Which city has potential to have 2 or more NHL teams
- Thread starter alko
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LT
Global Moderator
- Jul 23, 2010
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This is probably crazy and I suspect I'll be laughed out of this thread, but could Miami potentially support a second team, just theoretically speaking?
An arena is already there in the downtown area (American Airlines Arena). They'd be fairly distant from the Panthers, who are currently located up north in Sunrise. The two arenas and 35 miles apart and draw from relatively different parts of the metro area (BB&T from Ft. Lauderdale and the northern parts of the Miami metro area, while AAA pulls primarily from downtown and the more Miami-proper neighborhoods). This is simply my observations from living here recently and going to a few games at each, along with talking to people who go to each.
Miami is a massive metro area, with over 6M people. It's also growing very rapidly - a little over 10% per decade. I think in terms of population, the city could definitely support a second team. AAA is a great venue with 20K+ seats, easy access via public transportation, and plenty to do nearby.
The main potential issue would be attendance and interest. The Panthers pulled relatively well (~90% and up) regularly when they were in downtown Miami. I actually don't think it would be that bad, but I can imagine that being the perception. If the team were able to have success right off the bat, that could solve a lot of issues.
Just a thought. Try to put away the northern bias for a bit and look at it objectively.
An arena is already there in the downtown area (American Airlines Arena). They'd be fairly distant from the Panthers, who are currently located up north in Sunrise. The two arenas and 35 miles apart and draw from relatively different parts of the metro area (BB&T from Ft. Lauderdale and the northern parts of the Miami metro area, while AAA pulls primarily from downtown and the more Miami-proper neighborhoods). This is simply my observations from living here recently and going to a few games at each, along with talking to people who go to each.
Miami is a massive metro area, with over 6M people. It's also growing very rapidly - a little over 10% per decade. I think in terms of population, the city could definitely support a second team. AAA is a great venue with 20K+ seats, easy access via public transportation, and plenty to do nearby.
The main potential issue would be attendance and interest. The Panthers pulled relatively well (~90% and up) regularly when they were in downtown Miami. I actually don't think it would be that bad, but I can imagine that being the perception. If the team were able to have success right off the bat, that could solve a lot of issues.
Just a thought. Try to put away the northern bias for a bit and look at it objectively.
82Ninety42011
Registered User
Toronto could easily handle another team and probably a 3rd in surrounding area. They are the 4th largest city in NA after all and Canadians love their hockey. Population aside they also have the corporate dollars to support another team. Will they get one no but they could make it work easily.
There's no doubt in my mind Toronto could host a second NHL team; in fact, I think there could be two Toronto teams AND a Hamilton team and all of them (and the Sabres) could be viable. IMO, a second Toronto team would do better than the Islanders, Devils, or Ducks in their respective markets because there are probably more hockey fans in the greater Toronto area than in the greater New York area (and a lot more hockey fans in the Toronto area than in the Los Angeles area).
Whether Montreal could support a second team is more of a toss-up. I'd probably put a team in Quebec City before I put a second team in Montreal, but I wouldn't 100% rule out putting teams in both locations. The combined population there though isn't nearly as big as it is in the Golden Horseshoe.
No other cities in either the U.S. or Canada could support two NHL teams IMO, though I will note the AHL and formerly IHL Chicago Wolves have carved a solid niche for themselves (partly because of the opening Dollar Bill Wirtz provided).
Whether Montreal could support a second team is more of a toss-up. I'd probably put a team in Quebec City before I put a second team in Montreal, but I wouldn't 100% rule out putting teams in both locations. The combined population there though isn't nearly as big as it is in the Golden Horseshoe.
No other cities in either the U.S. or Canada could support two NHL teams IMO, though I will note the AHL and formerly IHL Chicago Wolves have carved a solid niche for themselves (partly because of the opening Dollar Bill Wirtz provided).
Ted Hoffman
The other Rick Zombo
- Dec 15, 2002
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Speaking theoretically? The metro Miami area is just slightly larger than Philadelphia and just slightly smaller than Washington, and I wouldn't say that Philadelphia or Washington could shoulder another team. Baltimore could probably support an NHL team, but I consider it to be separate and distinct from Washington.
If I'm no mistaken, AmericanAirlines Arena is not equipped for hockey. Not only does it have a floor that's too small for a full rink without obstructed seats, like other basketball-first arenas, but I'm pretty sure it's one of the arenas that requires Disney on Ice to use their portable ice plant as it lacks one of its own. Even if it could, the NHL would rather move the Panthers in there than place a second team in the market.
