Which city has potential to have 2 or more NHL teams

[alko]

New York has 3 (also with New Jersey). There isnt any room.

Los Angeles: There are Kings. And there are the Ducks. It is still the same city?

Many words were written about second Toronto team. There is a potential, thats for sure. Any other big city?

Chicago
Detroit
Montreal

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[OG6ix]

I don't really think a second team in Toronto would work. This is a leafs city when it comes to hockey and unlike other Canadian cities we have teams in other Major Leagues. The landscape has changed a lot; if this was the 80s I'd say it would work... now... the entertainment dollars are spread pretty thin.

 

[Gold Standard]

I don't really think a second team in Toronto would work. This is a leafs city when it comes to hockey and unlike other Canadian cities we have teams in other Major Leagues. The landscape has changed a lot; if this was the 80s I'd say it would work... now... the entertainment dollars are spread pretty thin.

I think it could work, not ideal, but a 2nd. team in SW Ontario (Hamilton) would definitely work. If only I were a multi billionaire with nothing to do in my retirement but play fantasy GM with a real life NHL team.

 

[Gil Gunderson]

GTA is the only one right now.

 

[patnyrnyg]

I don't really think a second team in Toronto would work. This is a leafs city when it comes to hockey and unlike other Canadian cities we have teams in other Major Leagues. The landscape has changed a lot; if this was the 80s I'd say it would work... now... the entertainment dollars are spread pretty thin.

I have been to Toronto 4 times in the last 12 years for games. I would agree it is a Leafs city. However, have also met many other people from Toronto who hate the Leafs. BUT, that does not mean they would immediately become a fan of a new Toronto team.

I don't think any other city could support a 2nd team. NYC--Long Island is a different animal. Rangers-Islanders is not like Mets-Yanks or Giants-Jets. If you have never been to the area, do not let the map fool you. It may be only ~25 miles away, but feel free to drive from MSG to Nassau Coliseum (or vice-versa) for a weeknight game. Let us know how it goes.

The Islanders were meant to be a suburban team for Nassau and Suffolk counties. They have some fans in NYC, but not many. The Rangers always drew from Long Island due to 2 reasons. 1) people who grew up in NYC and were already Rangers fans when they moved out to LI or 2) People (or their father's/grandfather's) were Rangers fans when the Isles started and they stuck with the Rangers.

I can't comment first hand on the Ducks-Kings, but from what I have been lead to believe, it is a similar situation.

As for other cities, in Chicago, they would not just be competing with the Blackhawks. They are also competing with the Bulls, Bears, White Sox, and Cubs for attention and $. Most people do not have the money or time to have some kind of season package for 1 team per sport. Most of the larger American cities, a 2nd team would be dealing with the same scenario.

 

[No Fun Shogun]

Chicago has two-team potential for the NFL and NBA, as I absolutely believe second fiddles in those sports would at least still be profitable here (especially if said teams were slated in the AFC for football and the western conference for basketball). NHL, though? Ehhhh.... I see us as a 1.5 teams market at most in the NHL. Think the market is mostly satiated as a combo NHL/AHL market, so nah.

Detroit? Nah. They're already having issues now that the golden age is over in a big way, so we can safely cross them off on the possible two-team market list.

Montreal is interesting, and I might say maybe, but the cost of moving in would probably be so prohibitive with the inclusion of an indemnity to the Habs that I don't think that an avenue for profitability would be there for a second team.

Toronto? Honestly, my only question isn't if they could sustain two teams, but if they could sustain three teams. A second team would absolutely work in the GTA even taking into account the aforementioned territoriality indemnity.

Any other good market, like Boston or Philly? Just not sure there's a substantial enough hockey fandom not satiated by their current teams, so nah.

So really, that just leaves Toronto in my book.

 

[Barclay Donaldson]

Toronto would be the only place remotely possible. And even then it's still a much more unlikely than likely.

