LeBrun: "...very preliminary discussion between Pittsburgh and Dallas." (Fleury)

[3074326]

They are worth something, which means trading them for a toxic asset like Fleury would be a huge mistake.

Toxic? lol

 

[Mr Misty]

Toxic? lol

Make a list of all the fanbases who want Fleury. Make a list of all the people who are having kittens about NMCs and a list of all the people that are pumped their team gave out a bunch of NMCs and compare the two. In the unlikely event he can't be moved or bought out he will destroy the future of your team. What do you think toxic means?

 

[Price is Wright]

Dallas needs to keep patiently waiting for Price to go UFA.

 

[topnotch]

The comments made by some people about how Lehtonen has a better save percentage than Fleury right now and it's not worth it, shows me that they really don't know about Fleury and his numbers at all, they're basically just taking opinions by haters as gospel and that's the problem.

Fleury until this year was putting up .915, .920, and .921 save percentage. That .920 came about when Bales came on board and helped MAF get back on track. Last year, most Pens fans if they aren't ************ themselves, will tell you MAF was our most consistent player until his 2 concussions and Murray/Zatkoff became the tandem while he rehabbed it.

This year, he's slowly pulling his numbers up, but even then he's a .906 SV%, where as Niemi is .901 and Lehtonen is .902.

Lehtonen and Niemi have been trending down for years, Niemi before he got to the Stars and Lehtonen is a guy that is seemingly always hurt and likely needs to shed some weight to play a more effective game for his size. Steve Mason is the same way, the last 3yrs, he's been dropping. Neuvirth was an anomaly last year.

If nothing comes of this, i am curious who Dallas gets and what they give up. Because as of right now, we Pens fans know Fleury is going to be gone, but the better numbers he puts up, the better it is for us when he is moved as his value goes up, he can easily waive his NMC and the Vegas team can take him for nothing (even though I think McPHee is going to target his boy Grubauer and a good back up plan for him, Fleury isn't where he's going to put his cap space in), but when the dust settles, some team might over pay for Bishop and regret it when his cap space screws their team, of they finally pony up and this time, the Pens have the leverage.

And the last time Lehtonen was as good as Fleury was even last year, was 2011-12 and for Niemi, probably his first year in San Jose.

MAF is a fine #1 goalie but he's not much better than that.

Here are MAF's 5v5 save percentages for the last 5 years,
2016-17: .9169
2015-16: .9327
2014-15: .9270
2013-14: .9193
2013: .9296

And here are Lehtonen's,
2016-17: .9313
2015-16: .9090
2014-15: .9143
2013-14: .9273
2013: .9249

MAF's are better, but not by a whole lot. Both seem to ebb and flow but Kari certainly has a lower low.

Looking over the whole league, 5v5 save% with 5,000 minutes played over the past 4 years - 2014-17 (not sure why the site doesn't have 5 years - 2013-17), MAF ranks 19th with a 0.9250 save%, while Lehtonen ranks 33rd with a 0.9202.

Should the Stars trade for MAF? I'm not sure. He is an improvement but not a substantial one.


As to the bolded, the Pens will never have leverage in this situation. A decision will have to be made in regards to MAF before free agency, meaning that if Dallas and a few other teams that are looking for goalies want to wait for Bishop and others, Pittsburgh will have to buyout MAF. The best Pitt can hope for is a straight swap of another goaltender - Niemi, Lack. I'm not sure that even happens without more coming from Pitt in either retention or picks. The Pens are in a tough spot and no team is going to rush to help them out.

 

[TorstenFrings]

Dallas needs to keep patiently waiting for Price to go UFA.

And in the meantime maybe just just focus on neither taking nor drawing penalties or going to OTs, since their 5 on 5 sv% is apparently great.

 

[topnotch]

Another thing to consider is Nill's negotiation style when he has leverage, which he does in this situation.

When the Hawks were in a tough spot trying to move salary Nill took Sharp but sent back Daley and Garbutt. He also extracted Stephen Johns from Bowman.

