BKIslandersFan
F*** off
No it isn't. If basketball fans were fairweather, Knicks woulda gone out of business long ago sonny.
Which city has potential to have 2 or more NHL teams
- Thread starter alko
- Start date
No Fun Shogun
34-38-61-10-13-15
Knicks currently average over 19,000 attendees per game and over 96% capacity despite being mostly hot garbage for a half decade.
2018-2019 NBA Attendance - National Basketball Association - ESPN
I like ripping on New York as much as the next guy, but that ain't bad.
Nets is another matter, but that's a transplant team that the only good thing going for them was that locals liked a team called Brooklyn again.
All that being said, let's speak to each other as adults on this board. No need for diminutive phrases.
2018-2019 NBA Attendance - National Basketball Association - ESPN
I like ripping on New York as much as the next guy, but that ain't bad.
Nets is another matter, but that's a transplant team that the only good thing going for them was that locals liked a team called Brooklyn again.
All that being said, let's speak to each other as adults on this board. No need for diminutive phrases.
justafan22
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- Jun 22, 2014
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Yeah, this is on point. Toronto proper (within the city limits) is a Leafs town, you get into Missisauga/markham/vaughan areas, then that's where the market could be tapped into. But it would never work at the same arena
justafan22
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- Jun 22, 2014
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The old hershey centre is a decent location, though unless Angelo Paletta (the guy Friedman brought up last year as talking to bettman over interest in owning a team) is the owner it'll 99% likely be Bell owning the team.
justafan22
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- Jun 22, 2014
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Yup. It would be a whitesox/cubs type situation with the two teams. It's only an hour away by car.
BattleBorn
50% to winning as many division titles as Toronto
I'm not sure it wouldn't work at the same arena, there's plenty of demand and I'm sure people would like some less expensive NHL tickets available in Toronto.
Logistically, I'm not sure how it would work. In a basketball situation you can replace the floorboards in the key and the center logo in a few hours. In an ice rink situation you're melting down the ice, replacing a decal, and making more ice to cover the logo. Either that, or a new Toronto team that's trying to get a foothold in Toronto is playing games with the Maple Leafs logo at center ice. I'm sure the Leafs wouldn't want the dilute their brand in a similar situation to the Giants/Jets situation with an league logo at center ice.
justafan22
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- Jun 22, 2014
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Yeah I agree with that. It would be the same cost as the leafs or around it since Bell would likely own the team.
We know attendance numbers need to be taken with a grain of salt. Go on stubhub and look what it costs for Knicks tickets, and I am not talking about tickets for a game that day where prices will drop. You will likely be surprised. When they are good, they are the hottest ticket in town. When they are bad, the majority of the Knicks fans will pay more attention to the better teams in the league. Doesn't happen with the other sports in this town.
GuelphStormer
Registered User
this is the sort of discussion worth having. shared venues within the same league/sport seem to becoming more common. but unlike NFL/football, where a mere tenant can still make untold millions, NHL/hockey requires some cut in venue revenues to be profitable. i just can't see anyone able to actually afford to buy a GTA2 franchise wanting to be a tenant, so in my mind, it means a new, different building. which means venue competition, which with the ACC/Scotia arena now 20 years old, could quite easily affect event bookings, depending on where the new arena is located. lots of moving parts in this whole discussion. im often wrong, but i just don't see a 2nd team playing in that arena.
Probably go with a venue logo at center-ice. Giants Stadium had that for years before they switched to grass.
BKIslandersFan
F*** off
Sir, I lived here for most of my life. I hate the Knicks. But this city LOVES the Knicks. You turn to talk radio and sports talk show and people call in about them even at their lowest.
That’s not fair weather.
The only one that might is the GTA; however, it would be qualified as being the 905 team with its own arena outside downtown (similar to LA/Anaheim or Rangers/Islanders). If Toronto II played at the ACC (similar to the Lakers/Clippers), they would probably be considered a failure.
One thing I wonder about the 2nd team is history and emotional attachment. Sure, some of these larger markets have the population (and potential wealth) to support a second hockey team, but what about the emotional attachment? How many people in the GTA are willing to switch from being Leaf fans to Toronto II fans? The Leafs have ~100 years worth of history and generations of fans, and even if the population exists I don't know if there would be enough people willing to switch. Look at the challenges the Senators face, and they are in their own market. Toronto II would essentially become an opportunity for the Maple Leafs to play a couple more home games.
