Post-Game Talk: We're Frauds!!!!

[flyfysher]

Vegas deserved to win, but it was evenly matched overall.

I want the team to make improvements and empty the cupboard, if necessary.

What I’m not going to do is sit here and pretend like the Avs don’t have a really good team.

Obviously you strive to create the best team, but I hate to break it to you, the best team doesn’t win the cup every season. There’s luck involved and you have to play your best at the right time.

Not a thing you wrote that I disagree with. But the Avs weren't the best team. They repeatedly got trapped with the puck being cycled in their zone. They didn't have the net front shutdown D presence they needed. Now a lot of that is attributable to the lack of offense, in particular the second line.

I agree with dahrougem that Burakovsky probably would have done much better if he actually had a real 2C instead of Compher. But we'll never know.

For now, the problems as I see it first and foremost is that 2C position and then the 2RD. Girard sucked and I love Girard. Really don't want to trade him either. But to not acknowledge his deficiencies is nuts.

 

[letsgoavs1921]

Avs were significantly out played 4 of the 6 games. One was a toss up. One was a clear win for the Avs. Lines 2-4 were hot garbage, and the first line was mediocre. Avs need more from their forward lines. G shouldn't play the right again and needs a partner to help him retrieve the puck. The bottom pairing needs much better puck movement in general. Avs need to do a better job getting Timmins, Byram, and MacDonald PK reps during the season so the Avs don't have to rely on a guy who is a liability for 9-11 minutes a game just to have him on the PK.

In other words, plenty to learn.

Incorrect. Which games were we significantly outplayed in?

We outplayed them in 1, 5 and 6

They outplayed us in 2, 3 and 4

 

[flyfysher]

My only concern is what do we learn from this one? Next time we are playing the other best team in the league, and the series is 2-2 what would we learn and do differently? We played two pretty good games. Deserved to be up more than 2-0 going to the third in game 5

And nothing to learn from your goaltender going in the shitter for the final four periods of the series. Think Vegas scored on 8 of their last 27 shots??? What's the lesson there?

1. You need to be able to roll two scoring lines. The failure to do so put all of the pressure on the first line. So get a real 2C first and foremost.

2. The Avs shouldn't roll into the next POs with Kadri. If that happens, then I consider that a failure.

3. Love Girard during the regular season. He needs help in the POs. Physically he just gets manhandled, especially on his off side and it blows up the breakout and screws up the fast offensive tempo. So like henchman says, do you go big or just get a 2RD to cover that deficiency. If EJ had been available then it might have been a different outcome but that is an acknowledgement that Girard isn't capable of handling this by himself.

 

[letsgoavs1921]

1. You need to be able to roll two scoring lines. The failure to do so put all of the pressure on the first line. So get a real 2C first and foremost.

2. The Avs shouldn't roll into the next POs with Kadri. If that happens, then I consider that a failure.

3. Love Girard during the regular season. He needs help in the POs. Physically he just gets manhandled, especially on his off side and it blows up the breakout and screws up the fast offensive tempo. So like henchman says, do you go big or just get a 2RD to cover that deficiency. If EJ had been available then it might have been a different outcome but that is an acknowledgement that Girard isn't capable of handling this by himself.

1 - We have one and he got suspended

2 - I agree

3 - He was great in the playoffs last year. I'm gonna chalk it up to he had a bad series

 

[henchman21]

Incorrect. Which games were we significantly outplayed in?

We outplayed them in 1, 5 and 6

They outplayed us in 2, 3 and 4

Avs out played Vegas is game 1. Vegas took 2-4, 5 was a toss up. Game 6 was Vegas. In game 6 the Avs played a great third, but were out played badly in the 1st and by a decent amount in the 2nd. 6 was probably the closest of the games Vegas outplayed the Avs... and I don't think it was all that close.

 

[sethro109]

The Caps used him as a 3rd liner because they had six better forwards than him offensively, not because they saw him as a liability.

Players that score at 66 point paces are not 3rd liners. I don't know what 3rd liner you know of that scores at the same rate as Andre Burakovsky.

This isn't post lockout era hockey anymore. If a player can't play some semblance of defense, we need to ditch him. I don't care if he's scoring at 66 point pace if he's going to be the root cause of points going the other way. He doesn't have to be some 2 way machine, but he's useless if he can't play in his own end. Even Bednar bumped him to the 3rd line more than once this season.

 

[flyfysher]

1 - We have one and he got suspended

2 - I agree

3 - He was great in the playoffs last year. I'm gonna chalk it up to he had a bad series

As to point #3, I think you have to look at who and how he played. It's not enough to say he was great in the POs last year. There's a reason why Girard sucked in the POs against the VGK this year. And I guarantee you that if the Avs go to the POs again with Girard, other heavy teams will try doing the same thing as before.