To this day that is probably Bowman's worst trade decision.

 

[FirstRowUpperDeck]

Agree both Stars goaltenders are trending down, and MAF is at worst a lateral move for Kari, and an upgrade for Anti.

I think this may happen, because Nill won't pay Honka plus for Bishop. And, if for some reason they think they will get their high powered offense back, Nill may not feel he needs the greatest goalie on earth, at those prices in contract and assets. Get MAF for 2/3 of the Bishop paycheck, and use the extra money to bring another scorer or D into the fold, etc.

If Nill can get MAF for Niemi and little else, it might be his best way to go, since he is protective of his prime player assets. And, if it happens, and MAF declines in his first year with Stars, he can perhaps scour the goalie UFA market, and at worst, he is in the same position he is now.

 

[hellstick]

Does Fleury really help any team NOW? I feel like a prudent General Manager will ride this out, force Pittsburgh to buy out Fleury prior to expansion, and then sign him to a reasonable deal in the summer. That must be desirable to giving away assets for him when most teams out there are solid in goal.

 

[Mr Misty]

And in the meantime maybe just just focus on neither taking nor drawing penalties or going to OTs, since their 5 on 5 sv% is apparently great.

We have the worst pk in history and are 2-10 in OT games. There is no competence of any kind whenever the team has fewer than 5 skaters. Focus on counting down the days in Ruff's deal and getting somebody who can coach this summer.

 

[mitchmagic]

Does Fleury really help any team NOW? I feel like a prudent General Manager will ride this out, force Pittsburgh to buy out Fleury prior to expansion, and then sign him to a reasonable deal in the summer. That must be desirable to giving away assets for him when most teams out there are solid in goal.

Winnipeg desperately needs G help.

 

[Uncle Scrooge]

Winnipeg desperately needs G help.

Meh, i don't think Fleury is going to help.

Our goalie "problems" have blown up a bit here.. For the most part it's the defense that needs to get it together. Hellebuyck is the guy and will be in the future. Pavelec already did the job and gave Helle some time to recharge and work on his game. And even if he continues to struggle we're out of the playoffs pretty damn soon.

That being said, we have the cap space. I'd probably consider it if the Pens sweeten the deal, but not just for Fleury. We could even send back Hutchinson.

Fleury
2nd round pick

for

Hutchinson

Pens don't have to retain.

I've no idea if MAF wants to go to Winnipeg though.

 

[Sidney the Kidney]

944 (7 games) 917 928. Which is the abysmal season there? A buyout of Niemi is 4.25m less cap space than Fleury, and if Mason isn't hitting in the above average range why would anybody think he'd be getting a raise from that contract? Mason with Reese plus cap space is a better bet than Fleury

Why are you only using his time in Philly? That season that I bolded, his overall totals were a .916 save percentage.

In any case, Mason has been in the league 9 seasons, and has had a save percentage at or around .900 in 4 of those 9 seasons (almost half his career). His best season is .928, but other than that season he's never been above .920. So as a team acquiring him, you don't know which player you're getting. Fleury gives you more consistency. Since 2010, Fleury's consistently been between .913 to .921 save percentage. At worst, you're getting a .910-.913 goalie. With Mason, you're more likely to get a .900 goalie.

Fleury's also started 60+ games 6 times in his career (he missed out last season by 2 games due to concussion). Mason's hit 60 games or more only 2 times in his career. Durability matters to GMs. It has value. Knowing you can count on a starter to play 60 games per season over 40-50 games per season is a positive.

I mean, I get that you're not high on Fleury. But there's nothing that indicates Mason's a better option, both in terms of consistency and durability.

 

[ManofSteel55]

Does Fleury really help any team NOW? I feel like a prudent General Manager will ride this out, force Pittsburgh to buy out Fleury prior to expansion, and then sign him to a reasonable deal in the summer. That must be desirable to giving away assets for him when most teams out there are solid in goal.