The Heat control AA Arena, ok, think why OKC locked hockey out of Chesepeake Energy Arena, and why Cox Convention Center aka the Myriad REMAINS STANDING..... the other reason has been discussed time and time again, Broward County oversees the BB & T Center, that's why Miami Arena disappeared when it did....
As for the question of an owner for the Toronto team, all it would take is a billionaire owner of a ranked 20-28 net worth ranked team to decide that they want more money by doubling down on the NHL and putting in a few more bucks. Unfortunately billionaire Canadians that want an NHL team are very few in number.
Not my point. My point is that the AA Arena cannot physically host hockey, regardless of ownership, control, etc. It's just not possible to have a hockey game in the building. The floor is too small, and there's no ice making equipment. You would think that after first the Coyotes at the then-America West Arena, and now the Islanders at Barclays Center, people would understand that not all NBA arenas can have a hockey team in them, or at most a minor league team where not all seats are needed.
the Heat control the arena, ok, simple statement, it has nothing to do with an ice plant, the Islanders scenario is not based in fact, the County and the voters rejected a replacement for the Coliseum, same thing in Arizona with TSRA..... IT IS NOT feasible to renovate that arena as it presently stands
GuelphStormer
Registered User
re: miami, no doubt its a big market but putting an NHL team into an NBA arena not originally designed for hockey in a marginal market could only have hope if the same person/company who owns the venue and the NBA franchise also owns the new NHL franchise. as a tenant, it's a non-starter.
indeed, franchises as tenants are increasingly difficult, regardless of strength of market. especially at these new levels of $600M+ valuation, new teams will absolutely require significant venue revenue streams.
indeed, franchises as tenants are increasingly difficult, regardless of strength of market. especially at these new levels of $600M+ valuation, new teams will absolutely require significant venue revenue streams.
Yet, you still can't answer the question about how many fans they would take from the Leafs. There are plenty of baseball fans in the NYC metro area, and certainly enough for 3 teams. Yet, it would be a disaster to put a 3rd team here. Same for football. There are tons and tons of basketball fans in the LA area, why have the Clippers never been put a dent in the Lakers stronghold of the market?
So, they are going to have a 2nd team and rely on immigrants and people in other countries to support? That sounds like a good strategy. The support teams get from overseas fans goes into the pockets of the league as a whole. If a Leafs fan in Germany purchases the NHL package to watch games, that is not going to the Leafs.
GuelphStormer
Registered User
WingsFan95
Registered User
Cost of the teams plays the biggest part in this. NHL is the cheapest of the 4 leagues and by a healthy margin. The NBA has way smaller rosters so the total cost of the team is not as pronounced as the star appeal.
All good stuff but I got to defend the Nets. From 2002 when they made their first Final and Kidd entered the club to the following season losing again in the Final this time in 6 games, I really don't think Knicks as bottom feeders were THE team in the area for ball. Even in the 03-04 season the Nets were riding high and the Knicks were just recovering. I'm not a New Yorker mind you but that area doesn't cough up too much money for losers so outside of corporate the Nets were the hotter ticket at least from 02-04.
Knicks were still the team in NY for Bball. Nets had plenty of bandwagon hoppers for those 2 seasons, but their tickets were never "hot" until they got deep into the play-offs.
The only legit possibility is Toronto. There is plenty of legit reasons why it would never happen, but if an ownership group did come along with ~2 billion dollars to spend on a expansion fee, building an arena (in a place that makes sense, NOT in a suburb like Markham), compensation to the Leafs for encroaching on their territory, and the NHL was actually interested in having an additional team in the GTA, I think it could work.
If it actually happened ~5 years ago I don't think they would have had a ton of issues winning over a decent chunk of the city as it seemed like a significant portion of the Leaf fan base was on the brink of revolt. With the Leafs' current revival though any new team would have to work harder to carve out a fan base.
Well it's not 3 times the population, but your not completely out to lunch.As others have said, the Toronto metro has ~6 million and the Montreal metro has ~4 million, but unlike Montreal, Toronto is surrounded by other large (at least by Canadian standards) CMAs. Once you factor in places like Oshawa, Barrie, Kitchener, Guelph and Hamilton the region has another 2+ million people within ~1 hour of Toronto proper.
