Injury Report: Vol. 4 (Updates in First Post) | Geno Says He's a Game-Time Decision for Tomorrow

[steveg]

Kunitz would be a great 3rd line player, getting 10-12 mins a game. His is an awful 1st line player getting 16-18 mins a game, and powerplay time.

Just like players before him, people don't necessarily hate Kunitz (at least they shouldn't), they just hate the position he's in, and I can completely understand and agree with that frustration.

Sheary played with Crosby and Hornqvist and they were awesome. That line right there has potential to be gigantic for us in these playoffs, and I'd probably say that's what we should see going forward until proven otherwise.

Again, just what I was trying to communicate, and I agree, regarding the Sheary with Crosby and Horny. I wish that would actually happen, more regularly.

Geno's line is the only one we have to figure out, and something tells me he'll mesh well with Kuhnhackl.

I agree Geno would mesh with Kuhn. For whatever reason, I foresee that being something like Malone/Geno was. Kuhn strikes me as somewhat of a Malone type... BUT -- for now, given Kuhn's chemistry with Cullen and Rust, AND given that Fehr could take draws and handle some of the defensive load for Geno while he shakes the rust off, I would like to see Fehr on his wing, temporarily (with someone more skilled -- like BB -- on the other side...)

 

[steveg]

and standing around watching his screw ups become **** ups. He makes bad decisions, some of them stem from laziness and then he won't bother to help clean it up.

You know, this is an excellent point. I noticed Hagelin last night in particular make SEVERAL "screw ups," in terms of giveaways/bad decisions, but when he did, EVERY TIME, he HUSTLED HIS BUTT OFF to make up for it, and usually negated the poor play be re-recovering the puck, either immediately, or several seconds later. THIS, I do NOT see from Kunitz...

 

[xxxxxxxxxxxxxx]

There's absolutely truth to the idea that a lot of the vitriol comes from how he's used. No doubting that whatsoever. I don't hate Kunitz as a person, but I ****ing revile him as a player. He costs us chances, goals, and games with his piss-poor play that has been going on for two calendar years.

I'd be able to deal with him flubbing passes, over-skating pucks, biffing shots, and lazily floating up and down the ice before slowly skating to the bench with his arm in the air (regardless of what was happening on the ice at the time) if he was getting 10 minutes a night on the 4th line, and not making ~$4M/yr. But, the fact that this team has consistently played him in a role that is detrimental to his line and this team as a whole definitely makes me dislike the guy more than I should. He just represents everything that was wrong with the Shero/Bylsma era to me; laziness, arrogance, zero accountability, and meaningless regular season stats.

 

[Riptide]

He's a 4th liner, or press box fodder.

LOL. But no you don't hate the guy.

 

[steveg]

There's absolutely truth to the idea that a lot of the vitriol comes from how he's used. No doubting that whatsoever. I don't hate Kunitz as a person, but I ****ing revile him as a player. He costs us chances, goals, and games with his piss-poor play that has been going on for two calendar years.

I'd be able to deal with him flubbing passes, over-skating pucks, biffing shots, and lazily floating up and down the ice before slowly skating to the bench with his arm in the air (regardless of what was happening on the ice at the time) if he was getting 10 minutes a night on the 4th line, and not making ~$4M/yr. But, the fact that this team has consistently played him in a role that is detrimental to his line and this team as a whole definitely makes me dislike the guy more than I should. He just represents everything that was wrong with the Shero/Bylsma era to me; laziness, arrogance, zero accountability, and meaningless regular season stats.

I fully agree with 100% of what you said here. No arguments. It is extremely maddening...

 

[xxxxxxxxxxxxxx]

The problems are A. they'll never give Kunitz 4th line minutes/duty or scratch him, and B. even if they did, there are better options on the 4th line.

Kunitz is better than a grand total of zero players available with respect to this team's lineup and roster. Sheary belongs with Sid/Hornqvist over Kunitz, and Kuhn does too. You don't **** with Hagelin - Bonino - Kessel. You don't saddle a rusty, coming off injury Geno with the corpse on skates that is Kunitz. And while I could live with him on the 4th line, I'd take Sundqvist - Cullen - Fehr over Kunitz there eight days a week.