Anaheim is just outside of LA and they share the market pretty well. There certainly isn't room for another team considering that the entire metro area has two NBA teams, two NFL teams, two MLB teams, and a host of minor league teams. Their entire sports entertainment market in general might be tapped out, let alone the NHL.

Chicago doesn't have a chance either. Sports market is pretty filled up there as well. There's enough to have a well supported AHL team in the Wolves, but there's a massive difference between that and having enough to prop up another NHL team.

Detroit is losing interest in the Wings at a fast rate now that their 20 year renaissance is over. Another NHL team? Not even remotely possible, even during their peak years.

Montreal used to have the Maroons for the English-speakers in the city, but that was over 100 years ago. The language lines have been blurred since then and it's very much a Canadiens city like others have pointed out with Leafs in Toronto. Lower level hockey teams have failed early and often when operating within the metro area. A second one isn't remotely possible.

The Greater Toronto area might be able to support a team if the logistics were spot on. Hamilton has come close to getting one. Waxham was rumored to be the location of a NHL-caliber arena. Overall I see it as being much less likely than likely. Lower level teams have failed or struggled to draw in the metro area because the Leafs are king in the market. Opening up another NHL team and expecting it to be a hit is probably a foolish endeavor.

 

[cheswick]

Could be argued there is more potential in Montreal than Toronto given Toronto has MLB and NBA teams in the market.

 

[BKIslandersFan]

Could be argued there is more potential in Montreal than Toronto given Toronto has MLB and NBA teams in the market.

GTA also has about 3 times the population.

 

[Centrum Hockey]

Toronto would be the only place remotely possible. And even then it's still a much more unlikely than likely.

Anaheim is just outside of LA and they share the market pretty well. There certainly isn't room for another team considering that the entire metro area has two NBA teams, two NFL teams, two MLB teams, and a host of minor league teams. Their entire sports entertainment market in general might be tapped out, let alone the NHL.

Chicago doesn't have a chance either. Sports market is pretty filled up there as well. There's enough to have a well supported AHL team in the Wolves, but there's a massive difference between that and having enough to prop up another NHL team.

Detroit is losing interest in the Wings at a fast rate now that their 20 year renaissance is over. Another NHL team? Not even remotely possible, even during their peak years.

Montreal used to have the Maroons for the English-speakers in the city, but that was over 100 years ago. The language lines have been blurred since then and it's very much a Canadiens city like others have pointed out with Leafs in Toronto. Lower level hockey teams have failed early and often when operating within the metro area. A second one isn't remotely possible.

The Greater Toronto area might be able to support a team if the logistics were spot on. Hamilton has come close to getting one. Waxham was rumored to be the location of a NHL-caliber arena. Overall I see it as being much less likely than likely. Lower level teams have failed or struggled to draw in the metro area because the Leafs are king in the market. Opening up another NHL team and expecting it to be a hit is probably a foolish endeavor.

Detroit’s problem is that during their golden years they played in a older fan centric arena when they built the new arena they jacked up the prices and forgot what made the wings such a success they should have looked at the New Yankee stadium to learn what not to do.

 

[BattleBorn]

I only see Southern Ontario as an option. I definitely think it would be a Lakers/Clippers situation where one team (The Leafs) is obviously the premier team, but there's another option. If they actually locate it in Toronto and vicinity (versus Hamilton) I could see it being a Chicago Cubs/White Sox situation where one team is definitely more prestigious, but the "blue collar" team (the Sox in this example) holds their own. Cubs/Sox definitely has the benefit of established history and the former AL/NL split over the year, which wouldn't exist in Toronto.

There's no doubt in my mind that Toronto/GTA could work if a potential owner has got the dough to get into the game.

 

[cheswick]

GTA also has about 3 times the population.

Umm not even close. Greater Toronto has just under 6million people. Greater Montreal has just over 4. (2016 census).

