyuk. He plays a similar game but thats about all.
Now if you are the Oilers, look at this way. Do you want the sexy pick who may or may not be the centerman of Oates to your wing of Hall? It may make your dreams come true.
All kidding aside, I'd take Larsson. Kid's a bonafide talent. RNH and Hall seems dreamy and whatnot, but in most cases, this world is ugly and perfect things like this never happen, they occur or develop with time. Putting two together that look like they could be great rarely works if ever.
Larsson's the smarter pick
Now if you are the Oilers, look at this way. Do you want the sexy pick who may or may not be the centerman of Oates to your wing of Hall? It may make your dreams come true.
All kidding aside, I'd take Larsson. Kid's a bonafide talent. RNH and Hall seems dreamy and whatnot, but in most cases, this world is ugly and perfect things like this never happen, they occur or develop with time. Putting two together that look like they could be great rarely works if ever.
Larsson's the smarter pick
nowhereman
Registered User
In the last few years, franchise players like Crosby, Ovechkin, Malkin, Stamkos, Kane, Toews, Backstrom, E. Staal, Getzlaf, etc. all made absolutely huge contributions to their team and the future of their organization, within three years of being drafted. Yet, top three defensive studs like the two Johnsons, Bouwmeester, Barker, Bogosian, Hedman, etc. have contributed to their team in far less signigicant ways.
After parussing through this thread, I'm surprised their aren't any Dougie Hamilton votes. Does have a realistic chance of being the first overall pick? Probably not, but without a doubt has the chance to be the best player out of this draft class when you combine shear potential with his size toppled by his excellent skating ability.
GlassesJacketShirt
Registered User
Your argument isn't bad, but none of the D-men you named are franchise D-men. I don't mind getting into a deep healthy debate about this, but my overall point is this: With regards to Larsson, if the Oilers brass believe he can be an actual franchise D-man, then they should definitely consider him as a potential no.1 pick, because real franchise D-men, and even in some cases those barely below this ranking, have turned franchises around.
McIce Whole
Registered User
Yet every single scout out there would disagree with you and have RNH number 1. There is a reason he is there, he has the most upside in this draft. If he's not ready, he will be back in the WHL but I believe he will be ready. Remember what people were saying about Hedman back in the 09 draft? How some were saying Tavares is too slow to make it to the NHL and Hedman is the real deal. This draft seems to be just like that.
GlassesJacketShirt
Registered User
He most probably won't get into the top 3, but I don't disagree with you about his potential. I don't know whether the comparisons to Alex Pietrangelo are fair, but I could see him being a No.1 defenseman for sure.
SDig14
Registered User
I'm not sure it's that franchise centermen are necessarily more valuable, it's that over the last 10 years it seems a lot easier to acquire defensemen. They take longer to develop, so teams tend to give up on them more often. If they don't, some d-men are nearly UFAs by the time they hit their prime.
If you draft a centre and he develops into a franchise player, he will be locked up much sooner because teams see what his potential is much sooner.
Sure, sometimes there's a Doughty type guy who steps in right away and makes a big impact, but there are simply far more impact centers drafted in the top 5 since 2000.
In the end, you take the guy you think who will be the best regardless of position, but if they are identical IMO you take the forward.
Bieber fever
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GlassesJacketShirt
Registered User
What you say is true, but I keep on hearing that Larsson is ahead of the curve development-wise, which is why I think it should be a tough decision to make in this particular instance. Looking at history is nice, but it takes attention away from the individual in question.
All that being said, your argument is sound.
Wheatking
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- Sep 25, 2006
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I didn't know we were talking about franchise Dmen. I was just looking at #1 Dmen that had been moved.
...and I haven't heard anyone say Larsson projects to be a franchise Dman since last summer. Right now scouts debate over whether he'll be more than a #2 Dman. If he was looked at as a franchise player he would be the consensus top pick. He's not even the consensus #2 right now.