Sheary - Crosby - Hornqvist
Rust - Malkin - Bennett / Kuhn - Malkin - Rust
Hagelin - Bonino - Kessel
Sundqvist - Cullen - Fehr

There really is no spot in that lineup that I'd be comfortable, let alone happy with Kunitz occupying.

 

[Empoleon8771]

Kunitz is better than a grand total of zero players available with respect to this team's lineup and roster.

I honestly wonder if people actually believe the crap they spew about Kunitz on here. Like this is a perfect example. Whether people like to admit it or not, Kunitz is our 2nd best LWer on the roster (although Kuhnhackl is quickly winning me over, if he continues to play well I'll say he's better than Kunitz). Sheary playing really well for the last handful of games doesn't make him suddenly better than Kunitz.

Kunitz at this point in his career is a 3rd liner being forced into a role he shouldn't be in because of his quickly deteriorating hands. That's where he's at. He's following the career path of Dupuis at this point (not surprising). His decline is just that much more evident because he's playing with Sidney Crosby on a line that needs to be scoring.

 

[Ogrezilla]

LOL. But no you don't hate the guy.

He's not a good top 6 option for our team. He's not fast enough anymore, and he's an awful fit across from Hornqvist. But he's really a scoring type of player. He might be good on a line with guys like Fehr or Bennett or Sundqvist. Maybe Bonino even. But he'd be an awful fit on a line with guys like Kuhn, Cullen and Rust imo. Replace either of those wings with Kunitz and you make the line less effective. Replace Fehr with Kunitz and you probably break even or maybe even upgrade.

The most important thing is that we have now seen that Sheary can be more effective with Sid and Horny than Kunitz. By quite a bit. If we put Sheary in that role over Kunitz, I will be thrilled. Even if it doesn't work. If we find out that Sully is right and Sheary is more effective with less minutes, fine. Switch back to Kunitz. But Kunitz is playing poorly enough and Sheary is playing well enough that there's no good reason not to try it.

Overall, if Kunitz wants to be effective, I think he should find his way onto a western style team that plays at a slower pace.

I honestly wonder if people actually believe the crap they spew about Kunitz on here. Like this is a perfect example. Whether people like to admit it or not, Kunitz is our 2nd best LWer on the roster (although Kuhnhackl is quickly winning me over, if he continues to play well I'll say he's better than Kunitz). Sheary playing really well for the last handful of games doesn't make him suddenly better than Kunitz.

Kunitz at this point in his career is a 3rd liner being forced into a role he shouldn't be in because of his quickly deteriorating hands. That's where he's at. He's following the career path of Dupuis at this point (not surprising). His decline is just that much more evident because he's playing with Sidney Crosby on a line that needs to be scoring.

Sheary is playing better than Kunitz right now. That doesn't mean he'll stay better. But there's really no debate about which is currently playing better hockey imo, and which is currently a better fit for the way this team plays hockey. Especially on a line with Sid and Hornqvist.

 

[Ogrezilla]

The thing with Kunitz is, even if he's still a decent player, I think he's a horrible fit on this team.

 

[Ogrezilla]

Yeah, Sheary is playing better than Kunitz right now. That doesn't mean Kunitz doesn't belong on the team or that we have 12 better options than Kunitz to play on our team. Until Malkin comes back, I'd want the Pens to alternate Sheary and Kunitz on the top line (mainly so Sheary doesn't get burned out). There's a difference between debating about whether Sheary or Kunitz should be on the top line and then arguing that Kunitz shouldn't even be in the lineup.

Sure, but he should be on the 4th line. I sure as hell wouldn't be moving Kuhn off of the 3rd line for him.

 

[steveg]

Kunitz is better than a grand total of zero players available with respect to this team's lineup and roster.

But, the problem to me here is, again, that word "better..."

Let's look at the roster you proposed.

