When this tree fell in the forest, who noticed? (CBA & Lockout Discussion)- Part V

[LadyStanley]

Wait a second. Isn't that what the league tried to do last November and again in January? Negotiate and play at the same time and the PA said no? So it's OK when they do it, but not when the league does it?

And when the NHLPA said they were ready to negotiate in May/June, NHL said they had playoffs to finish, an awards ceremony to handle and the draft.....

That is pretty neat that someone gave you a call. Did you send it to the team's email? Also, when they said "share" did they give any other specifics? Obviously I understand if you cannot answer too much just curious.

Nope. Typed out a letter, put it in an envelope and mailed it off. Sure it's $0.45 to US addresses (and $0.85 to Canada -- had to get special stamps as the denomination -- $$ amount -- has to be on it -- can't use "Forever" stamps), but it's a physical thing that has to be dealt with.

I know someone mentioned it earlier in the thread, is it true that under the CBA the players legally aren't allowed to lock out? I'm not well versed in the specifics of all this.

Unions strike. Leagues/owners lock out.

Semantics.

(And under the past few CBAs, both sides have been prohibited from taking labor actions/stoppages during the "life" of the CBA. They had to wait until it expired to do so.)

 

[JAX]

I have to admit the more the players speak the more I'm apathetic to the whole situation. It is like politics where it is all about PR pandering and not getting down to working things out together. How can either side talk about wanting to negotiate in "good faith" after some of their comments?

I especially like Zetterbergs comments on how they can't bargain with themselves...why not? since the PA has basically refused to negotiate with the league they might as well bargain with themselves.

 

[NYRKING30]

The CBA originally had an expiration date of 9/15/2011. The NHLPA had a unilateral option to extend it a year which they exercised last year. After that point, either party could terminate the CBA with 120 day notice (before 9/15/2012), which the NHL did.

Even now, the NHL could technically lift the lockout and play under the terms of the expired CBA - under US & Canadian labor law, the terms of an expired CBA are deemed to be in force until replaced by a new CBA (or the union decertifies). However, in that case, nothing would prohibit the NHLPA from striking (or the NHL reinstating the lockout) later - including during the season.

Thanks for the clarification for some reason i thought i remember some owners around playoff time saying that which is why i thought it was the other way around. Makes sense now.

 

[Beef Invictus]

The players vote on proposals before Fehr presents them, right?

What is the quorum for those votes, and does it require a simple majority? Quorum at 3/4 of players?

 

[Tra La La]

The players vote on proposals before Fehr presents them, right?

What is the quorum for those votes, and does it require a simple majority? 3/4 of players?

Players will only vote if a proposal is agreed to by both bargaining committees. Then the committees for both sides take them to their constituents for votes.

 

[Boltsfan2029]

And when the NHLPA said they were ready to negotiate in May/June, NHL said they had playoffs to finish, an awards ceremony to handle and the draft.....

What were the reasons, other than "Mr. Fehr needs to learn the business," for the PA refusing in November and January? Honest question, that's the only reason I've heard so far, but I don't pretend to have read every article or heard every interview out there.

But there you go. It's clearly an acceptable tactic for both sides, so the PA should stop trying to use it as a weapon against the league in their PR war. Goose/gander. Pot/kettle.

If they'd use half as much energy negotiating than whining about the other side, we'd be a lot closer to getting a deal done.

 

[Boltsfan2029]

Players will only vote if a proposal is agreed to by both bargaining committees. Then the committees for both sides take them to their constituents for votes.

But it was reported that Fehr asked the players if they wanted him to present a proposal and they said no. That implies that there is some method of approving any presentation being made to the league.

 

[Ari91]

And when the NHLPA said they were ready to negotiate in May/June, NHL said they had playoffs to finish, an awards ceremony to handle and the draft.....



Nope. Typed out a letter, put it in an envelope and mailed it off. Sure it's $0.45 to US addresses (and $0.85 to Canada -- had to get special stamps as the denomination -- $$ amount -- has to be on it -- can't use "Forever" stamps), but it's a physical thing that has to be dealt with.



Unions strike. Leagues/owners lock out.

Semantics.