Nvm the population, Toronto probably has three times the corporate support then Montreal
To be honest, and it's been a while, but I think when I originally made this post I briefly mentioned something about the corporate base between the two cities, and then inadvertently deleted it when I edited the post. But ya, it would be a important point.
WingsFan95
Registered User
When you look at geographic market, revenue, operating income and debt-value ratio it's Vancouver.
Obviously you have the encroachment fee but the city is the wealthiest in Canada and quite frankly I won't go into all the details of foreign investments but it's ridiculous. Obviously the Grizz spectacular failure in the NBA made the idea of a 2nd team in the area seem foolish but it was basketball which regardless of talent from BC like Steve Nash, it's not really about basketball to a degree of a pro team. Hockey is a completely different story.
Seattle getting a team drains the US market but that shouldn't matter on the Canadian side.
MLSE in Toronto has made it evidently clear another NHL team anywhere near the GTA is never going to happen. London makes the absolute most sense in the province.
I honestly don't think any other city comes close. Too much competition.
Obviously you have the encroachment fee but the city is the wealthiest in Canada and quite frankly I won't go into all the details of foreign investments but it's ridiculous. Obviously the Grizz spectacular failure in the NBA made the idea of a 2nd team in the area seem foolish but it was basketball which regardless of talent from BC like Steve Nash, it's not really about basketball to a degree of a pro team. Hockey is a completely different story.
Seattle getting a team drains the US market but that shouldn't matter on the Canadian side.
MLSE in Toronto has made it evidently clear another NHL team anywhere near the GTA is never going to happen. London makes the absolute most sense in the province.
I honestly don't think any other city comes close. Too much competition.
Ted Hoffman
The other Rick Zombo
- Dec 15, 2002
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So is the real estate bubble that Vancouver has been in for a while now. That's why I don't think "wealth" is the same as "cash" and why a 2nd team in Vancouver is far from a sure thing.
WingsFan95
Registered User
All I know is I pay $50 as a STH for a lot of Raptors games. And those are good upper bowl seats. I know Leafs tickets for same seating are in the $125+ range. Maybe I'm disconnected from general spending habits but $50 for the average price of a STH for a hockey team in Vancouver seems a likely success.
Real estate bubble yes but again there is indeed a lot of cash being moved around. And you know, no other pro team in the region.
Detroit's problem is that a lot of people forgot the 20 year period during which nobody cared about the Red Wings from the 60s-80s and imagined that we had some kind of magic hockey juju instead of typical fairweather fandom extended by an overly long playoff streak. This is reversion to the mean. The good news is that the ~30 year stretch of Wings relevancy created a generation of Michigan-born hockey players and massive amounts of goodwill among (white) Millennials toward the Red Wings, almost rivaling the positive vibes Boomers around here have for the '68 and '84 Tigers. So when the bounce back happens, hopefully timed to coincide with ever more Millennials having kids, it will be a big resurgence.
But two teams was never possible. MAYBE Toronto could hack it. The only other market where it would be feasible, if not successful, would be the Bay Area. But there aren't enough hockey fans to justify plopping a team in Oakland or San Francisco. Chicago could possibly support a second AFC based NFL team, but hockey is out of the question even there and that metro is essentially macro Detroit.
The converts are everywhere.
Whatever company gets the rights either rogers/bell will automatically start converting its customers. Add to that all those folk getting corporate suites and you already have a massive number of people who are engaged.
Add to that there's all those bitter folks(from the allover southern ontario) who are resentful they could never afford tickets to the Leafs.
Then there are the millions of people in the GTA who don't give a dam about history. Either because their family are immigrants, their family never watched hockey, their family is from another part of Canada, or because they hate their dads and want to rebel.
FYI it's hilarious that no one is mentioning the fact that Toronto FC are by far the most highly valued sports teams, in the MLS directly because they exist in such an obvious sports vacuum.
Whatever company gets the rights either rogers/bell will automatically start converting its customers. Add to that all those folk getting corporate suites and you already have a massive number of people who are engaged.
Add to that there's all those bitter folks(from the allover southern ontario) who are resentful they could never afford tickets to the Leafs.
Then there are the millions of people in the GTA who don't give a dam about history. Either because their family are immigrants, their family never watched hockey, their family is from another part of Canada, or because they hate their dads and want to rebel.
FYI it's hilarious that no one is mentioning the fact that Toronto FC are by far the most highly valued sports teams, in the MLS directly because they exist in such an obvious sports vacuum.
BKIslandersFan
F*** off
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