When this tree fell in the forest, who noticed? (CBA & Lockout Discussion)- Part V

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BLONG7

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My current stance (which changes often) is this: If it's true that Bettman wanted to start negotiating in November 2011 and Fehr refused, I am now fully on the side of Bettman and the owners.
Fehr did refuse...it's unfortunate...my stance at times can change also, but at the end of the day both sides are at fault, and both sides need each other...

There is no Win here, only a loss if this continues...and the fans are spit on, again....:shakehead
 

TCsmyth

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Mar 25, 2011
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Anybody else here think that Don Fehr is intellectually dishonest with this whole "we would have played - this is a lockout of choice" stuff?

Anyone involved in a time limited contract with a window of one side has to inform the other side they are not renewing under the same terms, knows that when the NHL informed them of this - they needed a new agreement.

The agreement expired on Sep 15, 2012. The NHLPA knew in 2011 the CBA would not be renewed under current terms (which by the way - they could have informed that they didn't want to renew either). The NHL asked the players numerous times to negotiate while they were playing - they chose not to.

Don Fehr wanted this to be pushed to the brink at best - he welcomed a lockout at worst. For him to continue to allow the players to spout the "we should be playing and negotiating" line is nonsense.
 

Mike Jones

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Anybody else here think that Don Fehr is intellectually dishonest with this whole "we would have played - this is a lockout of choice" stuff?

"Intellectually dishonest" seems a little harsh but I would say that there are definitely hints that he is strategically challenged. Playing while negotiating is an obvious move to set up a strike if things don't go the players' way later in the season. He should know by now that just about all of us see this move coming and that includes the league owners.

I still can't figure out why, if the players feel so strongly about playing this season, Fehr doesn't just focus his energies on making a deal.
 

Mike Jones

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He does a call-in talk show for an hour each week during the season.
You can call in and vent on the commissioner, as long as you're not an ass about it.

Has any other leader of any professional sports league done anything remotely similar?

I don't understand why he doesn't get any credit for that.

This is good but it still doesn't mean he likes or understands the game. He's doing his job - that's all.
 

Mike Jones

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NHL has proposed taking away the NHLPA's right to reject such things (first and second proposals, IIRC).

Instead of freezing the players out completely on this issue the league could meet them halfway and consult them on any proposed moves. The players would no longer be able to reject reallignment but they could still have their say and offer an opinion.
 

Harry22

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My revised CBA proposal:

8 years. Expiring September 15th, 2020.

No definition change in hockey related revenues (HRR) from the previous CBA.

2012-2013: 57%-43% in favor of players.
2013-2014: 55%-45% in favor of players.
2014-2015: 53%-47% in favor of players.
2015-2016: 52%-48% in favor of players.
2016-2017: 51%-49% in favor of players.
2017-2018 to 2019-2020: 50%-50%

Salary Cap Ceiling: A team may pass the salary cap ceiling by 10% in the summer months (July 1st to September 15th) with no penalty.

From 2017-2018 to 2019-2020, a team may pass the salary cap ceiling by 15% and must pay a luxury tax equivalent to 1$ per every 1$ over. That money will go into the new revenue sharing program.

Salary Cap Floor: From 2012-2013 to 2016-2017, 50% of salary cap ceiling.

From 2017-2018 to 2019-2020, 65% of salary cap ceiling.

Contracts:

- All NHL contracts remain guaranteed.
- Term limit of 7 years in any non entry-level contract.
- NHL Entry-Level contracts will consist of 4 years with a maximum of $1M per season. (excluding bonuses)
- Each year on any NHL contracts will have the same money figure. (i.e If a player signs a 5 years, $35M contract, he will receive $7M in every season. (excluding bonuses)

Unrestricted Free-Agency:

A player can become a UFA if he adheres to one of the following criteria.

A) Has played a minimum of 7 seasons in the NHL.
B) Is aged of 28 years or older by July 1st of any year.

Revenue Sharing:

The top 10 earning teams will have to give the bottom 10 earning teams a combine $250M per season.

The bottom 5 teams will each receive 20% of the luxury tax from 2017-2018 to 2019-2020.
 

Hockey Crazy

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My revised CBA proposal:

8 years. Expiring September 15th, 2020.

No definition change in hockey related revenues (HRR) from the previous CBA.

