When can we start blaming scouting?

[McDoused]

I'd say that Detroit has done 2,000,000 times better than us.

Why even bring up drafting pre 2008? It's pretty obvious our drafting sucked before that.

 

[thadd]

So is the sort of "point-ish" thing of this thread the Oilers are the Sucks because of bad late round draft picks?

Because unless they are All goalies, I fail to see that as the case.

I always said that Sather had an excuse because he was playing under a self imposed cap because of the economy.

When things got better so did we with a few trades and signings, but after that we dropped off of the face of the planet.

How many years did we not even have our own farm team?

Our scouting is easily VERY questionable and so is our whole development system.

I love the results they've been getting down there, but none of these kids seem to have been getting prepared to play in Edmonton. The coaches don't cordite their efforts and for that Edmonton shouldnt' be reimbursing this team for jack.

Very happy with Acrobello, who played his fair share of AHL games but the Barrons haven't done much for us since the birth of their existence except give the kids a place to play for cheap during the lockout.

 

[Tanknation]

Watch many Habs games? He isnt PKing and hes barely getting PP time, but he's over a point a game and a +5 while playing less than 12 minutes a night. He's a very good 5-on-5 player. The stats bear it, and if you have watched the Habs with regularity you'd know that he plays a good 200 ft game.

Not saying he is better than Yak, or that we should have drafted him (particularly given the small sample size of games in his draft year), just saying he'd make us a harder team to play against than Yak does at the moment.

Someone that actually watches others teams aside from their own and knows what he is talking about. I agree with you 100% . These are the players you win with. It's like comparing Ovechkin and Crosby. Sure Ovechkin is flashier and may score more goals but which player would you rather have if you want to win anything? I don't think many people realize that AleX G had barely played any PP time last year, and played less minutes then Yak, yet he still produced and on top of that his Plus minus was great even playing with 3rd liners. If we can do pick over again I would take Galenychuck over Yakopov. I hope I eat crow but unlikely as that kid is already a stud.

 

[thadd]

Why even bring up drafting pre 2008? It's pretty obvious our drafting sucked before that.

Well I went back that far with Detorit and Edmonton because that's when I was old enough to actually care to pay attention to drafts. Of course I copied that from an online source, but it's a good example of the truth.

 

[Sloth Slothersons*]

Let me first say that I love RNH. He is the best player on the team now and will be gonig forward. That said, HALL-LANDESKOG-GALCHENYUK makes us look like a much harder team to play against than HALL-RNH-YAKUPOV.

As to the Eberle pick, I will, until my deathbed maintain that I am responsible for that pick. I saw Lowe and the rest of hockey ops on Laurier Ave here in Ottawa the night before the 2008 draft. They walked by me at a red light and I yelled, "You'd better ****ing take Eberle tomorrow". All me.

If we didn't take RNH we would have taken Larsson due to need on Defence. And Gally was injured so that was risky. If we drafted for need each draft we would have ended up with Seguin, Larsson, Yakupov (maybe Gally but Yak was clear #1 while Gally was coming off injury). And that's not a better set of players.

 

[Fourier]

It's not about 1st rounders.

It's about getting something GOOD out of those mid rounds now and then.

Once in a while you can get away with your 1st rounder not turning out, but once in a while you need a 3rd-6th rounder to turn into a very important player too.

This is just not true. The first round is far and away the most important round from a scouting perspective.

 

[MinnesotaFats]

Yeah that Greg Chase guy is brutal right now.

14 pts in 9 games so far this year. Pencil him in to the line up next year and plan the parade!

Seriously?! I didnt like the draft strategy they took; I think they made some very questionable selections in the first 4 rounds. Too early to tell, but to imply that the draft is successful because a 7th rounder, who will likely never play an NHL game, has 14 pts in 9 games, seems much more outlandish than what I'm saying.

 

[IButtersI]

I should have said in the OP that our entire development system had been terrible. I'm sure the poor development of our players is a result of us not having a farm team for those years before the Stu era started. We haven't seemed to pick up much steam since then.

For those that are getting upset with this thread, I'm sorry, I was busy this morning and should have added more to the OP. I wanted some interesting conversation for when I got to work and I got it

I don't think it's ever a bad time to question any department when the team has been this bad for this long.

So far the poll shows that most agree. At the very least I hope that maybe try adding a few other experienced guys.

Katz can afford it and there's no cap on team employees.

 

[Jimmi McJenkins]

14 pts in 9 games so far this year. Pencil him in to the line up next year and plan the parade!

Seriously?! I didnt like the draft strategy they took; I think they made some very questionable selections in the first 4 rounds. Too early to tell, but to imply that the draft is successful because a 7th rounder, who will likely never play an NHL game, has 14 pts in 9 games, seems much more outlandish than what I'm saying.

