When this tree fell in the forest, who noticed? (CBA & Lockout Discussion)- Part V

[Dixon Ward]

Good for Gary to get the best deal for the **** teams for sure. Although, removing the order and letting the big owners talk to their players that have awesome personal relationships would end the lock out very quickly.

Gary's gag order is why I predicted 2 months ago that this will be a 2 year lockout, which ****ing sucks.

depending on the content of the communication this could be direct dealing, which is an unfair labor practice prohibited by the NLRA

 

[Boltsfan2029]

Good for Gary to get the best deal for the **** teams for sure. Although, removing the order and letting the big owners talk to their players that have awesome personal relationships would end the lock out very quickly.

Gary's gag order is why I predicted 2 months ago that this will be a 2 year lockout, which ****ing sucks.

Well, I don't know if the owners talking to a few players would solve things, but it was smart to put the gag order in that keeps them from making foolish remarks via the media the way the players are doing. That's what I was talking about.

 

[Ragamuffin Gunner]

Huh?????

The CBA expired on Sept 15, 2012.

It's not pinin'! It's passed on! This CBA is no more! He has ceased to be! 'E's expired and gone to meet 'is maker! 'E's a stiff! Bereft of life, 'e rests in peace! If you hadn't nailed 'im to the perch 'e'd be pushing up the daisies! 'Is metabolic processes are now 'istory! 'E's off the twig! 'E's kicked the bucket, 'e's shuffled off 'is mortal coil, run down the curtain and joined the bleedin' choir invisibile!! THIS IS AN EX-CBA!!

And the previous CBA expired on Sept 15, 2004 - prior to the lockout.

It's not dead, it's pining for the fjords.

 

[Victorious Secret]

Since the NHLPA cancelled the re-alignment changes, I'm surprised that hasn't been brought up as a bargaining chip, since it was speculated that was the reason for nixing the change.

 

[LadyStanley]

Since the NHLPA cancelled the re-alignment changes, I'm surprised that hasn't been brought up as a bargaining chip, since it was speculated that was the reason for nixing the change.

NHL has proposed taking away the NHLPA's right to reject such things (first and second proposals, IIRC).

 

[Victorious Secret]

Thanks for the quick response. I've been wondering why I haven't heard more about it.

 

[htpwn]

22 Minutes did a brief sketch on the NHL Lockout earlier this week:

http://www.cbc.ca/video/watch/22MinutesClipsandShorts-Site only/ID=2286123041

I know the show isn't exactly what it used to be but the clip is still good for a few laughs.

 

[SpeedyLazaro]

Frankly, as a sales person, this is all just world class negotiationg. I'm really not worried. well.. that's a lie.. I'm very worries. But I truly think that black friday is the real deadline and it will be over by then'

people need to really stop pooping their pants over negotiationg tactics.. this is the game

"I'll cancell the whole season by Nov 23rd"

"do it"

 

[mossey3535]

I'm generally pro-owner on these sorts of things, but in all honesty I do sympathize with what Toews is saying here. I'd be frustrated too if someone was wanting to take more money from my pocket and couldn't articulate it in terms any more detailed then "Well, we think we need more."

That being said, IMHO the owners have at least given the impression that they are willing to negotiate to a settlement, whereas the PA seems to be borrowing from the Goodenow playbook that has only one sentence on one page: "Say no till they cave!". That is every bit as confrontational as what the NHL is doing.

And one could just as easily say that if the players were as determined to solve these issues as they are to partake in petty potshots against the commissioner of the league the vast majority of them grew up wanting to play in, then perhaps we wouldn't be where we are now.

BOTH sides should be red-faced with shame at the mistakes they've neglected to learn from. Again.

Ok, what part of 'a large part of our league is losing money' isn't articulated in terms they can understand?

All you have to do is realize that there are haves and have-nots in the league. The players need both because ALL teams provide them jobs, even the ones in non-traditional markets.

Likewise, there are haves and have-nots amongst the players. You have your genuine stars, then your elite players, then some 2nd line guys. After that there is everyone else - and they are essentially interchangeable parts.

The mega-contracts offered to certain elite players is not hypocrisy by the league. It simply meant that the rich teams got creative in luring big names to their team. That's the way it is - there will always be favourable treatment of stars because stars bring people to the gates and that's how you make money. Likewise the stars EXPECT this treatment, and always have. The rich teams go after the best players.

