Speculation: Which RFA is most likely to be traded?

[silverfish]

Not once did I say either of those.

Where do you get this **** from? I was agreeing with you. Just was stating that Hayes was scratched so obviously the coach wasn't liking what he saw.

The way I read your post, it was a whole bunch of narrative of stats not telling the whole story, and saying AV scratched Hayes.

If I misread, that's on me.

It's because Hayes had a questionable effort level. Not backchecking, losing his man consistently. Not playing physical.

While Miller went all out... while he would make that occasional boneheaded mistake... the effort wasn't an issue.

I don't know if there's an advanced stat for losing your man because you're floating back after a soft turnover... but I'd bet Hayes would be leading Miller in that category.

You mean like goals against when you're on the ice? Where Hayes was better than Miller? Or having more shot attempts for the Rangers rather than against when you're on the ice, where Hayes was slightly better than Miller?

Otherwise, I'd suggest that you're remembering a few selective times where Hayes may have lost his man, and forgetting some of those same errors that Miller may have made.

If I came into this thread and said something like:

I don't know if there's an advanced stat for being a moron and chucking a blind backhanded pass from the half-wall through the middle of your own zone... but I'd bet Miller would be leading Hayes in that category

... How would you respond?

 

[Mikos87]

The way I read your post, it was a whole bunch of narrative of stats not telling the whole story, and saying AV scratched Hayes.

If I misread, that's on me.



You mean like goals against when you're on the ice? Where Hayes was better than Miller? Or having more shot attempts for the Rangers rather than against when you're on the ice, where Hayes was slightly better than Miller?

Otherwise, I'd suggest that you're remembering a few selective times where Hayes may have lost his man, and forgetting some of those same errors that Miller may have made.

If I came into this thread and said something like:

I don't know if there's an advanced stat for being a moron and chucking a blind backhanded pass from the half-wall through the middle of your own zone... but I'd bet Miller would be leading Hayes in that category

... How would you respond?

Miller would be leading in those types of turnovers... which I did allude to has boneheaded turnovers... but until there is a quantifiable measure for effort, on paper, for the game of hockey... a subjective measurement... you will not have an objective chart to base your opinion on effort level. Nor an agreeable conversation outside of your mileau regarding the topic at hand.

 

[Amazing Kreiderman]

Again, its bad enough we had to move Hagelin
Kreider is the ONLY dominate one
he goes nowhere.

Buh bye, Stepan

Sure. Trade our best center

 

[silverfish]

Miller would be leading in those types of turnovers... which I did allude to has boneheaded turnovers... but until there is a quantifiable measure for effort, on paper, for the game of hockey... a subjective measurement... you will not have an objective chart to base your opinion on effort level. Nor an agreeable conversation outside of your mileau regarding the topic at hand.

Well, all the more power to Hayes then. He can give this terrible effort, and still produce points at the same rate of a going all out Miller. Says as much about Miller as it does Hayes if you ask me.

Can't wait to see what Hayes can do on the ice if he starts trying.

 

[Matz03]

The obvious should be none.

Miller did have a breakout year when finally getting bumped up in the line up, he should be a top 6 forward and continue to get his minutes and keep developing. We still haven't really seen enough to know what his peak is. He can skate, hit, has the vision to be a playmaker and plenty good shot when given the space. I would think he starts to peak from 25-29, so still a few years from seeing his best.

Hayes did have a bad second year, but only by the standard he set in his excellent rookie year. He didn't have linemates that complemented his play enough, got played out of position too often. I would look to surround him with a better, speedier cast. Someone to retrieve and preferably a righty that can shoot. I'd play him on the pk and give him more responsibly and minutes that way. With his reach and size he could be a B.Boyle lite and become more of a complete player that way. I think he's another player that won't peak for 2-3 more years.

Krieder shouldn't be expected to finally have that breakout year next year, accept that he's a 20-20 guy but can dominate games physically and raises his play in the playoffs. I would experiment with him playing right wing, on the rush it would open up his shot more as an option, give the d and goalies a different look. Stepan being the perfect pairing to se this up.

All three guys are still young, none of them are redundant to each other and bring something a little different. Find some players to compliment them more, give them all consistent roles, they are the core that doesn't have to be messed with.

 

[Mikos87]

Well, all the more power to Hayes then. He can give this terrible effort, and still produce points at the same rate of a going all out Miller. Says as much about Miller as it does Hayes if you ask me.

Can't wait to see what Hayes can do on the ice if he starts trying.

And I don't disagree with you... I've made a few posts here about the advanced stat move to make is to trade Brassard and put Hayes in that role...

Top 6 center, favorable matchups, prime PP time, and always playing with talented players.

Brassard's 3 year $10M deal starts on July 1st.

Would that be valuable to a team like ANA? Especially considering how well Brassard played with Perry at the WCs?

 

[Glen Sathers Cigar]

Hopefully none of them.

 

[Holocene]

Keep them all please.

 

[Riche16]

Well, all the more power to Hayes then. He can give this terrible effort, and still produce points at the same rate of a going all out Miller. Says as much about Miller as it does Hayes if you ask me.

Can't wait to see what Hayes can do on the ice if he starts trying.

So then IF... he starts trying?

I mean I get u don't like Miller but Jesus... Advocating a guy because he "may" start trying? That's the culture we are cultivating now?

If his effort was suspect and that played a part in his benching... U should stop banging the drum so loudly for him. Or at least stop trying to prove that his season was as good or better than Miller's. He took a bit of a step back... Miller took one forward and they had a close season but if Hayes was a step back due to effort, u shouldn't be defending him so righteously.

