We need grit

[ps241]

We had the toughest meanest baddest team in the NHL in 2013-14 and we got swept in the 1st round. Great fighters, played very physical, it got us nowhere?

I know we missed Buff this season and we will have to address that but.........Pitt won the last two cups without physicality. Chicago won their last two cups while teams like the Ducks tried to run them out of the building because they weren’t physical.

Toughness can help if that’s who you are and you are good at hockey but it doesn’t guarantee shit as we found out. Less tough teams beat us???

We lost when we were big and bad and now we lost when we were gutted with injuries and less big and bad (thanks Buff).

 

[Nickel eye Heel hers]

does a future blueline with Morrissey, Pionk and Heinola pose a problem for us?

If you constantly like getting hemmed in our blue line and never moving the puck into the neutral zone, then yes players like Heinola would be a very serious problem for us.

 

[LowLefty]

We had the toughest meanest baddest team in the NHL in 2013-14 and we got swept in the 1st round. Great fighters, played very physical, it got us nowhere?

I know we missed Buff this season and we will have to address that but.........Pitt won the last two cups without physicality. Chicago won their last two cups while teams like the Ducks tried to run them out of the building because they weren’t physical.

Toughness can help if that’s who you are and you are good at hockey but it doesn’t guarantee shit as we found out. Less tough teams beat us???

We lost when we are big and bad and now we lost when we were gutted with injuries and less big and bad (thanks Buff).

Yes, the extremes will kill you - the season you are pointing out was a year of toughness and nothing much else. You need a little of both IMO -
The Pen's and the Hawks are two examples of teams that got it done without much of a physical presence and I'm all for modeling a team around both - but TBH, they had some pretty significant firepower and overwhelmed the opposition - Chicago also had a very good defensive and played a smart 2 way game.

 

[ps241]

Yes, the extremes will kill you - the season you are pointing out was a year of toughness and nothing much else. You need a little of both IMO -
The Pen's and the Hawks are two examples of teams that got it done without much of a physical presence and I'm all for modeling a team around both - but TBH, they had some pretty significant firepower and overwhelmed the opposition - Chicago also had a very good defensive and played a smart 2 way game.

I think it’s about playing to your strengths and the coach getting it right system wise. Remember how the Pens struggled under Yeo in 2016 and he was fired and Mike Sullivan came in and transformed their system into that speed exit, quick puck movement, attacking game. That was a rag tag D core but the system and skill overcame the shortcoming and played to their strengths.

Coach has to work with the hand he was dealt and fit the system to the talent not make the talent play in a system that doesn’t work.

 

[tntkid]

Bring in a good center and some defense that want to win and are not afraid to hit.

Move out Roslovic and Perreault.
No Buff and No Little should also clear up some room.

 

[tntkid]

Chariot at least had size and a bit of nasty, three of the Jets current D look to be under 180 lbs, both Morrissey and Pionk are pretty small guys for the NHL and Heinola looks to be around 160 lbs!

The bone structure and frame of Morrissey and Pionk is Enstrom small.

Our blueline is lacking big mean defensemen.

 

[cbcwpg]

The bone structure and frame of Morrissey and Pionk is Enstrom small.

Our blueline is lacking big mean defensemen.

6.01 - 176 - Niku
6.00 - 190 - Pionk
5.11 - 178 - Heinola
6.00 - 195 Morrissey

Obvious can't have everyone being big, but having at least 1 top 4 d-man with some size would be a big help.

 

[irunthepeg]

You forgot about Niku. Just kidding, let's trade him, Rosco & Frenchie for a C willing to do anything to win.

This season the Jets were soft & play a perimeter game. I even heard most Jets love the perimeter so much they all live in Oak Bluff.

This is so f***ing good

We had the toughest meanest baddest team in the NHL in 2013-14 and we got swept in the 1st round. Great fighters, played very physical, it got us nowhere?

I know we missed Buff this season and we will have to address that but.........Pitt won the last two cups without physicality. Chicago won their last two cups while teams like the Ducks tried to run them out of the building because they weren’t physical.

Toughness can help if that’s who you are and you are good at hockey but it doesn’t guarantee shit as we found out. Less tough teams beat us???

We lost when we were big and bad and now we lost when we were gutted with injuries and less big and bad (thanks Buff).

Good post (as usual), ps241. It all depends on the style of play for the team and what the strengths/weaknesses are and how you can excuse one weakness for another strength.