The Parise/Suter contracts have been overblown because they focus on the TOTAL amount. They are both signed to reasonable cap hits, especially Suter who is arguably one of the best d-men in the league. Also if you look at the National Post article numbers (based on the Forbes numbers) you'll see that Minnesota has revenues roughly in the middle of the pack and that in 2009 they actually turned a profit, despite missing the playoffs for four straight years and having a boring team. It is a reasonable gamble on the part of the Wild to sign two hometown stars to reasonable cap-hits despite the total length of the contracts in order to make the playoffs and become profitable again.

Historically even poor have-not, underperforming teams have had at least one marquee player who is highly paid. All teams have to bet on lucrative deals to at least one elite player.

Even if a team goes the cheap route, there are always some overachieving players who come out of nowhere and play their way into a higher salary bracket simply by having the opportunity and icetime (hi, Dustin Penner and Matt Moulson!).

Therefore every team is at some point forced to overpay for talent that will keep people coming through the gates, with the exception of Edmonton (keep developing prospects and letting them go elsewhere) or Toronto (people pack the house no matter how much the product stinks).

Paying out the nose for NHL talent is INEVITABLE. There is a small supply and a large demand. Everyone understands this at both the team and player level, so having the players turn around in their PR spin and saying that these big contracts are proof that the owners are lying about the amount of money the teams are making is frankly horse pucky.

 

[Pepper]

Allan Walsh makes himself look dumber every time he tweets something. Talk about a bitter person.

 

[Krishna]

I wonder if the league and players would agree to something like this :

Both sides want 57%. What about doing a 6 or 8 year CBA where each year they alternate each year having 57% with the cap being merged between the cap merged between the previous high and low cycle

Quick math would have the salary cap at about 63m.. Probably off a bit

Probably not.. but that extra money could be used to help get the league's teams completely out of debt and/or possibly owning their own arenas to cut some losses

 

[JMT21]

Frankly, I hope this Nov 23rd "deadline" carries some weight. It should give each side the incentive to keep negotiating or just call it a season and let the owners of their respective buildings book as many dates as possible to fill the void. No screwing around until mid February like last time.

On another note.... a Winnipeg paper reported that the Flyers have 18,200 STH. So far... only (5) have cancelled their ST in protest to the lockout. Unsure how this information was gained and can't vouch for it's accuracy.

I wonder how many STH across the entire league have cancelled their ST in protest? Probably not many.... yet.

 

[KaraLupin]

So to clarify, once it gets passed the Winter Classic area of dates, and nothing has been worked out, it's no longer plausible or worthwhile to try to salvage a "mini-season", and they will just call the whole season off?

If they can't work a deal out in a WHOLE year, what will make a second lost season any more urgent? Everyone involved loses money on the daily, not the season-ly.

 

[Krishna]

Frankly, I hope this Nov 23rd "deadline" carries some weight. It should give each side the incentive to keep negotiating or just call it a season and let the owners of their respective buildings book as many dates as possible to fill the void. No screwing around until mid February like last time.

On another note.... a Winnipeg paper reported that the Flyers have 18,200 STH. So far... only (5) have cancelled their ST in protest to the lockout. Unsure how this information was gained and can't vouch for it's accuracy.

I wonder how many STH across the entire league have cancelled their ST in protest? Probably not many.... yet.

Flyers season ticket holder Flountown has posted recently saying it's pretty hard to cancel his season tickets with the Flyers ************ constantly

 

[Tripod]

I for one, think there should be a cap....but NO floor. This allows teams to pay players what they can afford based on their market. Having a team that has to overpay average players so you can make the floor is a horrible idea. It drives the market up and GUARANTEES they can not control that cost.

I also would have no guaranteed contracts. Play well...get good $. You don't...see Gomez....you take pay cut to get a job and prove yourself over again. I think we would all agree that if this were the case, Gomez would have gotten his 3-4 years of good money, then the last few been say for 1.5 mill. His money would then have been freed up to pay another player if the team so chooses or go after a free agent. And chances are, MTL would have moved those funds to another player. Why is MTL punished by paying a player who has declined so far and their only option is to waive him and still have to pay almost the whole thing because Gomez sucked. He got his contact to play at a certain level, not fall off the cliff. And only the Owners get punished when that happens...the players have no risk. The NHLPA...being a collective group..should see that the money would go to another player...so all is good. Fans would like it...owners would like it...only the players individually won't...but as a union...should be fine with it.