2012-2013: 57%-43% in favor of players.
2013-2014: 55%-45% in favor of players.
2014-2015: 53%-47% in favor of players.
2015-2016: 52%-48% in favor of players.
2016-2017: 51%-49% in favor of players.
2017-2018 to 2019-2020: 50%-50%

Salary Cap Ceiling: A team may pass the salary cap ceiling by 10% in the summer months (July 1st to September 15th) with no penalty.

From 2017-2018 to 2019-2020, a team may pass the salary cap ceiling by 15% and must pay a luxury tax equivalent to 1$ per every 1$ over. That money will go into the new revenue sharing program.

Salary Cap Floor: From 2012-2013 to 2016-2017, 50% of salary cap ceiling.

From 2017-2018 to 2019-2020, 65% of salary cap ceiling.

Contracts:

- All NHL contracts remain guaranteed.
- Term limit of 7 years in any non entry-level contract.
- NHL Entry-Level contracts will consist of 4 years with a maximum of $1M per season. (excluding bonuses)
- Each year on any NHL contracts will have the same money figure. (i.e If a player signs a 5 years, $35M contract, he will receive $7M in every season. (excluding bonuses)

Unrestricted Free-Agency:

A player can become a UFA if he adheres to one of the following criteria.

A) Has played a minimum of 7 seasons in the NHL.
B) Is aged of 28 years or older by July 1st of any year.

Revenue Sharing:

The top 10 earning teams will have to give the bottom 10 earning teams a combine $250M per season.

The bottom 5 teams will each receive 20% of the luxury tax from 2017-2018 to 2019-2020.


This is whatt he final deal should look like. It's so obvious, but both sides can't seem to get to that point, which is frustrating.

Isn't $250 MIL pretty steep? I'm pretty sure that the top 10 teams didn't even make that much last season.
 

Dado

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The players would no longer be able to reject reallignment but they could still have their say and offer an opinion.

If player income is going to be tied to HRR, then they have every right to insist on a voice in matters that affect HRR significantly. Realignment, relocation and expansion are examples of issues that qualify.
 

Killion

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Feb 19, 2010
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Instead of freezing the players out completely on this issue the league could meet them halfway and consult them on any proposed moves. The players would no longer be able to reject reallignment but they could still have their say and offer an opinion.

... unfortunately your premise assumes that the NHL is a magnanimous & labour friendly employer, that a real "partnership" actually exists beyond the platitudes & niceties voiced by Gary Bettman, any given member of the BOG's. We saw what happened when not long ago realignment was proposed, how the league handled the PA's objection. Any opinion expressed by the NHLPA would simply be indulged, patronized, the league having already decided and thats it. This attitude extends to and includes relocation, expansion, contraction, any and all fundamental issues that NHL as a business, the rights of determination will not share with its employee's, all of whom are simply highly paid seasonal, temporary & disposable workers. Average career length being what, about 4.5yrs?
 

buggs

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My revised CBA proposal:

8 years. Expiring September 15th, 2020.

No definition change in hockey related revenues (HRR) from the previous CBA.

2012-2013: 57%-43% in favor of players.
2013-2014: 55%-45% in favor of players.
2014-2015: 53%-47% in favor of players.
2015-2016: 52%-48% in favor of players.
2016-2017: 51%-49% in favor of players.
2017-2018 to 2019-2020: 50%-50%

Salary Cap Ceiling: A team may pass the salary cap ceiling by 10% in the summer months (July 1st to September 15th) with no penalty.

From 2017-2018 to 2019-2020, a team may pass the salary cap ceiling by 15% and must pay a luxury tax equivalent to 1$ per every 1$ over. That money will go into the new revenue sharing program.

Salary Cap Floor: From 2012-2013 to 2016-2017, 50% of salary cap ceiling.

From 2017-2018 to 2019-2020, 65% of salary cap ceiling.

Contracts:

- All NHL contracts remain guaranteed.
- Term limit of 7 years in any non entry-level contract.
- NHL Entry-Level contracts will consist of 4 years with a maximum of $1M per season. (excluding bonuses)
- Each year on any NHL contracts will have the same money figure. (i.e If a player signs a 5 years, $35M contract, he will receive $7M in every season. (excluding bonuses)

Unrestricted Free-Agency:

A player can become a UFA if he adheres to one of the following criteria.

A) Has played a minimum of 7 seasons in the NHL.
B) Is aged of 28 years or older by July 1st of any year.