If you constantly like getting hemmed in our blue line and never moving the puck into the neutral zone, then yes players like Heinola would be a very serious problem for us.

As I just alluded to, we just need guys who have strong stick skills and can get a good clean pass/exit out of our zone. Smart players. Like Heinola. Forwards need to help out, too.

The thing about Chicago all the years when they won, as with Pittsburgh when they repeated... there was a few things I noticed: they forced their style of game on opponents and then styled all over them using it. With Chicago it was a finesse/skill game. Pittsburgh similarly with a more speedy forecheck. Another thing was it seemed like they were ahead of the curve on what current play style was "in" in the NHL. Whenever a team wins, a bunch of other teams suddenly copy that mold trying to replicate it, usually failing. I think style in the NHL is cyclical. Sometimes it's speed, sometimes it's grit, sometimes it's defense. It's all about where in the cycle we are at and what we play in contrast to that, if that makes sense.

 

[ps241]

This is so f***ing good



Good post (as usual), ps241. It all depends on the style of play for the team and what the strengths/weaknesses are and how you can excuse one weakness for another strength.



As I just alluded to, we just need guys who have strong stick skills and can get a good clean pass/exit out of our zone. Smart players. Like Heinola. Forwards need to help out, too.

The thing about Chicago all the years when they won, as with Pittsburgh when they repeated... there was a few things I noticed: they forced their style of game on opponents and then styled all over them using it. With Chicago it was a finesse/skill game. Pittsburgh similarly with a more speedy forecheck. Another thing was it seemed like they were ahead of the curve on what current play style was "in" in the NHL. Whenever a team wins, a bunch of other teams suddenly copy that mold trying to replicate it, usually failing. I think style in the NHL is cyclical. Sometimes it's speed, sometimes it's grit, sometimes it's defense. It's all about where in the cycle we are at and what we play in contrast to that, if that makes sense.

Trends I am noticing:



Huge second contracts for super stars have changed the game.

Winnipeg had a two year window until reality hit and we lost our advantage.

Edmonton doesn’t have enough cap space or depth while having McD and Drai

Toronto had a two year window and now they are trapped with a very top heavy roster and no cap space.

Stacking franchise altering talent together is no longer a recipe for future success.

Nashville oh Nashville model

David Poile was an innovator. He took a chance on a young Roma Josi by signing him long term in 2013-14 for 7 years at $4 million AAV, in 2014 he signed Ryan Ellis to an extension for 5 years at $2.5 million AAV, he also had the 3rd head on the 3 headed monster Mattias Ekholm for $1 million AAV then got him tied up in 2016-17 for 5 seasons at $3.75 million AAV.

So arguably the best D core in the NHL in Nashville’s prime were under contract for $7.5 million AAV. Even after Ekholm extended they had a season where they had the big three under contract for $10.25 AAV. That was an insane advantage.

Josi got his raise to $9 million and Ellis got his raise to $6.75 million so that advantage has ended. They are also stuck with Johansen and Duchene $8 million AAV each and those guys feel flaky.

Nashville had a very nice Window and I think it’s closed. I expect Poile to make big changes to that team after this off season.

John Chayka tried to exploit this same model but he ended up overpaying for guys like Dvorak and Keller getting too cute

Sooooooo what’s next? What will the new GM formula be in this flat cap world with crippling second contracts to super stars?

Its a game but my thoughts are it’s all about value and managing the Cap. Is it no super stars and no big deals to fading stars (Blake Wheeler or OEL)? Time will tell.

 

[Jet]

I think the issue here is we tend to automatically assume that:

Skill is minus 'grit'
Grit is minus skill

In reality, you can have an extremely gritty team that isn't very skilled (earlier iterations of the Jets), a highly skilled team that isn't very gritty (this seasons Jets), and a skilled team that has a lot of grit (the 17-18 Jets).

What I've seen from some of the examples of highly skilled sucessful teams (thinking Pens and Red Wings of the past) is that they had players who fit thier roles, and they had appropriate skill for their roles.

The Pens picking up Tanev, for instance is a perfect example of this. Is Tanev a big, goony player? No. Is he a highly skilled 30 goal scorer? Hell no. However, as a 4th liner who can fill in on the third line, he is perfectly suited to that role. He skates very fast, pressures extremely well, shutting down passing lanes, and finishing every check. He also has a decent amount of skill and hockey sense to make the appropriate decision and finish off some of his chances.