I DON'T want to trade him but he needs to show a lot more going forward

 

[Raspewtin]

I DON'T want to trade him but he needs to show a lot more going forward

The point that he's making is that what Miller "showed" has roughly equated what Hayes has showed this season and one is being billed a total failure, while the other a budding star. I liked a lot of things about Miller's game this year and Hayes pissed me off a lot at separate points this season but people are really harping on this effort thing as if Hayes was a big net negative this year.

 

[silverfish]

The point that he's making is that what Miller "showed" has roughly equated what Hayes has showed this season and one is being billed a total failure, while the other a budding star. I liked a lot of things about Miller's game this year and Hayes pissed me off a lot at separate points this season but people are really harping on this effort thing as if Hayes was a big net negative this year.

Yes, thank you. People are latching on to this whole "silverfish blindly hates Miller" view, which I guess I've earned, but they are ignoring the evidence being shown to them - which is that Miller and Hayes had very, very similar seasons.

 

[Infinitum Vitae*]

Silverfish blindly hates Miller.

 

[silverfish]

Silverfish blindly hates Miller.

When I evaluate NHL players who aren't Miller:

When I evaluate Miller:

 

[Mac n Gs]

The good thing about this whole argument is that Hayes should realistically have better linemates this season. As long as he comes into camp in shape, we can expect to see the Hayes from his rookie year rather than his sophomore year

 

[Riche16]

When I evaluate NHL players who aren't Miller:

When I evaluate Miller:

This literally cracked me up

 

[Ail]

When I evaluate NHL players who aren't Miller:

When I evaluate Miller:

What about expectations?

You at one point said you thought Miller was going to bust. Yet on other hand you seem to be a bigger fan of Hayes and his skill set. Based on your expectations of both players, you of all people should be praising Miller, and disppointed with Hayes. If Hayes clearly is the better player, then his play last year must have been a pretty decent slump to put out identical numbers to a guy who was on the verge of busting as recently as last offseason? If what Hayes did last season is not a slump, then how can you objectively say he is a better player than a guy he put up similar numbers to? I don't think s% and teammates alone could take a bust to a 40+ point season.

With all that being said I think Hayes probably is the superior player, and Miller did have some great bounces during his hot streak. He is going to regress in the s% department, but there was definitely a difference between the play on the ice regarding these two players. I personally felt Miller was the best forward on the ice multiple games last year. I think Hayes was once, maybe.

As far as the topic goes, I chose Kreider. I would keep Miller and Hayes over him. He has the most value in a trade and will cost more money, sooner.

 

[Bleed Ranger Blue]

I'll go with Hayes, mainly because I think he has an attitude problem and I dont think the team is touching Stepan/Brassard.

 

[Vinny DeAngelo]

I'll go with Hayes, mainly because I think he has an attitude problem and I dont think the team is touching Stepan/Brassard.

Lol if you think Hayes has a attitude problem, what do you call Miller?

 

[silverfish]

What about expectations?

You at one point said you thought Miller was going to bust. Yet on other hand you seem to be a bigger fan of Hayes and his skill set. Based on your expectations of both players, you of all people should be praising Miller, and disppointed with Hayes. If Hayes clearly is the better player, then his play last year must have been a pretty decent slump to put out identical numbers to a guy who was on the verge of busting as recently as last offseason? If what Hayes did last season is not a slump, then how can you objectively say he is a better player than a guy he put up similar numbers to? I don't think s% and teammates alone could take a bust to a 40+ point season.

With all that being said I think Hayes probably is the superior player, and Miller did have some great bounces during his hot streak. He is going to regress in the s% department, but there was definitely a difference between the play on the ice regarding these two players. I personally felt Miller was the best forward on the ice multiple games last year. I think Hayes was once, maybe.

As far as the topic goes, I chose Kreider. I would keep Miller and Hayes over him. He has the most value in a trade and will cost more money, sooner.

Thesis statement:

Miller totally exceeded my expectations this past season, and I'm hoping he keeps it up in the future. However, due to the state of this thread, and HFNYR in general, it perplexes me why the same people praising Miller for being this worldbeater are also ******** on Hayes for having a terrible season. It is my belief that the season Hayes and Miller had in 15-16 were quite similar and nearly identical. This logic makes me curious as to why Miller is this untouchable asset, and Hayes can be lost without much pain to the Rangers.

This especially when Miller just had by far and away his best season in the NHL, Hayes had a sophomore slump. Considering their seasons were so similar, doesn't this mean that Hayes is most likely to be better than Miller? And, since one plays wing, and the other center, shouldn't we lean towards keeping the center over the winger?

In the grand scheme of things, I view miller as inconsequential to the Rangers future. An easily replaceable 40-50 point winger with a bit of "jam" (Torts, 2012). A lesser Brandon Dubinsky.

 

[Bleed Ranger Blue]

Lol if you think Hayes has a attitude problem, what do you call Miller?

I call Miller a younger player who is trending in the right direction.

Hayes' entire season could be summed up in one word - lazy.

 

[FLYLine27*]

I call Miller a younger player who is trending in the right direction.

Hayes' entire season could be summed up in one word - lazy.

Oh Jeeze

 

[Amazing Kreiderman]

I call Miller a younger player who is trending in the right direction.

Hayes' entire season could be summed up in one word - lazy.

It was Hayes' 2nd pro season, it was Miller's 4th

 

[Vinny DeAngelo]

I call Miller a younger player who is trending in the right direction.

Hayes' entire season could be summed up in one word - lazy.

This just shows the massive amount of bias the majority of this board shows in favor of Miller..
Yes he took a step this year but it was a step everyone has been saying he's going to make for the past 2-3 yrs.. He's just a less talented Dubinsky

 

[bobbop]

If there's a market for Hayes (big IF) I expect he will be moved.

 

[NYR94]

Tough call. I don't even know who I'd pick.

Trade Nash first, let me see what the Rangers get, then I'll revisit this.