One could argue that a lot of the 2 market teams for the 4 major leagues are historical remnants, and that they began in separate leagues and entered the market in a relative similar time frame, although there are exceptions. In this day in age where teams are generating revenue streams from outside the traditional "fans in the stands" (season ticket holders and otherwise), it seems that breaking into an established market would be more difficult. I think Toronto II would have at lot more difficulties establishing a fan base in an established and ingrained Maple Leaf territory than the (Mighty) Ducks or Islanders ever did when they entered the league.
One thing I wonder about the 2nd team is history and emotional attachment. Sure, some of these larger markets have the population (and potential wealth) to support a second hockey team, but what about the emotional attachment? How many people in the GTA are willing to switch from being Leaf fans to Toronto II fans? The Leafs have ~100 years worth of history and generations of fans, and even if the population exists I don't know if there would be enough people willing to switch. Look at the challenges the Senators face, and they are in their own market. Toronto II would essentially become an opportunity for the Maple Leafs to play a couple more home games.
One could argue that a lot of the 2 market teams for the 4 major leagues are historical remnants, and that they began in separate leagues and entered the market in a relative similar time frame, although there are exceptions. In this day in age where teams are generating revenue streams from outside the traditional "fans in the stands" (season ticket holders and otherwise), it seems that breaking into an established market would be more difficult. I think Toronto II would have at lot more difficulties establishing a fan base in an established and ingrained Maple Leaf territory than the (Mighty) Ducks or Islanders ever did when they entered the league.
Timing was also part of it, at least with the Isles. People were moving out to the suburbs following WWII. Long Island by that time had their own identity and enough of a population. So, some became Isles fans and their fanbase grew slowly over time. But, you also had people like me. I moved out there when I was 10 (1986) was already a Rangers fan and stayed with the Rangers. Growing up, about 1/2 of my friends who followed hockey were Isles fans, 1/2 were Rangers fans. For the Rangers fans, it was all the same. Their parents grew up Rangers fans in Brooklyn, Queens, etc and they followed after their parents.
I am not that familiar with the LA-Anaheim dynamic. Not sure if Anaheim has their own identity in the same way LI does to NYC. Is there an area in the outskirts of Toronto that has their own identity?
The other thing is what owner would want to be near Toronto? Why would they spend the kind of money necessary just to play 2nd fiddle to the Leafs?
BattleBorn
50% to winning as many division titles as Toronto
The question isn't whether or not they want to play second fiddle, it's whether the Toronto area is valuable enough in their mind for them to spend all the money to get the seat at the table while also being the Toronto NotTheLeafs. It's all about tickets and sponsorships, and it's likely Toronto has enough interest in both to pull an annual profit and generate a decent ROI in a timeframe that's acceptable. Then again, I'm not in a position to throw billions at the idea, so what do I know?
GuelphStormer
Registered User
That is not a guarantee. Some of the issues have been outlined above. Yes, they will get some Leafs fans to convert, they will get some who live in the area and hate the Leafs, and in time will get new fans in the form as kids as they grow up.
GuelphStormer
Registered User
if you are talking about a GTA2 team inside the same arena with the Leafs then yes, of course, MLSE would likely structure that tenancy so as not to maximize the GTA2's venue revenue streams. but frankly, it would be very stupid for a GTA2 franchise to share an MLSE owned venue.
if on the other hand, you are suggesting that a GTA2 team inside their own venue (whether that venue/team be located in Hamilton or KW or 905ville... ) is not guaranteed to be top five, then i respectfully disagree.
Population-wise and hockey consumption-wise; I have to go with Montreal and Toronto. Naturally this doesn’t take into account TV contracts, territorial claims, etc...
I have to believe that not everyone in Montreal, Toronto, and the surrounding areas are fans of the home team. These fans might like an alternative and support a new team in the area.
I know the province of Quebec can support a team in Quebec City, and Ontario might be able to support another team as well.
To me, as someone who has lived in the United States his entire life, the best part of being a fan (besides winning) are the rivalries. Aside from the Bruins - Canadiens rivalry, the best rivalries have always been the Canadian teams. Hockey has such a rich history and lore... the NHL should move heaven and earth to cultivate that. Neutral sports fans love a good storyline with heroes, underdogs, villains, etc. More Canadian teams - if properly hyped - would get neutral fans engaged.