Sheary - Crosby - Hornqvist
Rust - Malkin - Bennett / Kuhn - Malkin - Rust
Hagelin - Bonino - Kessel
Sundqvist - Cullen - Fehr

When I look at that roster, here's what I see...

TODAY, Kunitz has more finishing ability/likelihood to score a goal (right now, at this point) than:

Rust
Bennett
Bones
Sundy
Fehr
Kuhn
Sheary

Kunitz has SIMILAR finishing ability/likelihood to score a goal (again, right now, at this point) as:

Hagelin
Cullen
(Kuhn and Sheary may be close, soon, and I feel Bennett could if he could stay healthy; I also feel Bones is capable of scoring at a similar pace as Kunitz, but hasn't recently)

Now, obviously, finishing/scoring ability is not the whole story. Not by a long shot.

SO, who do I feel, in that same lineup, that I'd be willing to SIT, and feel comfortable and confident that Kunitz would play a better overall game than, i.e. help the team's ability to win a game more?

MAYBE Fehr, during his worst times after his return from his second injury (Fehr's been a little better, recently, and that version of Fehr I'd rather have in the lineup as opposed to Kunitz). MAYBE Bennett, as I'd not be sure he's physically in a place that he wouldn't get injured (or be mentally thinking about his injury and thus playing tentative). MAYBE Sheary, if he slumps/is ineffective for a few games in a row (and thus give him a game off). That's about it. In other words, he'd be my 13th forward right now, but not "banished to the press box permanently." I'd be looking to rotate him in for a Fehr, or a Bennett, or a Sheary, if needed, for a game here or there.

My point is, he's still CAPABLE of doing a few good things on the team with a frequency that some others can't. BUT -- he's also, overall, more of a liability than nearly everyone else on the team...ESPECIALLY on your top line.

There really is no spot in that lineup that I'd be comfortable, let alone happy with Kunitz occupying.

Bottom line, I agree -- if everyone continues playing at the level they are right now. Once someone's play drops off, give Kunitz a game...

 

[JTG]

I think he's too lazy for a 3rd line role at this point, tbh, and they've brilliantly overplayed him this season so he's out of gas. A major part of his issue is lazy **** and standing around watching his screw ups become **** ups. He makes bad decisions, some of them stem from laziness and then he won't bother to help clean it up.

Kunitz wasn't good on the third line earlier in the season. He's too slow/lazy most of the time to be an effective checking line player, and he's not good enough to bring a scoring element when not gifted time on Sid's wing.

He's a 4th liner, or press box fodder. Especially on this team, with combinations you don't wanna **** with (Sid/Horny need a new LW, Hags/Kessel are a pair that can't be touched, Kuhn/Sundqvist/Cullen/Fehr/Rust are all better options than Kunitz up and down the lineup).

I don't believe Kunitz is lazy. I believe he's washed up. I believe he's playing in a role that's way beyond his overall skill set and ability at this point. I believe that his two biggest qualities - his speed and his physicality - are all but gone. I believe you'd see his physicality ramp up if he wasn't out there so frequently, and if that was his only job. I also believe what you're seeing is a veteran player with deteriorating skills, he knows it, and he's incredible frustrated and down about it. I do not believe Kunitz is a lazy player though. That has never been his style, and I don't think it ever will be his style.

Just remember - Kunitz isn't putting himself on the 1st line. Kunitz isn't putting himself on the 1st powerplay. Kunitz isn't the one putting himself in the poor positions he's in. It's the coaching staff. Thankfully, Sully seems to get it, as you're seeing Sheary creep into that top line.

 

[xxxxxxxxxxxxxx]

I don't believe Kunitz is lazy. I believe he's washed up. I believe he's playing in a role that's way beyond his overall skill set and ability at this point. I believe that his two biggest qualities - his speed and his physicality - are all but gone. I believe you'd see his physicality ramp up if he wasn't out there so frequently, and if that was his only job. I also believe what you're seeing is a veteran player with deteriorating skills, he knows it, and he's incredible frustrated and down about it. I do not believe Kunitz is a lazy player though. That has never been his style, and I don't think it ever will be his style.