Also...no more signing bonuses and "cap" deals. If a player signs a 3 years deal for 4 million per...he is paid 4 million per and the cap is the same...no 6 mill, 4 mill, 2 mill deals. This keeps the circumvention from happening. The "over 35 rule" would not be needed and works perfectly with the no guaranteed contracts.

Thoughts?

 

[Tripod]

I see that the NHLPA wants an extra trainer on the road and wants players to have their own rooms...and wants the owners to pay for it all. Funny how the costs for the owners ALWAYS increase making them less $, but the players don't "share" their wealth.

 

[BLONG7]

Allan Walsh makes himself look dumber every time he tweets something. Talk about a bitter person.

Biggest idiot connected to the game...no doubt...

 

[NHLFanSince2020]

I see that the NHLPA wants an extra trainer on the road and wants players to have their own rooms...and wants the owners to pay for it all. Funny how the costs for the owners ALWAYS increase making them less $, but the players don't "share" their wealth.

Why not ask for the stars?
Ask for the most you can in negotiations.
That's the way it works.
But yes, it's amazing how the players cry in public about their plight.

 

[Milhouse40]

Never forget some facts:

Owners gave stupid contracts lately.....true....very true
BUT who gave them the ability to do so???

Last CBA negociation ended a little like this:
Salary Cap for the owners in exchange for no limitations on contracts.

The kind of contract as we know was the player's idea
Salary Cap was the owners idea.

The salary cap was a good idea
No limitation on contract wasn't

A lot of poeple think Bettman doesn't care about the game or the fans.
The guy has been with the league since 1993.....19 years........

Mayby he doesn't care that much....but he sure care WAY MORE than Fehr who is in the hockey bussiness since only two years..

 

[Marns]

I also would have no guaranteed contracts. Play well...get good $. You don't...see Gomez....you take pay cut to get a job and prove yourself over again. I think we would all agree that if this were the case, Gomez would have gotten his 3-4 years of good money, then the last few been say for 1.5 mill. His money would then have been freed up to pay another player if the team so chooses or go after a free agent. And chances are, MTL would have moved those funds to another player. Why is MTL punished by paying a player who has declined so far and their only option is to waive him and still have to pay almost the whole thing because Gomez sucked. He got his contact to play at a certain level, not fall off the cliff. And only the Owners get punished when that happens...the players have no risk. The NHLPA...being a collective group..should see that the money would go to another player...so all is good. Fans would like it...owners would like it...only the players individually won't...but as a union...should be fine with it.

Why is Montreal punished? Because they traded for a guy who signed a bad contract (and yes, it was a bad contract even when he was up around the 60 pt mark). They knew the risks. Signing and trading players is all about managing risks.

 

[njdevil26]

My current stance (which changes often) is this: If it's true that Bettman wanted to start negotiating in November 2011 and Fehr refused, I am now fully on the side of Bettman and the owners.

 

[WeThreeKings]

Why is Montreal punished? Because they traded for a guy who signed a bad contract (and yes, it was a bad contract even when he was up around the 60 pt mark). They knew the risks. Signing and trading players is all about managing risks.

Isn't watching Gomez play hockey punishment enough?
I imagine that is what hell is like..

 

[NHLFanSince2020]

A lot of poeple think Bettman doesn't care about the game or the fans.
The guy has been with the league since 1993.....19 years........

He does a call-in talk show for an hour each week during the season.
You can call in and vent on the commissioner, as long as you're not an ass about it.

Has any other leader of any professional sports league done anything remotely similar?

I don't understand why he doesn't get any credit for that.

 

[MacOfNiagara]

Just keep beating that drum NHLPA.

Andrew Ference "in most any other business you would continue working while negotiating a new union contract"

Shawn Thorton ""I’m disappointed that the league refuses to negotiate and would rather lock us out and try to sweat us out instead of negotiating in good faith"

 

[Krishna]

He does a call-in talk show for an hour each week during the season.
You can call in and vent on the commissioner, as long as you're not an ass about it.

Has any other leader of any professional sports league done anything remotely similar?

I don't understand why he doesn't get any credit for that.

Well, one radio station gave out Roger Goodell's cell phone number a few weeks back.. Does that count?

And He pretty much gets no credit about anything good he does from anybody