Revenue Sharing:

The top 10 earning teams will have to give the bottom 10 earning teams a combine $250M per season.

The bottom 5 teams will each receive 20% of the luxury tax from 2017-2018 to 2019-2020.

No cap floor or reduce the percentage of the cap. Too many guys not worth the dollars they are being paid because the team has to meet the floor.

Revenue sharing total is too high. Set it at $200 million and not specify the number of teams on either end. Create a reasonable thought out formula that qualifies teams on either end. I'd suggest putting a time limit on the ability to collect from the revenue sharing pot as well - the league needs to recognize that a location isn't viable at some point rather than having Toronto floating someone else's boat forever. Same limitation on the luxury tax. You can only be the poor cousin for so long.

I think the NHLPA would scream bloody murder at the entry level contract amount and length even though you indicate bonuses. I love the notion of performance bonuses and would love to see every contract have a base that is lower with greater bonuses. The Scott Gomez clause.

I'd say max contract length at 6 years instead of 7. Only as a bone to throw at the NHL for not getting their immediate reduction in salary.
 

buggs

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This attitude extends to and includes relocation, expansion, contraction, any and all fundamental issues that NHL as a business, the rights of determination will not share with its employee's, all of whom are simply highly paid seasonal, temporary & disposable workers. Average career length being what, about 4.5yrs?

At an average salary of 2.5 million per year, so highly paid as you indicate with the average income over that short 4.5 year period of 11.25 million dollars. Even a guy making $600K over that period is earning 2.7 million over that time frame. Should be enough to easily purchase a house, a couple of vehicles and secure a hefty RRSP/401K fund plus have some money for future education needs.

I don't disagree with you on anything but let's not forget that these players are extremely well compensated for all those slights. It ain't minimum wage and they aren't by any means limited by their short term employment from going back to school and pursuing other career options during their remaining old age years from 25 onwards.
 

marcel snapshot

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This attitude extends to and includes relocation, expansion, contraction, any and all fundamental issues that NHL as a business, the rights of determination will not share with its employee's, all of whom are simply highly paid seasonal, temporary & disposable workers. Average career length being what, about 4.5yrs?

Normally, I wouldn't have much objection to a competently-run pro sports league telling the players thanks but no thanks we don't want your input on relocation, expansion, contraction and other basic business matters. But the NHL has repeatedly demonstrated such mind-boggling incompetence with respect to these issues that they could clearly use the help.
 

LadyStanley

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Sep 22, 2004
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http://www.sportsnet.ca/hockey/nhl-lockout/2012/10/05/spector_nhl_players_tunnel_vision/

Spector: Tunnel vision

The owners are entirely incompetent when it comes to controlling their own costs, while the players are totally out of touch with the real world as they collect 57 per cent of the revenues with that insipid sense of entitlement.
...
"I'm waiting for the owners who love the game and want to play to say 'Enough is enough,'" Buffalo goalie Ryan Miller told Rimer. "If they showed us they have respect for the game and respect for the players the deal would come much sooner than using a lockout to hurt us."
 

Habaneros

Habs Cup champs 2010
Oct 31, 2011
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Could the players union beat the NHL to the punch? ?

As we sit by watching NHL cancel another season of games,row by row ,what if the players come out saying next week,


"were the players union , are not playing any games rest of year" ,

thank you



Why not beat the NHL to the punch?
If NHL try lock out again 6 years from now, tell them they best cancel the season in Sept ,cause we aint playing one game all year,if you call a lock out ever again.
 
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wilty00

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Because any morsel of public support that they carry with them will get totally obliterated and they will alienate the people who pay their salaries?

Peope can deal with getting screwed by multimillionaire commerce types who are in the business of making money, I don't think they can deal with getting screwed by a bunch of idiots who could be bagging groceries or selling cars (obviously I'm generalizing) if they weren't pulling in millions of dollars to play a childs game.
 

Killion

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Feb 19, 2010
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I don't disagree with you on anything but let's not forget that these players are extremely well compensated for all those slights. It ain't minimum wage and they aren't by any means limited by their short term employment from going back to school and pursuing other career options during their remaining old age years from 25 onwards.

Normally, I wouldn't have much objection to a competently-run pro sports league telling the players thanks but no thanks we don't want your input on relocation, expansion, contraction and other basic business matters. But the NHL has repeatedly demonstrated such mind-boggling incompetence with respect to these issues that they could clearly use the help.