Edmonton can't pass up a chance to have: Hall - RNH - Eberle, i'm pretty sure these guys won't be re-united next season but in 2 years put those 3 together and it will be an awesome line, the overall play of Hall and his scoring abilities, RNH's great playmaking skills and Eberle's clutchness with nice skills..
IMO I think Gabriel Landeskog will be the most complete player in the draft as he has great leadership qualities and offensive ability.
He;s my choice if I had the #1 pick.
He;s my choice if I had the #1 pick.
Havnt really scene him but top defenceman is what I project him as. I do not see him as good as people like phaneuf and bouwmester tho, I see him and hedmen being a lot alike
biturbo19
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- Jul 13, 2010
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while often times i think this holds VERY true, in the case of RNH vs. Couturier, it almost seems like it works against him a bit in the minds of some here.
it's almost like some people have formed this sort of 'black and white' oversimplification of it as, 'skilled small guy' vs 'not skilled big guy', which is more than a bit inaccurate. Couturier is still a very skilled player, who knows how to put up points and IMO from what i've seen, does it in a more straightforward, 'pro-style' sort of way. sure RNH appears to have the much higher offensive ceiling, but Couturier is no slouch, and that size DOES afford him the potential to do other things that RNH will never be able to match.
at times it just seems like a lot of people downplay Couturier's offensive abilities almost because of the size and the other elements he brings to the table.
ted2019
History of Hockey
Forget your reading galsses I said last 10 years and how in the Hell is Briere or Drury considered franchis centerman give me a break so If you go back that many years . So your list reads Thornton and Richards bravo
GlassesJacketShirt
Registered User
A lot of people have compared Larsson to Lidstrom for a reason outside of his swedishness. I saw him at the World Juniors: great first pass, great defensive work, decent skater for his size, extremely high level of hockey sense. He won't necessarily be a franchise player, but it's easy to see that he has the mental game to get to that level, same with Nugent-Hopkins.
As for Larsson not being the consensus number two, that's not the case, in fact, pretty much every ranking has him there, only the mock drafts from non-pros seem to push him down a bit. I know that ISS and McKenzie currently have him at no. 2, and CSS rankings separate the two continents. The only professional that doesn't have Larsson at no. 2 is the Red Line Report, of course, who has him at no. 3 behind RNH and Landeskog.
I keep two things in mind here: firstly, Larsson isn't particularly flashy, so he doesn't get some scouts on their feet like a dynamic forward. Second, and I mean this, Larsson isn't Canadian, history does show a bias towards North Americans in rankings. The only exception I can recall is 2004 and 2001.
GlassesJacketShirt
Registered User
while often times i think this holds VERY true, in the case of RNH vs. Couturier, it almost seems like it works against him a bit in the minds of some here.
it's almost like some people have formed this sort of 'black and white' oversimplification of it as, 'skilled small guy' vs 'not skilled big guy', which is more than a bit inaccurate. Couturier is still a very skilled player, who knows how to put up points and IMO from what i've seen, does it in a more straightforward, 'pro-style' sort of way. sure RNH appears to have the much higher offensive ceiling, but Couturier is no slouch, and that size DOES afford him the potential to do other things that RNH will never be able to match.
at times it just seems like a lot of people downplay Couturier's offensive abilities almost because of the size and the other elements he brings to the table.
^this
Sure I can they are from really close dna. Like I could compare Bobby Hull to Brett Hull And it has been stated Skating is a issue for Couturier so if his dad who was a better offensive player Imo than Sean . Could the skating Issue maybe be genitic ? Couturier is the riskiest oick of the bunch it is why he has been dropping down all year. Like Schremp before him scouts see some red flags.
SDig14
Registered User
I agree. In the end, you don't look at the past to judge the players in front of you, at least IMO. People try to use a lack of NHL stars coming out of the WHL as a knock on RNH as well.
The only way I look at past drafting trends is if you are left with 2 guys and you simply can't decide between the 2. However, it seems like our Head Scout has a guy ahead of everyone else, so in less than 2 weeks we will see which guy it is.