I have to believe that not everyone in Montreal, Toronto, and the surrounding areas are fans of the home team. These fans might like an alternative and support a new team in the area.
I know the province of Quebec can support a team in Quebec City, and Ontario might be able to support another team as well.
To me, as someone who has lived in the United States his entire life, the best part of being a fan (besides winning) are the rivalries. Aside from the Bruins - Canadiens rivalry, the best rivalries have always been the Canadian teams. Hockey has such a rich history and lore... the NHL should move heaven and earth to cultivate that. Neutral sports fans love a good storyline with heroes, underdogs, villains, etc. More Canadian teams - if properly hyped - would get neutral fans engaged.
So. all the Leafs fans currently in that area will just become fans of the new team? Or do you just expect them to be fans of both teams?
Spirit of McMullen
3 since 82
- Apr 19, 2018
- 161
- 43
New York City has 2 professional NFL teams that play in the state of NJ, Giants starting in 1975 and the Jets starting in 1984.
They are NYC teams that happen to play in NJ. They are and always have been NYC teams and will remain so. NJ has 0 NFL teams and they are not like for example, the NJ Devils of the NHL, who play in NJ and were purchased in 1982 and relocated from Denver to specifically represent NJ.
Not sure why people don't understand this concept and mistakenly always say "NYC really has 0 teams", when they have 2, and they happen to play nearby in NJ.
And in keeping with this thread, the Devils, Rangers & Islanders are in closer geographic location with all 3 of each other closer to each team in a straight line, than from downtown Los Angeles to Anaheim as used in an earlier example.
And when original Devils owner John McMullen purchased the Colorado Rockies and moved them to East Rutherford NJ in 1982, he had to pay $12.5 million in territorial infringement payments to both the Rangers, Islanders and even the Flyers. The league considered their being 3 other teams (Rangers, Islanders & Flyers) in what would be considered the NJ Devils new market.
The amount of any territorial indemnity payment right now or in the future for any 2nd or 3rd NHL team will most likely be ridiculously high. But then again, $12.5 million must have also been considered high in 1982 money.
"McMullen paid $12.5 million in territorial indemnities, split among the New York Rangers, New York Islanders and Philadelphia Flyers, to move the franchise to New Jersey because he believed there was room for another NHL team in the New York metropolitan area."
Longtime owner to be first in Devils Ring of Honor
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GuelphStormer
Registered User
some will, some wont. there will be more than enough though to buy seasons and single game tickets, watch on TV, paint their faces, instagram babies in new swag ... to make someone an awful lot of money. southern ontario is a big place with lots of people with cars. no need to worry for us, we'll do ok.
Spirit of McMullen
3 since 82
- Apr 19, 2018
- 161
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And for what it's worth, the Islanders also had to pay a $4 million territory infringement fee to the Rangers in 1972.
"The New York Islanders were born in 1972. In order to join the ranks of the NHL, the Islanders were forced to pay an indemnity fee of a little over $4 million dollars to the Rangers for infringing on the Blueshirts territorial rights."
Rangers vs. Islanders: What The Rivalry Means To Us - FOREVER BLUESHIRTS
"The fledgling Islanders, who were soon nicknamed the "Isles" by the local newspapers, had an extra burden to pay in the form of a $4 million territorial fee to the nearby New York Rangers. "
New York Islanders : Wikis (The Full Wiki)
"The New York Islanders were born in 1972. In order to join the ranks of the NHL, the Islanders were forced to pay an indemnity fee of a little over $4 million dollars to the Rangers for infringing on the Blueshirts territorial rights."
Rangers vs. Islanders: What The Rivalry Means To Us - FOREVER BLUESHIRTS
"The fledgling Islanders, who were soon nicknamed the "Isles" by the local newspapers, had an extra burden to pay in the form of a $4 million territorial fee to the nearby New York Rangers. "
New York Islanders : Wikis (The Full Wiki)
I can see Sothern Ontario as an option, whether it be Hamilton, Kitchener/Waterloo, or Barrie. I think it would work outside of Downtown Toronto, as it would be a different market. Can't see a situation where the team would play out of the ACC.
I don't see anywhere else that this could work.
I don't see anywhere else that this could work.