The biggest flaw in this logic, is that if Fleury is bought out and a free agent, then there will almost certainly be a number of teams inquiring about his services. Calgary, Dallas, Philadelphia and more are all in the market for an upgrade in net, and if Fleury were bought out the only other proven #1 who isn't on the tail end of his career and is available will be Bishop, and he has had an awful season too.

 

[ManofSteel55]

Make a list of all the fanbases who want Fleury. Make a list of all the people who are having kittens about NMCs and a list of all the people that are pumped their team gave out a bunch of NMCs and compare the two. In the unlikely event he can't be moved or bought out he will destroy the future of your team. What do you think toxic means?

Fanbases wanting him means absolutely nothing. Dallas fans seem to be split on wanting him, but its apparent that their management has at least mild interest, so that 50% who doesn't want him doesn't matter much.

Obviously nobody can say for certain which management teams are interested, teams tend to play that sort of thing close to the chest so the public wouldn't know. There are at least 10 NHL teams out there that would be in a better situation with Fleury in their crease than what they will have as of July 1 of this year - Dallas, Philly, Vancouver, Calgary, Carolina, NY Islanders, Buffalo, Colorado, Winnipeg, Vegas. Now not all of those teams will have interest, but I wouldn't be surprised to see at least half of them interested in trading for Fleury.

 

[Mr Misty]

Why are you only using his time in Philly? That season that I bolded, his overall totals were a .916 save percentage.

In any case, Mason has been in the league 9 seasons, and has had a save percentage at or around .900 in 4 of those 9 seasons (almost half his career). His best season is .928, but other than that season he's never been above .920. So as a team acquiring him, you don't know which player you're getting. Fleury gives you more consistency. Since 2010, Fleury's consistently been between .913 to .921 save percentage. At worst, you're getting a .910-.913 goalie. With Mason, you're more likely to get a .900 goalie.

Fleury's also started 60+ games 6 times in his career (he missed out last season by 2 games due to concussion). Mason's hit 60 games or more only 2 times in his career. Durability matters to GMs. It has value. Knowing you can count on a starter to play 60 games per season over 40-50 games per season is a positive.

I mean, I get that you're not high on Fleury. But there's nothing that indicates Mason's a better option, both in terms of consistency and durability.

Because that's when he worked with Reese before. That's kinda the centerpiece of all of what I said, not sure why that is something you missed.

 

[Sidney the Kidney]

Because that's when he worked with Reese before. That's kinda the centerpiece of all of what I said, not sure why that is something you missed.

Okay, then hopefully everything you've said about Fleury's value is only based on since Mike Bales took over as goalie coach for the Pens, and aren't judging Fleury on anything prior to that. Because Fleury under Bales >>> Fleury under Meloche (if you can even call what Meloche did "coaching").

 

[TorstenFrings]

Does Fleury really help any team NOW? I feel like a prudent General Manager will ride this out, force Pittsburgh to buy out Fleury prior to expansion, and then sign him to a reasonable deal in the summer. That must be desirable to giving away assets for him when most teams out there are solid in goal.

Vancouver gave a days away from turning 34 years old Ryan Miller (who pretty much wanted to only sign with west coast teams) a 6m cap hit right after a disappointing season and a horrible playoff performance. Pretty much on reputation alone.

Why does anyone assume that Fleury will end up with some short term bargain bin deal? Like less than Reimer bottom of the barrel.

 

[Dipsy Doodle]

Scoring on great teams playing well is ALWAYS tougher (for teams worse than you). It doesn't matter what style they play. You do realize the Pens have been in the bottom 10 in GA for each of the last 5 seasons ? Fleury's numbers are nothing spectacular. The only thing he's done is stay consistent in the regular season behind a great team. Jeff Zatkoff had over 91 save pct and a decent GAA every year with the Pens. He's probably the worst goalie in the league this year.

That is in good part due to Fleury's consistency. We didn't have stellar defense personnel over that period, and nobody would confuse Bylsma for a defensive coach.

Zatkoff had worse numbers than Fleury with a MUCH smaller workload over 2 years, as opposed to 5. They are not remotely comparable.