Look at guys like Zetterberg, Datsyuk, Yzerman. Highly skilled guys, that did not shy away from making hockey plays that might get them hit. They also execute at a level that protected them, because you can't hit what you can't catch, and when you make guys look foolish with passes when they are aggressive with you it forces you to back off a bit, giving them even more room.

A guy like Kane I always expect to get absolutely lit up, but it rarely happens. He doesn't play a perimeter game, either.

We have players who bring neither skill nor grit to their roles right now (Shore, Shaw, Beaulieu outside of the odd big hit, Dahlstrom, Perreault). If you aren't going to drive the play, you sure as hell should be doing everything you can to disrupt the opponents play. The Flames did this very well to us.

Grit can be measured in many ways, and any player can have it, be a plug or a star.

 

[irunthepeg]

Trends I am noticing:



Huge second contracts for super stars have changed the game.

Winnipeg had a two year window until reality hit and we lost our advantage.

Edmonton doesn’t have enough cap space or depth while having McD and Drai

Toronto had a two year window and now they are trapped with a very top heavy roster and no cap space.

Stacking franchise altering talent together is no longer a recipe for future success.

Nashville oh Nashville model

David Poile was an innovator. He took a chance on a young Roma Josi by signing him long term in 2013-14 for 7 years at $4 million AAV, in 2014 he signed Ryan Ellis to an extension for 5 years at $2.5 million AAV, he also had the 3rd head on the 3 headed monster Mattias Ekholm for $1 million AAV then got him tied up in 2016-17 for 5 seasons at $3.75 million AAV.

So arguably the best D core in the NHL in Nashville’s prime were under contract for $7.5 million AAV. Even after Ekholm extended they had a season where they had the big three under contract for $10.25 AAV. That was an insane advantage.

Josi got his raise to $9 million and Ellis got his raise to $6.75 million so that advantage has ended. They are also stuck with Johansen and Duchene $8 million AAV each and those guys feel flaky.

Nashville had a very nice Window and I think it’s closed. I expect Poile to make big changes to that team after this off season.

John Chayka tried to exploit this same model but he ended up overpaying for guys like Dvorak and Keller getting too cute

Sooooooo what’s next? What will the new GM formula be in this flat cap world with crippling second contracts to super stars?

Its a game but my thoughts are it’s all about value and managing the Cap. Is it no super stars and no big deals to fading stars (Blake Wheeler or OEL)? Time will tell.

If I could like this twice, I would

Totally agree about the contracts. I said in the around the league thread but Tavares signing with Toronto really screwed them depth wise, similar to Edmonton. Yeah, I think it's a gamble game you have to play now. Sign them younger and for longer but cheaper. Or trade for contracts like that. Or risk having a 1-2 year window. No more big windows. I think we had a window in 2017-2018 (f*** you, Vegas). It was literally that short because of how the game is now. I think, as much as I love Blake Wheeler, that's a guy you can't rely on or depend on with a big contract at that age or for that much money. A Scheifele contract is what you win with. Look at Ehlers, Connor, Scheifele, even Laine with his 2 year deal. That's a core you win with now. Bring in Lafreniere (if the Jets win him) and you have a top six for a couple years to contend with. They would need to bring in a solid d-man to compliment Morrissey NOW for a 1-2 year deal if they want to make it work.

I have a feeling we will be hampered by a Laine long-term deal in a similar way to Toronto. Same with Hellebuyck's deal and Wheeler's. You gotta seemingly win with a goalie who doesn't cost too much these days.

 

[surixon]

I think it’s about playing to your strengths and the coach getting it right system wise. Remember how the Pens struggled under Yeo in 2016 and he was fired and Mike Sullivan came in and transformed their system into that speed exit, quick puck movement, attacking game. That was a rag tag D core but the system and skill overcame the shortcoming and played to their strengths.

Coach has to work with the hand he was dealt and fit the system to the talent not make the talent play in a system that doesn’t work.

Exactly. The biggest thing this team lacks is an identity. The org needs to decide what type of team they want to be and then build the coaching and player personnel around that identity.

To me it seems we have been trying to mold players to fit a certain style of play no matter what types of players they are. I think we need to try the opposite approach. Mold the system around the players.

 

[Nickel eye Heel hers]

To me it seems we have been trying to mold players to fit a certain style of play no matter what types of players they are. I think we need to try the opposite approach. Mold the system around the players

I would like this a 100 times if I could.