That's fine, and you're entitled to that thought, however YOU understand that doesn't mean all the picked players are awful or flawed, the Mass does not quiet as much. And yes, having a 7th Round pick massively out perform his draft position in junior should be seen a strong positive.

 

[MinnesotaFats]

That's fine, and you're entitled to that thought, however YOU understand that doesn't mean all the picked players are awful or flawed, the Mass does not quiet as much. And yes, having a 7th Round pick massively out perform his draft position in junior should be seen a strong positive.

Is it a positive? Absolutely. Does it mean very much 9 games into the season? Not at all. Will it mean much at the end of the season if he continues at a similar pace? It will certainly be something to talk about and watch, but the chances of him being a player that makes a difference to this team are still slim.

There are some intriguing picks in that draft, no doubt. Round 3 just ruined it for me though.

 

[Master Lok]

Lol seriously?

I'm not going to do a bunch of busy work for you because you don't want to look yourself...

Why don't YOU look yourself?

Go and find one other team with a worse record outside the 1st round then the Oilers the past 7 years.

Its known as credibility and proof. Instead of throwing crap on the wall and hoping your argument sticks.

If you have an argument, try bringing some substantive deduction or analysis like what Hockey Buddha did. If we can bring some actual intelligence to the discussion, then perhaps this board won't resemble a bunch of 16 year old teenagers crying and wailing, and more people might take your discussion seriously.

 

[Moose Coleman]

Yes drafting is important. Nobody in hockey would deny that.

I'm saying that successful teams rely on drafting less. They arent "selling" the future every year to the fanbase. When the future has been thrown in your face for most of the last 20 years or so, i dont think its unreasonable to look at something so relevant and important as amateur scouting. Our expectations should be higher of our scouting group than Detroit of theirs.

Why?

Nobody should e getting a free pass right now on the team.

And no, im at work and not going to be looking at 29 other teams draft record. Feel free to do so yourself if its that important for you.

It's not that important to me, but it is kind of central to your argument that the Oilers are somehow worse at drafting than anyone else.

Regardless, I don't give a **** about having a similar record as Detroit Or any other team. It's a results driven business and the current team doesn't have the results.

If every other team is also not getting the results (and no one has shown me otherwise), that says something more about the system itself than any one group of scouts and management.

 

[thadd]

This is just not true. The first round is far and away the most important round from a scouting perspective.

You're right. I should have written "It's not all about first rounders".

My point is that we'll never be able to sustain being at a high level for a long period of time until we start to get more our of our mid and late round picks.

Going after free agents instead is usually costly for most teams and you can't play around like that with the salary cap. (Obviously)

 

[Jimmi McJenkins]

Is it a positive? Absolutely. Does it mean very much 9 games into the season? Not at all. Will it mean much at the end of the season if he continues at a similar pace? It will certainly be something to talk about and watch, but the chances of him being a player that makes a difference to this team are still slim.

There are some intriguing picks in that draft, no doubt. Round 3 just ruined it for me though.

Either way, the problem is "others" will use/confuse this fair assessment you're making from your perspective with an excuse to pointlessly and senselessly grind an axe again, which is so ****ing insufferable.

You can't even properly evaluate this Oilers team Right now because they don't even get basic goaltending.

 

[IButtersI]

Its known as credibility and proof. Instead of throwing crap on the wall and hoping your argument sticks.

If you have an argument, try bringing some substantive deduction or analysis like what Hockey Buddha did. If we can bring some actual intelligence to the discussion, then perhaps this board won't resemble a bunch of 16 year old teenagers crying and wailing, and more people might take your discussion seriously.

Take a look at the results so far. Read the posts in the thread. Many people are having a good debate. I think most are taking the discussion seriously. You seem to be the off person who has a problem with having a reasonable discussion.

My opinion is the drafting has been poor. If you don't like it, feel free to debate.

I could have added more but was on my way out the door. If you can't take a look yourself and see how bad it's been. Don't just hold it in guy, let us learn from you.

 

[thadd]

You can't even properly evaluate this Oilers team Right now because they don't even get basic goaltending.

I can.

Our first three lines are scoring, but a number of them aren't effective enough on the back check.

Our defense is below average, but I don't see any d-men blatantly taking nights off.

Yes. Basic goaltending isn't there.

 

[IButtersI]

Why?



It's not that important to me, but it is kind of central to your argument that the Oilers are somehow worse at drafting than anyone else.



If every other team is also not getting the results (and no one has shown me otherwise), that says something more about the system itself than any one group of scouts and management.

Why? I just explained it right before the bolded part. I don't understand how you didn't see that.

Teams with deep rosters that can attract free agents and are competitors for the cup ever year won't need to rely as much on drafting as teams who are constantly tanking and trading for futures.

There are alot of bits and pieces to something as complex as amateur scouting. I'm not gonna spell everything out before I make a thread. As a fan of this team for 25 years I am concerned about the drafting success. Apparently I'm not the only one.