So in terms of learning, how do you propose to fix that problem? Or do you even think it's a problem?

 

[letsgoavs1921]

Avs out played Vegas is game 1. Vegas took 2-4, 5 was a toss up. Game 6 was Vegas. In game 6 the Avs played a great third, but were out played badly in the 1st and by a decent amount in the 2nd. 6 was probably the closest of the games Vegas outplayed the Avs... and I don't think it was all that close.

I don't know what games you watched in 5-6

Game 5 should have been 4-0 us going to the third. Fleury made 5-6 amazing saves in the first two periods. I don't remember one great save by Grubauer all game. Made the routine ones, and was 0-3 on the ones he "shouldn't" make. Not a tossup

Game 6 we had more shots, more chances, more zone time, more possession. Vegas at one point went 12 minutes without a shot and then gets one shot and scores. That was the story of the night. Grubauer again couldn't make one big save.

 

[letsgoavs1921]

As to point #3, I think you have to look at who and how he played. It's not enough to say he was great in the POs last year. There's a reason why Girard sucked in the POs against the VGK this year. And I guarantee you that if the Avs go to the POs again with Girard, other heavy teams will try doing the same thing as before.

So in terms of learning, how do you propose to fix that problem? Or do you even think it's a problem?

Well what I said before I'm trying to figure out what the lesson is to begin with.

It's like if you punish your child, the point of punishing them is to teach them a lesson so they learn what they did wrong and don't do it again.

We won two games at home, they won two games at home

Best of 3 and we played two good games in 5 and 6. Outplayed them in both. Sure the lesson is don't have any turnovers, but that isn't realistic. We lost because we didn't get any big saves when we needed them. When the two best teams play and you out shoot them and out chance them by a lot over a two game stretch and lose them both sometimes it is what it is. Not having Kadri mattered, but we outplayed them when it mattered most

 

[Goulet17]

The Avs outplayed Vegas badly through the first two periods of game 5. Even Mark Stone admitted as much.

 

[letsgoavs1921]

The Avs outplayed Vegas badly through the first two periods of game 5. Even Mark Stone admitted as much.

Yep, should have been 4-0 and a mistake or two wouldn't have mattered

 

[flyfysher]

Well what I said before I'm trying to figure out what the lesson is to begin with.

It's like if you punish your child, the point of punishing them is to teach them a lesson so they learn what they did wrong and don't do it again.

We won two games at home, they won two games at home

Best of 3 and we played two good games in 5 and 6. Outplayed them in both. Sure the lesson is don't have any turnovers, but that isn't realistic. We lost because we didn't get any big saves when we needed them. When the two best teams play and you out shoot them and out chance them by a lot over a two game stretch and lose them both sometimes it is what it is. Not having Kadri mattered, but we outplayed them when it mattered most

No the Avs didn't outplay them. I get that we live in a time when facts don't matter but they lost.

You say the Avs outplayed them and yes, Fleury stood on his head. I get that you don't want to see the Avs' deficiencies that were obvious. Yeah, they're a great regular season team. Can't advance in the POs for different reasons. Already told you why with reasons 1, 2 and 3.

 

[flyfysher]

The Avs outplayed Vegas badly through the first two periods of game 5. Even Mark Stone admitted as much.

But not when it mattered. There are three periods in hockey.

 

[Northern Avs Fan]

Not a thing you wrote that I disagree with. But the Avs weren't the best team. They repeatedly got trapped with the puck being cycled in their zone. They didn't have the net front shutdown D presence they needed. Now a lot of that is attributable to the lack of offense, in particular the second line.

I agree with dahrougem that Burakovsky probably would have done much better if he actually had a real 2C instead of Compher. But we'll never know.

For now, the problems as I see it first and foremost is that 2C position and then the 2RD. Girard sucked and I love Girard. Really don't want to trade him either. But to not acknowledge his deficiencies is nuts.

Kadri would’ve helped, but yeah, we’ll never know the ultimate impact on that.

I agree on Girard. His drop in play was the single biggest reason the Avs lost imo. That and Grubuer’s collapse late in the series. Graves and Nemeth were bad too, but expectations for those two are pretty low to begin with.

 

[letsgoavs1921]

No the Avs didn't outplay them. I get that we live in a time when facts don't matter but they lost.

You say the Avs outplayed them and yes, Fleury stood on his head. I get that you don't want to see the Avs' deficiencies that were obvious. Yeah, they're a great regular season team. Can't advance in the POs for different reasons. Already told you why with reasons 1, 2 and 3.

You're going to have to explain to me (and most others on here) what leads you to believe Vegas outplayed us in games 5 and 6. They didn't. I don't know what you watched but they didn't.