 

[TS Quint]

Yes, the extremes will kill you - the season you are pointing out was a year of toughness and nothing much else. You need a little of both IMO -
The Pen's and the Hawks are two examples of teams that got it done without much of a physical presence and I'm all for modeling a team around both - but TBH, they had some pretty significant firepower and overwhelmed the opposition - Chicago also had a very good defensive and played a smart 2 way game.

Chicago still had Bickel, Shaw, Bolland, Saad gets his nose dirty, Carcillo, Hartman, Ladd, Buff, Seabrook. Etc etc. the Hawks had some grit around.

 

[Muikea Bulju]

The Jets had plenty 3rd-4th-line guys.

They had too few top D, and the injuries to Laine + Scheißele basically doomed them.

They lost due to a lack of top-end-talent this year.

The PP in particular was god-awful without the 2 best shooters in the team.

 

[LowLefty]

Exactly. The biggest thing this team lacks is an identity. The org needs to decide what type of team they want to be and then build the coaching and player personnel around that identity.

To me it seems we have been trying to mold players to fit a certain style of play no matter what types of players they are. I think we need to try the opposite approach. Mold the system around the players.

He wouldn't be the first coach to work to instill a system around the players he has that may not have been the system they grew up on - but I get what you're saying. I'd add that you may also want to go get players that play system you are trying to build around - to an extent, ie; adding grit, two way players, or size. Again, not a complete rebuild but an add.

 

[ps241]

Chicago still had Bickel, Shaw, Bolland, Saad gets his nose dirty, Carcillo, Hartman, Ladd, Buff, Seabrook. Etc etc. the Hawks had some grit around.

Buff and Ladd exited after the first cup which is why I zoned in on their last two cups. They were not completely void of grit but that wasn’t their game at all. Ducks tried to exploit that by running their smallish D out of the series (sound familiar) Keith, Johnny O, Hjalmarsson, Seabrook (had size but was slowing down). Chicago won by turning the other cheek and sticking to their speed game.

 

[Joe Hallenback]

I am big believer in size

Saying that I think the Jets have plenty of size either ready to join the team or will be there soon enough. Stanley,Samberg,Vesa,Kovacevic,Gawanke,Gustafsson,Nikkanen and Lundmark. All have size and skilled enough to be effective players.

Finding a guy like Tom Wilson or Buff are like finding a purple unicorn. They really don't exist out there

 

[surixon]

He wouldn't be the first coach to work to instill a system around the players he has that may not have been the system they grew up on - but I get what you're saying. I'd add that you may also want to go get players that play system you are trying to build around - to an extent, ie; adding grit, two way players, or size. Again, not a complete rebuild but an add.

He is definitely not the first coach nor will he be the last. If you believe in Moes system then get the player types that can excel in it.

The issue is that we seem to continually go out and get or draft player types that need a lot of coaching/rebuilding of their games to excel in it. This seems inefficient in a cap world where you only have so many years of these players on cheap cost controlled contracts.

 

[LowLefty]

He is definitely not the first coach nor will he be the last. If you believe in Moes system then get the player types that can excel in it.

The issue is that we seem to continually go out and get or draft player types that need a lot of coaching/rebuilding of their games to excel in it. This seems inefficient in a cap world where you only have so many years of these players on cheap cost controlled contracts.

I agree if what you are saying is we draft a lot of players that can't play a lick or defense.
Some of the higher profile draftees tend to be lacking in this area - we have a few (and you can also ask the Leafs).

There also seems to be a pattern with many of the high draft picks lately - many of them simply do not play a good all around game and they need to be taught / developed in preparation for the NHL - especially the PO's. If your team is young, the issue is more obvious.
This is not true for all players and all teams but it seems to be more obvious lately.

 

[surixon]

I agree if what you are saying is we draft a lot of players that can't play a lick or defense.
Some of the higher profile draftees tend to be lacking in this area - we have a few (and you can also ask the Leafs).

There also seems to be a pattern with many of the high draft picks lately - many of them simply do not play a good all around game and they need to be taught / developed in preparation for the NHL - especially the PO's. If your team is young, the issue is more obvious.
This is not true for all players and all teams but it seems to be more obvious lately.

My issue is that our coaching staff tends to neuter the style of play they excelled at in order to hammer the defensive aspects home. We draft players who are good skater that excelled off the rush prior to the NHL. Our coach then takes away most of our NZ offense to play a very passive break in system.