(And under the past few CBAs, both sides have been prohibited from taking labor actions/stoppages during the "life" of the CBA. They had to wait until it expired to do so.)

I believe the point is that the PA are using this tactic now for PR reasons but the reality is that they were given this very same option several times before the summer and declined. It comes across as disingenuous. They're slinging mud at the league for not allowing them to play and negotiate but it apparently it was perfectly fine for them to use that option against the league for their own leverage. But of course they don't mention that. I'm tired of the double speak out of their mouth. I've said before, they could easily avoid this if they kept their mouth shut or at least allow Fehr to do all the double speaking.

And congrats on getting a response. Great dedication on your part.

 

[Boltsfan2029]

I believe the point is that the PA are using this tactic now for PR reasons but the reality is that they were given this very same option several times before the summer and declined. It comes across as disingenuous. They're slinging mud at the league for not allowing them to play and negotiate but it apparently it was perfectly fine for them to use that option against the league for their own leverage. But of course they don't mention that. I'm tired of the double speak out of their mouth. I've said before, they could easily avoid this if they kept their mouth shut or at least allow Fehr to do all the double speaking.

That was exactly the point, thanks.

 

[kdb209]

The players vote on proposals before Fehr presents them, right?

Nope. It's up to Fehr and the NHLPA Negotiating Committee - the Executive Director (Fehr), the NHLPA General Counsel (Fehr's brother Steve) and other members appointed by the Executive Board (made up of the 30 team player reps).

The Negotiating Committee reports status back to and consults with the Executive Board, but does not require Executive Board (or other player) approval before making offers.

 

[Taro Tsujimoto]

This just keeps getting more and more frustrating every day. Having three separate lockouts in a span of less than 20 years is simply unacceptable. Bettman and Fehr seriously need to be locked in a room and be told that they won't be allowed out until they an agree to a deal.

 

[MetalGodAOD*]

I might be the only one who's cautiously optimistic. I see the owners starting to fragment - the reports coming out they are afraid Fehr will reject a 50/50 offer, that they realized it was a mistake to come in so low and that it just galvanized the players, etc. If both sides can start fresh and not let their egos get in the way, maybe we can start by Thanksgiving. It certainly sounds like there's a division of the owners who want to settle sooner than later.. the challenge comes in getting them to push it as the NHL's actual proposal, and then the PA smartening up and accepting a moderate proposal if actually given.

 

[wilty00]

Unions strike. Leagues/owners lock out.

Semantics.

You're right, you're right. Not sure why I said lock out.

So if the NHL had caved and agreed to let them play and negotiate at the same time it would be illegal for the players to stage a strike at the end of the regular season before playoffs ala MLB, right?

Edit: Also lovin' this Walsh/Dreger exchange on twitter. Walsh is a blowhard.

 

[SJeasy]

The CBA originally had an expiration date of 9/15/2011. The NHLPA had a unilateral option to extend it a year which they exercised last year. After that point, either party could terminate the CBA with 120 day notice (before 9/15/2012), which the NHL did.

Even now, the NHL could technically lift the lockout and play under the terms of the expired CBA - under US & Canadian labor law, the terms of an expired CBA are deemed to be in force until replaced by a new CBA (or the union decertifies). However, in that case, nothing would prohibit the NHLPA from striking (or the NHL reinstating the lockout) later - including during the season.

Is it possible to extend under terms and sign a separate PA/NHL agreement that invokes a no strike/no lockout provision in increments while they are playing under the expired CBA? Or, is that option out the window due to enforceability?

 

[Flyerfan808]

So to clarify, once it gets passed the Winter Classic area of dates, and nothing has been worked out, it's no longer plausible or worthwhile to try to salvage a "mini-season", and they will just call the whole season off?

If they can't work a deal out in a WHOLE year, what will make a second lost season any more urgent? Everyone involved loses money on the daily, not the season-ly.

You make a fair arguement, In my opinion the reason has to do with the human element - the fans. It's hard to make people care as much about a shortened season. Enivitably, the longer the lockout lasts, the more fans will be driven away from the game. The Winter Classic Serves is a good half-way datum point for fans and an excellent way for the NHL to re-market the game and grant some legitimacy to the start of the shortened season.