Game 5 their 3 good minutes cancelled out our 57 good minutes. 57 for us, 3 for them and we lose.

Game 6 was the same thing all game. Avs would put multiple good shifts with sustained pressure together. And either almost score a few times or finally score. And then Vegas without creating any sustained pressure would go down and score. Over and over and over again. As I said at one point we outshot them 12-1 in a 12 minute span and the score in that time was 1-1

 

[letsgoavs1921]

But not when it mattered. There are three periods in hockey.

The third period again Vegas never had sustained pressure or momentum. The converted a Bura turnover into a goal (Grubauer didn't bail us out), and then a 4 on 2 for us hits Graves skate, goes the other way and they tie it (Grubauer doesn't bail us out again). Then after that we got the chances again for the final 15 minutes and Fleury saved them.

OT, we get a great chance, Fleury stops it. They get a chance and Grubauer goes 0-3 on bailing us out

 

[flyfysher]

You're going to have to explain to me (and most others on here) what leads you to believe Vegas outplayed us in games 5 and 6. They didn't. I don't know what you watched but they didn't.

They came back to win those games. It's how you finish. That's what matters. Remember what Lombardi said about winning?

 

[letsgoavs1921]

They came back to win those games. It's how you finish. That's what matters. Remember what Lombardi said about winning?

Wow dude, you're deep.

I know they won. I never said they didn't. That doesn't mean they outplayed us

 

[henchman21]

Funny how the minds and perception of events matter. Vegas was ahead in expected goals P1 of G5 and was the better team in that period. Avs had a great 2nd to control the game at that point, they flat out dominated the second. Then Vegas scored a quick goal in the 3rd that snowballed through the middle of the period where the Avs gained steam again. That was an up and down game.

Game 6 was a playoff hockey sort of game by Vegas. Play well, built a lead, shut it down. Vegas was the better team in the first and second. Though the Avs had a stretch in the middle of the second period where they controlled the play. The third, Vegas tightened up the game, turtled and just waited to capitalize on any mistake.

 

[flyfysher]

Wow dude, you're deep.

I know they won. I never said they didn't. That doesn't mean they outplayed us

They outplayed the Avs in the third period. I don't know what game you were watching. It doesn't matter if you outplayed them in the first and second periods. You have to play all 60 minutes and then some if it goes to OT. I don't break games down to the Avs outplayed them in the first and second periods so we're right there with them and we should feel good about ourselves. I don't view things through that perspective.

 

[flyfysher]

Wow dude, you're deep.

I know they won. I never said they didn't. That doesn't mean they outplayed us

Is it your position letsgoavs1921 that since the Avs outplayed the VGK in different periods in the series games that they should not make any changes despite losing? Because that's the point I'm taking away from your argument.

 

[Balthazar]

The Avs outplayed Vegas badly through the first two periods of game 5. Even Mark Stone admitted as much.

If that's your definition of "outplayed badly" how would you describe games 3 and 4?

The deserve-to-win-o-meter from Moneypuck doesn't lie: when the Avs were the better team it was close (game 1) to pretty damn close (game 5 and 6)

When Vegas were the better team the stats were straight out embarassing. Nothing remotely close...in fact that level of domination is unmatched so far in the 2021 playoffs. No other team got spanked as hard as us.

 

[letsgoavs1921]

They outplayed the Avs in the third period. I don't know what game you were watching. It doesn't matter if you outplayed them in the first and second periods. You have to play all 60 minutes and then some if it goes to OT. I don't break games down to the Avs outplayed them in the first and second periods so we're right there with them and we should feel good about ourselves. I don't view things through that perspective.

I disagree. They never once had any sustained pressure. They converted two turnovers by us into quick goals. If anything we had more pressure, zone time and chances

Fleury outplayed Grubauer as usual if that is what you mean

 

[letsgoavs1921]

Is it your position letsgoavs1921 that since the Avs outplayed the VGK in different periods in the series games that they should not make any changes despite losing? Because that's the point I'm taking away from your argument.

I'm not saying don't make any changes. I'm saying in sports when you have a team that is top 2-3 in the league, and the only thing standing in your way from the championship is winning a hard fought, tossup series with one of the other big dogs sometimes you have to go out play, and hope for the best. This series was a bounce or two away from us winning in 6. I don't see the need to change much. Goaltender would be #1 for me

 

[flyfysher]

I'm not saying don't make any changes. I'm saying in sports when you have a team that is top 2-3 in the league, and the only thing standing in your way from the championship is winning a hard fought, tossup series with one of the other big dogs sometimes you have to go out play, and hope for the best. This series was a bounce or two away from us winning in 6. I don't see the need to change much. Goaltender would be #1 for me

Fair enough. I strongly disagree and believe that series exposed some structural deficiencies on the Avs.