Which brings me to your point about the regular season, and that's correct. However, name me "more than a few" (that's a quote from you) teams who are not contenders but have goalie issues. Im guessing you're downplaying a lot of goalies around the league, or putting too much into something that has happened recently. I honestly don't see them.

St.Louis, Calgary, Dallas, and Winnipeg are some of the most obvious choices. Things are in flux from week-to-week, but they're all reasonable destinations.

Exactly, a legit #1 goalie came in and Fleury haven't had a chance since then. Maybe the Pens realized what it is to have a actual great goalie back there?

No **** Murray's better than Fleury. Why are you forming arguments against positions absolutely nobody has taken?

If i were to compile this list, i'd guarantee you none of the goalies in that list got more flack than Fleury over the years.

That has no bearing on why the list would be relevant. Fleury is consistent, and consistency has value.

Those 286 regular season games he played behind a top team. He's struggling right now playing behind the same team and posting significantly worse numbers than Murray. If someone were to trade for him they'd have to

I'm aware. Why do opposition fanbases think these things haven't been thought out? Obstacles aren't insurmountable.

I said it would be a lot easier for teams to take a look if they got him for low $$ to play 1B behind their young guy as the veteran presence, but in most cases the Pens would have to retain so much it wouldn't make a difference whether they bought him out or not. (it was more of a sarcastic throw-in)

There'd be no point in using Fleury as a 1B. It'd be poor usage, and he wouldn't want it.

Maybe im sounding too harsh on Fleury. I think he could be a steady guy to have back there for teams looking for some sort of success. But the problem is i don't think he's better than what (almost) anyone has. It remains to be seen what GM's think of him.

Certain players get stigmas attached to them here and HF brands them untradeable negative value assets. Then they get dealt for better returns than the groupthink expected because GMs have memories longer than fruit flies, and there's collective shock that for some reason never registers the next time.

 

[Dipsy Doodle]

Make a list of all the fanbases who want Fleury. Make a list of all the people who are having kittens about NMCs and a list of all the people that are pumped their team gave out a bunch of NMCs and compare the two. In the unlikely event he can't be moved or bought out he will destroy the future of your team. What do you think toxic means?

Make a list of all the fanbases who wanted Scuderi last year.

He got traded twice. For good returns.

 

[hellstick]

Vancouver gave a days away from turning 34 years old Ryan Miller (who pretty much wanted to only sign with west coast teams) a 6m cap hit right after a disappointing season and a horrible playoff performance. Pretty much on reputation alone.

Why does anyone assume that Fleury will end up with some short term bargain bin deal? Like less than Reimer bottom of the barrel.

Personally, I will be surprised if Fleury gets a 4+ year deal at above 6M per.

 

[Riptide]

Oh look, a pointless post.

No more pointless then some of the **** you've posted.

 

[Riptide]

Personally, I will be surprised if Fleury gets a 4+ year deal at above 6M per.

Most would be. But that doesn't mean he's going to sign for 3m just because PIT (in this example) bought him out and is paying him 7.6m over the next 4 years.

 

[TorstenFrings]

Personally, I will be surprised if Fleury gets a 4+ year deal at above 6M per.

Me too, but people seem to expect him to sign for sub 4m/2 years thereabouts, which is equally off.

Most likely Fleury will make a bit less money per year than on his current contract, but get more term than the 2 years he has left on that. Obviously it depends on what he is looking for most though. That it would be term is just my projection.

 

[brewski420]

Make a list of all the fanbases who want Fleury. Make a list of all the people who are having kittens about NMCs and a list of all the people that are pumped their team gave out a bunch of NMCs and compare the two. In the unlikely event he can't be moved or bought out he will destroy the future of your team. What do you think toxic means?

Destroy the future?? You have got to be kidding. A buyout will not destroy the team, if it comes to that. Toxic?

 

[Honour Over Glory]

If a GM made moves because of what his fan thinks about players or a messageboard feels, he'd be looking for a new job.

Thank god it's not the case and that Dallas called the Pens. Since JR isn't the one shopping him around actively.