 

[CHRDANHUTCH]

I only see Southern Ontario as an option. I definitely think it would be a Lakers/Clippers situation where one team (The Leafs) is obviously the premier team, but there's another option. If they actually locate it in Toronto and vicinity (versus Hamilton) I could see it being a Chicago Cubs/White Sox situation where one team is definitely more prestigious, but the "blue collar" team (the Sox in this example) holds their own. Cubs/Sox definitely has the benefit of established history and the former AL/NL split over the year, which wouldn't exist in Toronto.

There's no doubt in my mind that Toronto/GTA could work if a potential owner has got the dough to get into the game.

the only issue is doesn't MLSE kinda control the GTA, IE Raptors 905 being in Mississauga?

 

[BattleBorn]

the only issue is doesn't MLSE kinda control the GTA, IE Raptors 905 being in Mississauga?

For sure, they've got that 50 mile territory and whoever would enter the market would have to pay the cost for a seat at the BoG table (you'd have to guess at least $600MM) then they'd have to pay for an arena that would then compete with Scotiabank, then they'd have to figure out how to pay MLSE to infringe on the territory.

All in, you're probably in a little under two billion US in my rough estimation. Perhaps $1.5 if they can figure out how to build an arena in GTA for a reasonable amount. I don't know anything about Toronto construction and property prices, but looking from the outside with no real knowledge it doesn't seem like an inexpensive place to do something like that.

The Leafs are valued at $1.45B US according to Forbes and making $94MM annually. If someone's got that kind of money to just throw around and really thinks they can make it work, I don't see a second team as too crazy based on the Leafs' valuation and profits. It's pretty crazy though, and there's not a whole ton of billionaires out there willing to dump billions into something that isn't really liquid and will likely take decades to shake out a return.

 

[BKIslandersFan]

Umm not even close. Greater Toronto has just under 6million people. Greater Montreal has just over 4. (2016 census).

Thought Greater Montreal Area has 2M.

 

[BattleBorn]

Thought Greater Montreal Area has 2M.

Montreal and Laval are around 2M. Metro Montreal is 4M.

Almost always better to use metro population when discussing things like teams since, theoretically, games are something people should be willing to drive across town to attend and city limits are fairly meaningless and drawn based on things other than proximity/transportation/employment trends.

I take it out even further and say if you're driving to a city to take a flight from an airport you should get included in the population of that city wrt sports, but there's no way to easily find that info.

 

[cheswick]

Thought Greater Montreal Area has 2M.

The island of Montreal has 2 million on it's own. The Montreal CMA is over 4 million.

So when looking at the big 4 major leagues, Toronto has one team per 2 million residents while Montreal currently has one per 4 million. Equalizes things a little if you include MLS and CFL of which both cities have teams. Then Toronto is only slightly better served than Montreal.

 

[Mightygoose]

Toronto/GTA is the only place. Can't see the perfect storm happening that created the other multi-team market's happening.

 

[ForumNamePending]

The only legit possibility is Toronto. There is plenty of legit reasons why it would never happen, but if an ownership group did come along with ~2 billion dollars to spend on a expansion fee, building an arena (in a place that makes sense, NOT in a suburb like Markham), compensation to the Leafs for encroaching on their territory, and the NHL was actually interested in having an additional team in the GTA, I think it could work.

If it actually happened ~5 years ago I don't think they would have had a ton of issues winning over a decent chunk of the city as it seemed like a significant portion of the Leaf fan base was on the brink of revolt. With the Leafs' current revival though any new team would have to work harder to carve out a fan base.

GTA also has about 3 times the population.

Well it's not 3 times the population, but your not completely out to lunch. As others have said, the Toronto metro has ~6 million and the Montreal metro has ~4 million, but unlike Montreal, Toronto is surrounded by other large (at least by Canadian standards) CMAs. Once you factor in places like Oshawa, Barrie, Kitchener, Guelph and Hamilton the region has another 2+ million people within ~1 hour of Toronto proper.