In my opinion we should be taking a page from the Hurricanes play book. They also are now filled with a lot of you g primarily offensive players but have tailored a system around getting the most out of them in the ozone while working in defensive schemes that allow them to grow their games without hurting the other areas of the game. They use a lot of overloads in the defensive zone that allows their kids to quickly pressure to regain control of the puck and then quickly fast break. Our kids have a lot of speed, perhaps we should use that to our advantage defensively like the Canes do. Instead we are very passive in our end and tend to rim it around the boards to a stationary winger who then has issues getting the puck out.

Imo Mauroce is overly focused on our defense that it hurts other areas of the game. It isn't an either or proposition. You can play with more aggression and risk in your game while growing the other areas. You can alsk as mentioned alter you dzone scheme to one that can make up for some short comings or better utilizes what you have on the roster.

 

[Buffdog]

Size, like speed, is a tool. You don't need to punch guys in the face, lay them out in open ice, or drill them through the boards. Its about using ylur body to separate the other guy from the puck, or to protect the puck from the other guy.

That said, when you're bigger and stronger, and agile enough to use your size and strength in loose puck and puck battle situations, it is definitely an advantage. I doubt anyone who has ever played the game at a remotely high level would diaagree.

However, you can also use speed. It sucks to get possession of the puck and not even have a second to read the play before somebody has their stick on you. Thats how guys like ehlers and connor cause turnovers in the o zone.

I think that what we need are guys who are willing to crawl over their dead mothers to use whatever attributes they have to battle hard enough to create turnovers and capitalize on them. There's a will to win/killer instinct that this team appeared to lack.

 

[LowLefty]

My issue is that our coaching staff tends to neuter the style of play they excelled at in order to hammer the defensive aspects home. We draft players who are good skater that excelled off the rush prior to the NHL. Our coach then takes away most of our NZ offense to play a very passive break in system.

In my opinion we should be taking a page from the Hurricanes play book. They also are now filled with a lot of you g primarily offensive players but have tailored a system around getting the most out of them in the ozone while working in defensive schemes that allow them to grow their games without hurting the other areas of the game. They use a lot of overloads in the defensive zone that allows their kids to quickly pressure to regain control of the puck and then quickly fast break. Our kids have a lot of speed, perhaps we should use that to our advantage defensively like the Canes do. Instead we are very passive in our end and tend to rim it around the boards to a stationary winger who then has issues getting the puck out.

Imo Mauroce is overly focused on our defense that it hurts other areas of the game. It isn't an either or proposition. You can play with more aggression and risk in your game while growing the other areas. You can alsk as mentioned alter you dzone scheme to one that can make up for some short comings or better utilizes what you have on the roster.

He has no choice but to be focused on our D - that is where the major issues are.
Yes, it hurts other areas - you have a broken link in the chain and the impact is felt across the team. Fix what's broken - the D, and things will improve.
As you said, they throw it up the boards pretty much every time - that isn't something they are being asked to do - that is what you do when you are exhausted from chasing it around your own end for most of the shift. Our D is not good and it needs more than a "system" change.

 

[surixon]

He has no choice but to be focused on our D - that is where the major issues are.
Yes, it hurts other areas - you have a broken link in the chain and the impact is felt across the team. Fix what's broken - the D, and things will improve.
As you said, they throw it up the boards pretty much every time - that isn't something they are being asked to do - that is what you do when you are exhausted from chasing it around your own end for most of the shift. Our D is not good and it needs more than a "system" change.

No disagreements but we have played the same passive man to man scheme for a while now with mediocre results. We need better dmen and we need to rethink how we play in our end.

Edit: there is also always a choice. You can choose to bunker down or you can say, hey we jave an elite goalie so let's open things up and see if our offensive skill can win while our goalie saves our asses.

We know what Maurice prefers but that probably isn't how say Sullivan would have handled the issue if he was here coaching instead.

 

[pucka lucka]

No disagreements but we have played the same passive man to man scheme for a while now with mediocre results. We need better dmen and we need to rethink how we play in our end.

Edit: there is also always a choice. You can choose to bunker down or you can say, hey we jave an elite goalie so let's open things up and see if our offensive skill can win while our goalie saves our asses.

We know what Maurice prefers but that probably isn't how say Sullivan would have handled the issue if he was here coaching instead.

The sign of a coach with limited ability. Do the same thing for 20+ years.