Everyone has their tipping point. Personally, if the lockout was to last beyond the WC, I'd find it really hard to convince myself that this season is worth paying money for. The whole thing would feel like a half-assed attempt, and furthermore I'd feel like whoever won the cup that year (even if it was my own) wouldn't mean as much as winning it from a full season.

Think what you want on that, it's just my opinion. I think this is one example where people's perceptions trump the economics.

 

[surixon]

You're right, you're right. Not sure why I said lock out.

So if the NHL had caved and agreed to let them play and negotiate at the same time it would be illegal for the players to stage a strike at the end of the regular season before playoffs ala MLB, right?

Edit: Also lovin' this Walsh/Dreger exchange on twitter. Walsh is a blowhard.

Updates please!

 

[Ari91]

You're right, you're right. Not sure why I said lock out.

So if the NHL had caved and agreed to let them play and negotiate at the same time it would be illegal for the players to stage a strike at the end of the regular season before playoffs ala MLB, right?

Edit: Also lovin' this Walsh/Dreger exchange on twitter. Walsh is a blowhard.

If a temporary one year CBA was introduced and it was stipulated that they cannot strike, then yes, it would be illegal for the players to strike. If they simply play and negotiate with no CBA in place to hold them over while negotiations are going on, then the players can strike.

I suspect this is why the league approached the union a year ago to start discussions - they knew that they would not extend the current CBA no matter and therefore it was either a new CBA or a lockout.

 

[wilty00]

updates please!

allan walsh ‏@walsha

it's become perfectly clear that gary bettman cannot continue in his position. It's time for a new commissioner.

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darren dreger ‏@darrendreger

@walsha. Pour a glass of red and chill allan. Way too early for the drama you're promoting.

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allan walsh ‏@walsha

sorry i've been offending your close friends on twitter. Pre-season and 2 weeks of season gone, that's late enough for me. @darrendreger

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@jsportsnet: @walsha @darrendreger now,now boys. Let's all get along.

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darren dreger ‏@darrendreger

@jsportsnet @walsha. Hey, i can keep this up all night, but, it's pointless rambling.

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allan walsh ‏@walsha

@darrendreger@jsportsnet you mean "uninformed rambling"...oh wait, it was bill daly who said that.

 

[MacOfNiagara]

owners starting to fragment - the reports coming out . . . that they realized it was a mistake to come in so low and that it just galvanized the players

Where was that reported?

 

[LadyStanley]

Nope. It's up to Fehr and the NHLPA Negotiating Committee - the Executive Director (Fehr), the NHLPA General Counsel (Fehr's brother Steve) and other members appointed by the Executive Board (made up of the 30 team player reps).

Kinda.

There's the ED, GC, EB (made up of 30 player reps). There's also the negotiating committee (does not mean that the participant is ALSO one of the 30 player reps, nor the alternate).

In the Sharks case, the Player rep is Burns, Alternate is Wingels. Negotiating committee member is Murray.

But some may do both.

 

[surixon]

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Walsh should be thanking Gary for making him and his clients a pile of money. You would also think an agent would be smart enough to keep his mouth shut.

 

[kdb209]

Is it possible to extend under terms and sign a separate PA/NHL agreement that invokes a no strike/no lockout provision in increments while they are playing under the expired CBA? Or, is that option out the window due to enforceability?

Both the NHL & NHLPA could sign legally binding agreements to not Strike or Lockout for the duration of the season & playoffs, but the NHL would not agree to those terms - the NHLPA would be happy to play another year under the presumably more favorable terms of the old CBA and would have no incentive to negotiate and a year from now we would be exactly where we are now (only with another year of losses for the majority of Clubs with the even higher cap/Players Share). The threat (and now reality) of a Lockout is the NHL's main leverage - it would be foolish to give that up.

 

[Crows*]

Yes!! Finally dreger rips Alan Walsh a new hole!

 

[JAX]

Where was that reported?

I'm thinking it wasn't.....

 

[Marc the Habs Fan]

You forgot this one:

Darren Dreger ‏@DarrenDreger
@walsha. Nonsense. Stop pontificating and start presenting solutions.