I think it's a bit of both, really. He's old, his style for years wore him down, but he also knows his spot is set in stone so he doesn't feel the need to hustle and work his ass off far too frequently.

I've seen the guy simply give up on backchecking his guy or joining a rush for a scoring chance to lazily skate to the bench with his arm up several times. I'm not talking about extended shifts, I mean he seemingly just said "Eh, **** it. Break time." and hopped off. Again, I'm sure part of that is wear and tear coupled with age. I can't abide by that kinda ****, especially not since it's similar stuff that directly contributes to Sid's line struggling mightily from time to time, which translates to this team's chances of success being dramatically reduced.

I loved prime-Kunitz (Cup run, shortly thereafter). I was never worried about his production, because his style of play opened up more space for Sid than his uptick in production ever did. I know that kind of play can't last forever, but I feel like as soon as he started to score more (right around when Sid hit his "peak"), he decided to forsake a lot of what made him and the line successful--particularly come playoff time.

 

[Empoleon8771]

I talk about him like he's directly responsible for ****ing up two season's of Sidney Crosby's career. He has. If you don't like what I post, ignore me. I could give a rats ass whether you agree or not, but it's a discussion about a topic that has big implications on this team's success over the past couple of years, and continues to be an issue. I'm not posting about some popcorn dude shorting me a few years ago and some irrational hatred I harbor for him since. Kunitz is a huge issue, has been for a long time, and will continue to be (and get worse) until he's traded or his contract runs out. Period.

"Kunitz is directly responsible for ruining two of Crosby's seasons"

Yeah, this is the stuff I'm talking about. It's not Kunitz's fault that MJ was a horrible coach. It's not Kunitz's fault that Crosby quit under MJ. It's not Kunitz's fault that Crosby has been extremely prone to making horrible decisions with the puck for some reason this year. It's not Kunitz's fault that the Pens can't run a functioning PP to save their lives. Kunitz is one of the probably 8 or 9 reasons these last 2 seasons for Crosby have "sucked", and definitely not the biggest one.

I also don't even really fully blame Kunitz for his own play. On any other team in the NHL, he wouldn't be fixated on the top line. Hell, he wouldn't even be on the top line on most other teams. That's a coaching issue. It's not Kunitz's fault that he literally can't do what the coaches expect him to do. His issues are enhanced because of him being put in a role he shouldn't be in. It was the same issue with Dupuis earlier in the year. I don't think Kunitz is lazy, I just think he genuinely can't play as much as he's expected to and coasts in the regular season so he can at least have a better shot at helping in the playoffs.

I may ***** about Kunitz often, but I try not to come across like a ******** when discussing topics on a hockey message board.

If this is intended to be a shot at me, this is a massive "pot, meet kettle" post.

Sure, but he should be on the 4th line. I sure as hell wouldn't be moving Kuhn off of the 3rd line for him.

What's your definition of "should be on the 4th line"? Do you mean rotating positions with Sheary every so often? Then yeah, I agree.

Kunitz is on the top line right now because we sadly don't have any better options that can stay there for a full game. It's a crap situation because Kunitz literally can't do what he needs to do on that line. I just wish Sheary had the endurance (would it even be endurance?) to play an entire game on that top line, because Sullivan doesn't seem to think he can.

 

[steveg]

I also believe what you're seeing is a veteran player with deteriorating skills, he knows it, and he's incredible frustrated and down about it.

Now that's a very interesting point. I have a hard time saying he's "lazy," though he LOOKS lazy at times (and no, I don't think it's the "iron!")

But when I think about what you said here, and how vabm8 mentioned that when he "screws up," he doesn't hustle to keep it from becoming something EVEN WORSE, it makes me think you are onto something here. I think your point does seem to account for, and explain, what I'm seeing. Someone who is trying, much of the time, but gets FRUSTRATED with himself that he is not playing up to the level that he's used to, and frustratingly UNABLE to reach that level in a consistent way. In other words, just as you said, he's deteriorating, he can occasionally pull off plays that used to be routine for him, but then he makes a mistake that he shouldn't...and it frustrates him. Which is followed by a lack of hustle, or him skating off for a line change, or whatever...