 

[Ahoy there]

Chicago has two-team potential for the NFL and NBA, as I absolutely believe second fiddles in those sports would at least still be profitable here (especially if said teams were slated in the AFC for football and the western conference for basketball). NHL, though? Ehhhh.... I see us as a 1.5 teams market at most in the NHL. Think the market is mostly satiated as a combo NHL/AHL market, so nah.

Detroit? Nah. They're already having issues now that the golden age is over in a big way, so we can safely cross them off on the possible two-team market list.

Montreal is interesting, and I might say maybe, but the cost of moving in would probably be so prohibitive with the inclusion of an indemnity to the Habs that I don't think that an avenue for profitability would be there for a second team.

Toronto? Honestly, my only question isn't if they could sustain two teams, but if they could sustain three teams. A second team would absolutely work in the GTA even taking into account the aforementioned territoriality indemnity.

Any other good market, like Boston or Philly? Just not sure there's a substantial enough hockey fandom not satiated by their current teams, so nah.

So really, that just leaves Toronto in my book.

another team in Chitown would be a clank off the upright imo (too soon?)

 

[Barclay Donaldson]

Detroit’s problem is that during their golden years they played in a older fan centric arena when they built the new arena they jacked up the prices and forgot what made the wings such a success they should have looked at the New Yankee stadium to learn what not to do.

I mean, that is a factor but the team is enormously less successful. Their new arena doesn't have anything to do with their TV ratings drop. The enormous decline in number of kids playing hockey in Michigan probably isn't affected by the longing of the Joe Louis Arena. Their paid attendance has dropped off marginally, but people aren't in those seats during the game. The high paid attendance to low turnstile count most certainly has less to do with the new arena and more to do with the team's on-ice performances.

Regardless, Metro Detroit isn't capable of supporting another NHL team.

 

[tony d]

Toronto for me as well.

 

[garbageteam]

The only legit possibility is Toronto. There is plenty of legit reasons why it would never happen, but if an ownership group did come along with ~2 billion dollars to spend on a expansion fee, building an arena (in a place that makes sense, NOT in a suburb like Markham), compensation to the Leafs for encroaching on their territory, and the NHL was actually interested in having an additional team in the GTA, I think it could work.

If it actually happened ~5 years ago I don't think they would have had a ton of issues winning over a decent chunk of the city as it seemed like a significant portion of the Leaf fan base was on the brink of revolt. With the Leafs' current revival though any new team would have to work harder to carve out a fan base.



Well it's not 3 times the population, but your not completely out to lunch. As others have said, the Toronto metro has ~6 million and the Montreal metro has ~4 million, but unlike Montreal, Toronto is surrounded by other large (at least by Canadian standards) CMAs. Once you factor in places like Oshawa, Barrie, Kitchener, Guelph and Hamilton the region has another 2+ million people within ~1 hour of Toronto proper.

The Greater Golden Horseshoe region has over 9 million people, many of whom are hockey-mad consumers of the product. Toronto is usually underrepresented by how Canada does its census statistics vs. the USA but is in fact a top 5 city in North America, and I'm including Mexico City in there. Sure, there are four other teams to draw eyeballs from, but both the market demographics and sheer population numbers absolutely support a second team. I just don't think it will ever happen.

 

[ForumNamePending]

Ya, the way Canada and the US define metro areas is different. Generally the area defined in Canadian CMAs is much smaller than American MSAs.

Officially on paper metro Toronto has a population similar to metro Atlanta or Miami, but in reality the Toronto market is much more comparable in population to "Chicagoland".

 

[Ernie]

I'm actually surprised there isn't already a 2nd team in the Toronto area. They could pay a massive expansion fee AND would likely also chip in significantly with revenue sharing, so it would be a win for all the other teams.

It's an underserved market. If TSN & Sportsnet were smart they'd make this happen, co-own the stadium but compete against each other with their own teams.