... indeed, and its the blank space between these two positions, philosophies & opinions, both valid that is as wide as the Grand Canyon, bridges almost impossible to build. On the one hand, players are extremely well paid, looked after, everything first class, getting paid the kind of money most can only dream about, set for life. Even at 43 or 47% of HRR's. How much money do you need, and how much is too much before the business model upon which its built cracks & crumbles? Maybe the players should just bite the bullet & go with the flow? Its not like their losing a whole Hell of a lot. The smaller issues, like Arbitration, age of eligibility & or terms pursuant to RFA etc are all negotiable, stick & carrot stuff.

According to the NHL, that lines already been crossed, and despite record revenue increases, profitability stagnant, non-existent, a great number of teams simply unable to keep up, compete. If you turn over $3B in revenues yet your losses are such that your actual profit is wiped out, then ya, youve got yourselves a serious problem. I agree with you marcel, the reason theyve gotten themselves to what they claim is untenable has everything to do with incompetence. It is however a private business, run like a private club, and theres just no way they'll ever permit an Arbitrator, the NHLPA, a Jim Balsillie or anyone else for that matter to challenge their God given right of determination.
 

Habaneros

Habs Cup champs 2010
Oct 31, 2011
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Because any morsel of public support that they carry with them will get totally obliterated and they will alienate the people who pay their salaries?

Peope can deal with getting screwed by multimillionaire commerce types who are in the business of making money, I don't think they can deal with getting screwed by a bunch of idiots who could be bagging groceries or selling cars (obviously I'm generalizing) if they weren't pulling in millions of dollars to play a childs game.

Well i see the players saying categorically, there the one who don't want a lock out, and if NHL cares for fans they should let players play as they negotiate...i dunno the fans been in 3 of these by NHL, i can't see the fans backlash on the players shutting it down.....Bettmen is just goona bleed it and do the same.

If the players stood up and said , enough , where not playing this year, and if you want to lock out us and the fans AGAIN, will call the season off in Sept of any season you threaten lock out .


This way the players and fans gain control,as the lock out now means INSTANT cancel of season on day 1 of any lock out ....none of this lock out and try to break the players crap as you cancel games"see i took away your toys" .

Would put a lot of power back into players hands IMHO.

The players "cattle" gotta turn the tide,there goona be the hostage every time...
 
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NHLFanSince2020

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Feb 22, 2003
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Buffalo goalie Ryan Miller told Rimer. "If they showed us they have respect for the game and respect for the players the deal would come much sooner than using a lockout to hurt us."

What a silly sap!

You're only hurting yourself play-acting butthurt, Mr. Miller.

There, I showed you respect, I called you Mr. Miller.
Now get in there and negotiate.
Geez!
 

JR303

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Feb 28, 2008
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Another person who gets it. Nice quick little article.

This has become a cluster**** of epic proportions. Extremely more disappointing and needless than the last one, and quite possibly completely more damaging.

This is not about who's side is "right", it's not about winning the lockout, it's not about anything that most of the arguments have been about even here on HF. It's about the realization that both parties have been at fault and manipulated in some manor or another. Meet in the middle. Brush the dirt (or ice) off and play the ****ing game.

Oh, and a quick message to the players, the "woe is me, we're not the ones locking out" pandering crap is ridiculous. I hope, seriously hope, that the general public is smarter than to buy that line.


I've said before, I'll say it again, "A plague o' both your houses."

ETA: Also, if they players are so hell bent on playing and negotiating how about this, the players play, the owners pay for EVERYTHING, except salaries. The players will get their salaries, in full per the new cba, upon its ratification. I suspect that will stop that playing while negotiating ****.
 

Em etah Eh

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cheswick

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The players won't do that cause it accomplishes nothing. Just like the NHL doesn't cancel the whole season cause it accomplishes nothing.
 

oilexport

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Frustration setting in and Bettman and Fehr failing us

http://slam.canoe.ca/Slam/Hockey/NHL/2012/10/04/20259691.html

Good article on how I'm feeling as a fan.

Seems more and more like the Leadership is not getting the job done

Is there not a deal to be made ? I think the deal is very clear for the NHL and Players
1. drag on salaries
2. better revenue sharing

That's it !!! the leaders must lead and get it done

Bettman and Fehr are Lawyers and need to have a better business frame of mind. They need to work Together.
 
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