I could see this being the case...you may be onto something.

Whatever the case, it still stands that most games, he should probably the the 13th forward, on this particular team...

 

[SirBrad]

injury update thread really derailed today

 

[Ogrezilla]

What's your definition of "should be on the 4th line"? Do you mean rotating positions with Sheary every so often? Then yeah, I agree.

Kunitz is on the top line right now because we sadly don't have any better options that can stay there for a full game.

As soon as Rust is back, Kunitz would be playing on the 4th line with Sundqvist and Fehr. And as long as Sheary was ready for Sid's next shift, Kunitz would never be on his line. And until Rust is back and we have 7D, the only time KUnitz would be with Sid is if Sheary struggles or if Sid double shifts with the 4th line. If we give Sheary the chance to take that spot and see that he can't play those minutes, start putting Kunitz back in a few shifts. Ideally, Hornqvist and Kunitz would never be on the ice at the same time.

I would also give Kunitz 2nd unit PP time. He's still a capable 2nd unit net front guy.

 

[Empoleon8771]

As soon as Rust is back, Kunitz would be playing on the 4th line with Sundqvist and Fehr. And as long as Sheary was ready for Sid's next shift, Kunitz would never be on his line. And until Rust is back and we have 7D, the only time KUnitz would be with Sid is if Sheary struggles or if Sid double shifts with the 4th line. Ideally, Hornqvist and Kunitz would never be on the ice at the same time.

I would also give Kunitz 2nd unit PP time. He's still a capable 2nd unit net front guy.

The reason I'd hesitate to run with Rust-Crosby-Hornqvist is that I feel like it has the same issues that Kunitz-Crosby-Dupuis had, except even worse than it was then. At least when they were in their primes, both Kunitz and Dupuis had some sniping abilities. Rust has borderline none and Hornqvist doesn't have much either. Not only would Crosby be the only playmaker on that line in that case, he'd also be the only goal scorer too. At least with Kunitz, he still has some goal scoring talent left. Kunitz today is still a better goal scorer than Rust, Rust being such a poor goal scorer is why I want Wilson-Crosby-Hornqvist to happen more than Rust-Crosby-Hornqvist (I know Wilson is hurt, I'm just talking about in general).

Rust is a great guy to stick next to someone like Kessel IMO. I don't think he would work along Crosby and Hornqvist very well at all.

 

[Ogrezilla]

The reason I'd hesitate to run with Rust-Crosby-Hornqvist is that I feel like it has the same issues that Kunitz-Crosby-Dupuis had, except even worse than it was then. At least when they were in their primes, both Kunitz and Dupuis had some sniping abilities. Rust has borderline none and Hornqvist doesn't have much either. Not only would Crosby be the only playmaker on that line in that case, he'd also be the only goal scorer too. At least with Kunitz, he still has some goal scoring talent left. Kunitz today is still a better goal scorer than Rust, Rust being such a poor goal scorer is why I want Wilson-Crosby-Hornqvist to happen more than Rust-Crosby-Hornqvist (I know Wilson is hurt, I'm just talking about in general).

I wouldn't play Rust with Sid and Hornqvist. I would play Sheary with Sid and Hornqvist. The Rust point is that it gives us 12 forwards and a real 4th line. We need Rust back to make the Kunitz-Sundqvist-Fehr 4th line I mentioned. And as soon as we have a real 4th line, Kunitz would play as few minutes away from that 4th line and 2nd PP unit as possible. So when I say Kunitz should be on our 4th line, I mean exactly that. He should be one of our 3 least used 5v5 forwards.

Until then, I'd use Kunitz how Sheary is being used now. But honestly, I'd ride Sheary as much as possible. If Sheary is ready for Sid's next shift, put him in.

 

[xxxxxxxxxxxxxx]

Sheary should play with Sid/Hornqvist. When Geno's back, he should play with some combination of Kuhn/Rust/Bennett. Hags/Kessel stay with Bonino. Sundqvist - Cullen - Fehr should be the 4th line. I suppose you could put him in Sundqvist's spot, but I don't think Sundqvist has many anywhere near as many errors as Kunitz has since being called up. Partially due to TOI discrepancy, partially due to Kunitz just flat out being bad on the vast majority of shifts.