The whole argument of other teams sucking is like saying its ok to fail miserably at your job becaus other people in your field arent doing well. I know there are very good young players in the league not drafted in the top 30 that would help us.

If you want me to go online when I get home from work and take a look at all the non 1st rounders under 25 playing regularly I will. It's not hard to take a look and see that drafting should atleast be looked at for a team who has been rebuilding for this long.

 

[Moose Coleman]

Take a look at the results so far. Read the posts in the thread. Many people are having a good debate. I think most are taking the discussion seriously. You seem to be the off person who has a problem with having a reasonable discussion.

How is asking for proof unreasonable?

My opinion is the drafting has been poor. If you don't like it, feel free to debate.

You are entitled to your opinion. You are not entitled to your own facts. Do you have a basis for your opinion or is it just a gut feeling?

I could have added more but was on my way out the door. If you can't take a look yourself and see how bad it's been. Don't just hold it in guy, let us learn from you.

Burden of proof here is on the person making the claim. Regardless, I've posted the odds of drafting an NHLer and a couple of examples of more successful teams with similar draft records to ours. It's not much, but it's more than you've brought to the table. How about this: name a team that's drafted better in the last five years and we'll go from there.

Here's something I will concede: the Oilers have had a very poor history with first round picks going back to the 80s. But that's ancient history and not germane to the discussion of the current regime's body of work. For the most part, it's simply too soon to tell with them.

 

[thinlizzy]

Riley Nash at 21 in 2007 was bad but he is in the NHL for a drink. Same with Alex Plante at 15 same year playing in Austria. Taylor Chorney terrible pick 2005. I think that now that the scouts are being watched a tad more carefully the picks are getting way better. 2011-12 selections have some talent.

It would be interesting to be able to see what the scouts picked compared to what the organization drafted. It is a pretty easy to draft numero uno for the most part. I still think

 

[PaPaDee]

I agree that our drafting record beyond the 1st round isn't pretty. But I'm not sure if drafting is the problem or if it's player development.

 

[FireMacT]

I see the Detroit being outdated argument, but pick any other successful team and they seem to always find guys in the later round that can contribute at the NHL level.

lol Greg Chase also

 

[IButtersI]

How is asking for proof unreasonable?



You are entitled to your opinion. You are not entitled to your own facts. Do you have a basis for your opinion or is it just a gut feeling?



Burden of proof here is on the person making the claim. Regardless, I've posted the odds of drafting an NHLer and a couple of examples of more successful teams with similar draft records to ours. It's not much, but it's more than you've brought to the table. How about this: name a team that's drafted better in the last five years and we'll go from there.

Here's something I will concede: the Oilers have had a very poor history with first round picks going back to the 80s. But that's ancient history and not germane to the discussion of the current regime's body of work. For the most part, it's simply too soon to tell with them.

I don't care if you concede anything to me. I'm not trying to change yor mind. I never make threads and didnt know I needed to write a paper that was gonna be graded and used by you to make me state the obvious. By the results most agree with me and you seem to be the only one demanding "proof" of something that is obvious to most of us.

Like I said earlier, tonight if I have the time, ill give you a list of several good young players who aren't 1st

 

[Senor Catface]

I see the Detroit being outdated argument, but pick any other successful team and they seem to always find guys in the later round that can contribute at the NHL level.

lol Greg Chase also

Chicago

That was easy.

 

[Master Lok]

Take a look at the results so far. Read the posts in the thread. Many people are having a good debate. I think most are taking the discussion seriously. You seem to be the off person who has a problem with having a reasonable discussion.

My opinion is the drafting has been poor. If you don't like it, feel free to debate.

I could have added more but was on my way out the door. If you can't take a look yourself and see how bad it's been. Don't just hold it in guy, let us learn from you.

Several posters have pointedly asked for you to substantiate your claim that the Oilers drafting has been worse than most teams. You have not provided any such detail, just your opinion that "Oilers are bad, check it out for yourself."

We have. As Hockey Buddha pointed out, the Oilers drafting is not clearly worse than other teams.

 

[Beerfish]

Either way, the problem is "others" will use/confuse this fair assessment you're making from your perspective with an excuse to pointlessly and senselessly grind an axe again, which is so ****ing insufferable.

You can't even properly evaluate this Oilers team Right now because they don't even get basic goaltending.

Your argument in this thread is sheer and utter laughable nonsense. Pointing as tending problems as an excuse or a reason to to evaluate all the pitlicks, hamiltons, martinadles, abneys, biggos's, etc etc etc etc etc etc etc etc.

We have to srub around other teams minor league teams and over pay freeagent 3rd and 4th lines because we have literally developed non of our own.

The op is pretty well right on the money....and you can include goalies in that as well. We have no goalies in the system that look worthwhile at even being a backup right now.