Hell, even if this ******** "Sheary's effectiveness drops when he plays more" thing were true, throw Geno out with Sid/Hornqvist here and there to get him going as well as give that line a boost.

There is no reason Kunitz should ever see anything above the 4th line with the present construction of this hockey club imo. Maybe in place of Sundqvist, but I don't have a problem with the way Sundqvist has played/performed at all.

 

[Empoleon8771]

I wouldn't play Rust with Sid and Hornqvist. I would play Sheary with Sid and Hornqvist. The Rust point is that it gives us 12 forwards and a real 4th line. We need Rust back to make the Kunitz-Sundqvist-Fehr 4th line I mentioned. And as soon as we have a real 4th line, Kunitz would play as few minutes away from that 4th line and 2nd PP unit as possible. So when I say Kunitz should be on our 4th line, I mean exactly that. He should be one of our 3 least used 5v5 forwards.

Until then, I'd use Kunitz how Sheary is being used now. But honestly, I'd ride Sheary as much as possible. If Sheary is ready for Sid's next shift, put him in.

Oh okay that makes sense, I thought you meant that you'd put Rust there on that top line when he got back. That makes a lot more sense. The issue with Sheary comes up with his supposed inability to play a lot of minutes, that's why he can't be a permanent staple on the top line. He's also rather inconsistent. The Pens LW situation is pretty crappy overall. Outside of Hagelin, you have 2 guys who (supposedly) have to be playing bottom-6 minutes (Sheary and Kunitz), 1 guy that has a very low hockey sense (Rust), a guy who isn't a natural LWer and can't stay healthy (Bennett), a guy that is currently out long term (Wilson) and a guy that's an amazing fit on the 3rd line with Cullen (Kuhnhackl). One of those guys needs to be on the top line and I don't think any of them should be.

In a random aside, the rest of my post basically sums up why I don't think Rust will ever become a Hagelin-like top-6 forward in the NHL. I think he tops out as a TK-like 3rd liner. He just doesn't have the hockey IQ to become more.

 

[Ogrezilla]

Oh okay that makes sense, I thought you meant that you'd put Rust there on that top line when he got back. That makes a lot more sense. The issue with Sheary comes up with his supposed inability to play a lot of minutes, that's why he can't be a permanent staple on the top line. He's also rather inconsistent. The Pens LW situation is pretty crappy overall. Outside of Hagelin, you have 2 guys who should be playing bottom-6 minutes (Sheary and Kunitz), 1 guy that has a very low hockey sense (Rust), a guy who isn't a natural LWer and can't stay healthy (Bennett), a guy that is currently out long term (Wilson) and a guy that's an amazing fit on the 3rd line with Cullen (Kuhnhackl). One of those guys needs to be on the top line and I don't think any of them should be.

In a random aside, the rest of my post basically sums up why I don't think Rust will ever become a Hagelin-like top-6 forward in the NHL. I think he tops out as a TK-like 3rd liner. He just doesn't have the hockey IQ to become more.

Put Sheary there until it doesn't work. And even if he's inconsistent, so is Kunitz. Kunitz makes more legitimately bad plays than anybody on the team at this point. Enough to outweigh what he adds in scoring imo.

I agree Rust is a 3rd liner.

 

[Asuna]

so about those injuries.........

 

[Ogrezilla]

PS: I really think Malkin with Sid and Horny is the way to go when he gets back.

 

[xxxxxxxxxxxxxx]

That's what's so dumb about this team, and the "Sheary's minutes increase, effectiveness drops" argument. Okay, well, play him until he sucks then. We certainly play Kunitz through entire games of terrible play. Other guys don't get that chance, and that's infuriating. And again, if he starts to show that his play is dropping off dramatically, throw Geno out there to limit Sheary's minutes. It'd be a great way to get Geno back up to speed, and it would catch the opponent off-guard.